Plainswalker's Treant Laminated Bow

[Ueauvan]

Ngeth, Im just going on past fletching receipes. everyone went nuts when pop bows came out and devs never wanted archery to be so good. since then the tradeskill has atrophied. only the true stubborn fletchers bothered continued despite nothing to sell.

i would be very happy if the new stuff is super, i just dont think that the other devs will allow bows to be anywhere near as good as they need to be.

i will wholeheartedly apologise if im wrong however im using past history to help me forecast. tradeskill bows cant be as good as raid bows unless augmented, bow ratios are too low on raid drops so i cant see that being super dps on a fletched bow. we cant put 2handed damage augs in bows so im guessing ratio wont be much better than stonewood, hps wont be 200 raw before augs.

one thing what triggered the changes? dev unhappiness, player feedback (and from who) or what?

whatever happens the benchmark for me is gm armour

[Ngreth Thergn]

Will these be as good as your Meele ability.

No

Will these be as good as Raid required Bows.

No

Will these be the best player made bows?

Yes.

Will these be better than group able drops?

In most cases, Yes.

Unfortuantely I have no control over the overal state of bows, and it is far out of my hands.

[Mineril]

Quite frankly the Plainswalker is an ugrade to my Stonewood. I am at the point in Ranger life when Archery is the best DPS. So for me, these bows are very good news. Not being a raider or member of a powerful guild this will likely be the best bow I can get my grubby little fingers on.

Hats off to Ngreth,

A heartfelt thank you.

[Portlis]

Ngreth, I truly appreciate the response. Atleast we now have a little info to go off of rather than pure speculation.

I can just hope that the new recipes for the plainswalker equivelent bow (and hopefully even the better ones? ) still use most of the same ingredients and can still be made by a single solo person rather than requiring raid drops and full group required ingredients to obtain (ala PoP bows).

[Xodar]

What this is going to boil down to for me is:

The only market for these bows is rangers. Period. Any other class has a far better option for ranged items in effects, hit points, and focuses.

The currently best bow is going to be changed, with a hint that new bows are coming. I cannot understand why, especially since I have invested so much time in gathering components, getting the tinkering done, and researching the recipes. I don't want to gloom and doom, but it's not broke.

No changes for the multi class version were announced. The difference is 1 ft, 20 hp, and a nice amount of saves. The stat additions are mediocre at best, thanks for that 20 Int for my ranger and 15 wis /roll eyes. While those are nice, they have pretty much zero to do with most applications of this bow, since it's the ratio that matters the most by far.

Will these be better then groupable drops? In most cases yes?

So does this mean that the ratio gets nerfed (since it's an oh so huge 2 damage upgrade over the bow 6 expansions ago)? Or does this mean you are counting primals as 1 groupable and we'll see some recipes for legion issue equivalents?

It is just frustrating. The last decent player made bows were from PoP. Here six expansions later we got a whopping upgrade from 42/37 to 44/37. I understand that elemental bows created an inbalance, but that is far and gone now.

As an involved player in a small guild I have had a Stonewood since PoP. I am on my 3rd non bow ranged item, meaning I only swap one in for the occasional ranged fight or to pull with an arrow. My melee weapons are 24/21 main and 26/24 off. The first from a 1 group MPG trial, the second I farmed DUO with my shaman bot. I spent roughly 14 hours this past weekend for my 2 damage upgrade to a situational tool. It still represents a fraction of my melee dps, with all applicable AA's for both melee and archery (1100+ atm).

So why change it? Fletching has been the red headed child of tradeskills since PoP. ZERO arrow upgrades for 6 expansions. Yes, I made discord and drake, no they are not a dps increase in any sense beyonf a parses margin of error. Finally a bow upgrade 6 expansions later, and you are going to change it? And not a positive change from the impression you gave, but a reduction in strength from an item that was already going to be situationally swapped in for any of the playerbase that can form a solid single group or farm plat.

I have finally had a use for my fletching skill, the first that I pushed past 200. I have made 4 of these bows, I have not sold a single one. One went in my bag, two went to guildie rangers, and one to a message board acqaintance who asked nicely and gathered me some components. I KNOW at least 2 well spoken and researched rangers offered input and suggestions during beta, both of them involved tradeskillers and active members of the everquest community and the ranger communities.

If it is not in your hands whose hands is it in? These were feedbacked and discussed before they went live. Noone is OMG uber dpsing with these. The only focus they have I'm not capped on is regen. So whos hands is it in if it's not the devs who test and get feedback for the items. Way to make a change directly in opposition to the playerbase most involved and vocal with it.

I know you are not making the decisions Ngreth, but someone with no real grasp of fletching and archery appears to be. As I said, it's a situational tool for me, but the bows were created with player input, and being changed without any and for no apparent reason.

edit: Perhaps I came off as more abrasive then I intended, and if I did I apologize, I am just frustrated with fletching and having the results of a lot of work recently nerfed after the fact.

[tarajo]

I don't know why people are downing this bow like they are but for me I will tell you it was an upgrade for me and I am very glad they came up with it, and not only myself but almost everyone i met feels the same, so no clue why all the criticizing, yeah there are better dropped somewhere, but this is great! And makeable.. personally i love it.. and ty ngreth + others who worked at getting the bows in, will be looking forward to the new one also. Aug slot sounds great.

[Xodar]

I don't know why people are downing this bow like they are but for me I will tell you it was an upgrade for me and I am very glad they came up with it, and not only myself but almost everyone i met feels the same, so no clue why all the criticizing, yeah there are better dropped somewhere, but this is great! And makeable.. personally i love it.. and ty ngreth + others who worked at getting the bows in, will be looking forward to the new one also. Aug slot sounds great.

I agree these are nice bows. Any item becomes less nice when you remove hitpoints though. I just wrote half a page clearly explaining why I am critical and wary. Everyone I gave one of these to loved it, but it is in no means needing a nerf. Taking hitpoints off it after I made it is a nerf. It wasn't a bug, this isn't a fix, it's a detrimental change.

Any bets on whether the aug slot is type 4 when it changes?

I would love to be proven wrong, but a lot of history leads me to believe otherwise.

[tuis]

Haven't even seen the alternative and people are already kicking and screaming...

[Xodar]

Haven't even seen the alternative and people are already kicking and screaming...

Actually I thought I was articulating a point as clearly as I could.

Perhaps I am wrong, but Ngreth never mentioned new bow recipes, he said new bows. He also qualified that it may not be the best 1 groupable bow. If they take hitpoints off it it won't be, that will clearly be the farshot clockwork armor piercer from Stonebite in Stoneroot Falls, which adds the more desireable 5 accuracy as well as extra hitpoints.

Compound that with frustration. I didn't make 125 hp bows, I didn't give away 125 hp bows, a retro nerf is uncalled for.

I can see no reason to make the change.

[Gorse]

edit: Perhaps I came off as more abrasive then I intended, and if I did I apologize, I am just frustrated with fletching and having the results of a lot of work recently nerfed after the fact.

Abstaining from comments, but if you have to go back and edit yourself, you probably went too far.




Ngreth

Please don't listen yet again to people crying about bows again. (ie read: the crowd that cried until epic 1.5 to be made a 1HS so they could go on to 2.0 version and dump the 1.5, which would have been beneficial fror the same players fixing to benefit from the new Plainstrider).


The Plainstrider is already an upgrade, and any improvements on it will be greatly appreciated by at least some players. All trade skills have been an integral part of my EQ experience and I look forward to making Plainstrider as much as I did for my Trueshot, Raincaller and my Blessed Coldain Prayer Shawl in years past.



Gorse

[Xodar]

Abstaining from comments, but if you have to go back and edit yourself, you probably went too far.




Ngreth

Please don't listen yet again to people crying about bows again. (ie read: the crowd that cried until epic 1.5 to be made a 1HS so they could go on to 2.0 version and dump the 1.5, which would have been beneficial fror the same players fixing to benefit from the new Plainstrider).



Gorse

Comment away, I have been. You quoted the entire edit, which I simply appended at the bottom because I indulged in a little sarcasm (which I left in there). I didn't want that to cloud the real issue, albeit adding Int to the ranger only version was...odd.

The great bow debate is probably not best served here, but since you mentioned it..
A great many people use their epic 1.5 before access to anguish and 2.0 orbs, and based on the devs repeated statements that archery is meant to be a fraction of melee dps, giving us a bow as an epic would either be overpowering per their plan or underpowered compared to other 1.5's. Instead it's a very good weapon for it's tier, and the best 1 hander in the game as 2.0, even if it is fletched. I used a bow for a long time, but my primary concern is max dps. Archery is never meant to be max dps, and only exceeds melee when the melee weapons lag tiers behind the level of the bow (i.e. you're wielding a pair of 15/20's and using an elemental bow). To quote Ngrath in this very thread:
Will these be as good as your Meele ability.

No

The Plainstrider is already an upgrade, and any improvements on it will be greatly appreciated by at least some players. All trade skills have been an integral part of my EQ experience and I look forward to making Plainstrider as much as I did for my Trueshot, Raincaller and my Blessed Coldain Prayer Shawl in years past.
Gorse

Trueshot, Raincaller, Coldain ring and shawl, clockwork talisman, I enjoy tradeskill quests as well. This isn't a quest though, it's a combine for a droppable bow. We are also not discussing improvements, we are talking about losing hitpoints on items already crafted and being used. Items that were tuned to their live versions via player input in beta. Items that have no need to be nerfed now after the fact.

[Gorse]

There is nothing to complain about though. Leave the discussion and crying nerf until after the changes go live.


And getting this bow solo (which I have) is the ultimate cumulation of the solo epic quest. With a 408 trivial level, you pretty much need the new trophy maxed out and your skill maxed out (and the Fletching Mastery AAs) to make it, unless you have a lot of luck on your side.

Hitting those requirements, then going through the process to gather up the parts, hit all the sub combines and getting a successful combine on the bow and getting an item that is an upgrade at the same time is a perfect match for me and my tradeskill needs.

Then to make it better, the item is flagged as tradeable, so I can pass it on later, unstead of rotting in the bank or being destroyed. Then to make it even better the time was taken to make not one, but two versions of the bow (the second being Plainstraide, via a very workable, albiet scary, combine).

Now there is hint, no, straight talk telling us that the bow will be improved even more, and people STILL want to complain.


A lot of time was spent getting this process right, why not wait just a few days and see what happens with the end product.



Gorse

[Ngreth Thergn]

I agree these are nice bows. Any item becomes less nice when you remove hitpoints though. I just wrote half a page clearly explaining why I am critical and wary. Everyone I gave one of these to loved it, but it is in no means needing a nerf. Taking hitpoints off it after I made it is a nerf. It wasn't a bug, this isn't a fix, it's a detrimental change.

Any bets on whether the aug slot is type 4 when it changes?

I would love to be proven wrong, but a lot of history leads me to believe otherwise.

WEll yes.

it does have a 4.

AND a 7.

[Ueauvan]

Gorse i understand what Ngeth's trying to do but the benchmanrk for any tradeskill item has to GM smithed and tailored armour

[Gorse]

Gorse i understand what Ngeth's trying to do but the benchmanrk for any tradeskill item has to GM smithed and tailored armour

Point taken.