Incoming Nerf to Elegant and Last Blood?

[Brael]

Not quite what you were asking for a couple pages back Kyros comparing various BP's but using current stats on various gear heres a comparison I put together a couple weeks ago:

Also, just for completeness, I used all melee Last Bloods, as near as I can tell it's not relevant on the others (Note: Wisdom is ignored in stat totals since SK's don't use it, mod 2's are rated as non percents/5=1, percents=1, st=.5). Enerigiac uses 95% purity and a metal power source. Augs used in all comparisons are 6x stonewarden and 2x 30 ac.

Ultra Simplified:
Sunshard set (80/80/Sun+Stonewarden x6+2x 30 ac):
AC - 1211
HP - 5680
Mod 2's - 145.7
Mod 3's - Some, but not on Lucy to copy.

Serpent set (80/80/Serp+Stonewarden x6+2x 30 ac):
AC - 1211
HP - 5280
Mod 2's - 143.7
Mod 3's - Some, but not on Lucy to copy.

Last Blood set (80/80/LB+Stonewarden x6+2x 30 ac):
AC - 1211
HP - 4960
Mod 2's - 88.5
Mod 3's - None

Tainted Enerigiac set (Metal/95% purity+Stonewarden x6+2x 30 ac):
AC - 1243
HP - 4375
Mod 2's - 109
Mod 3's - None

Draton`Ra (Stonewarden x6+2x 30 ac):
AC - 962
HP - 3855
Mod 2's - 78
Mod 3's - None

Condensed stats:
Sunshard set:
AC - 1211
Stats - 1311
HP - 5680
Mana - 5530
End - 5530
Resists - 1334
Attack - 390
Regen - 41
Mana Regen - 22
DS - 20
Mod 2's - 145.7
Mod 3's - Some, but not on Lucy to copy.

Serpent set:
AC - 1211
Stats - 1311
HP - 5280
Mana - 5130
End - 5130
Resists - 1334
Attack - 390
Regen - 41
Mana Regen - 22
DS - 20
Mod 2's - 143.7
Mod 3's - Some, but not on Lucy to copy.

Last Blood set:
AC - 1211
Stats - 1263
HP - 4960
Mana - 4810
End - 4810
Resists - 1310
Attack - 150
Regen - 25
Mana Regen - 14
DS - 12
Mod 2's - 88.5
Mod 3's - None

Tainted Enerigiac set:
AC - 1243
Stats - 1852 (atleast 100 guaranteed waste due to caps, super high STR)
HP - 4375
Mana - 4225
End - 0
Resists - 1515 (atleast 250 guaranteed waste due to caps... super high FR/DR)
Attack - 315
Regen - 30
Mana Regen - 12
DS - 22
Mod 2's - 109
Mod 3's - None

Draton`Ra
AC - 962
Stats - 1120
HP - 3855
Mana - 3705
End - 0
Resists - 1000
Attack - 290
Regen - 25
Mana Regen - 10
DS - 20
Mod 2's - 78
Mod 3's - None

Detailed Sets:
Base (Elegant+Sublime)
AC: 641
STR: +175 DEX: +134 STA: +167 CHA: +144 WIS: +167 INT: +167 AGI: +140 HP: +3130 MANA: +3130 ENDUR: +3130
SV FIRE: +183 SV DISEASE: +74 SV COLD: +183 SV MAGIC: +127 SV POISON: +127
Combat Effects: +19 Shielding: +7% Spell Shield: +7% Avoidance: +25 Accuracy: +25 Stun Resist: +7% Strikethrough: +7% DoT Shielding: +7% Attack: +150 Regeneration: +25 Mana Regeneration: +14 Damage Shield: +12

Base+8x Sunshard
AC: 1211
STR: +257 DEX: +206 STA: +239 CHA: +236 WIS: +239 INT: +239 AGI: +212 HP: +5680 MANA: +5530 ENDUR: +5530
SV FIRE: +311 SV DISEASE: +202 SV COLD: +311 SV MAGIC: +255 SV POISON: +255
Combat Effects: +51 Shielding: +23% Spell Shield: +23% Avoidance: +99 Accuracy: +81 Stun Resist: +23% Strikethrough: +15% DoT Shielding: +23% Attack: +390 Regeneration: +41 Mana Regeneration: +22 Damage Shield: +20

Base+8x Serpent
AC: 1211
STR: +239 DEX: +198 STA: +231 CHA: +208 WIS: +231 INT: +231 AGI: +204 HP: +5280 MANA: +5130 ENDUR: +5130
SV FIRE: +311 SV DISEASE: +202 SV COLD: +311 SV MAGIC: +255 SV POISON: +255
Combat Effects: +43 Shielding: +23% Spell Shield: +23% Avoidance: +97 Accuracy: +81 Stun Resist: +23% Strikethrough: +15% DoT Shielding: +23% Attack: +390 Regeneration: +41 Mana Regeneration: +22 Damage Shield: +20

Base+8x Last Blood
AC: 1211
STR: +231 DEX: +190 STA: +223 CHA: +200 WIS: +223 INT: +223 AGI: +196 HP: +4960 MANA: +4810 ENDUR: +4810
SV FIRE: +311 SV DISEASE: +202 SV COLD: +303 SV MAGIC: +247 SV POISON: +247
Combat Effects: +19 Shielding: +23% Spell Shield: +7% Avoidance: +25 Accuracy: +81 Stun Resist: +23% Strikethrough: +7% DoT Shielding: +7% Attack: +150 Regeneration: +25 Mana Regeneration: +14 Damage Shield: +12

Tainted Enerigiac
AC: 1243
STR: +562 DEX: +258 STA: +258 CHA: +258 WIS: +258 INT: +258 AGI: +258 HP: +4375 MANA: +4225
SV FIRE: +575 SV DISEASE: +575 SV COLD: +47 SV MAGIC: +47 SV POISON: +271
Combat Effects: +40 Shielding: +20% Spell Shield: +20% Avoidance: +40 Accuracy: +45 Stun Resist: +14% Strikethrough: +20% DoT Shielding: +20% Attack: +315 Regeneration: +30 Mana Regeneration: +12 Damage Shield: +22

Draton`Ra
AC: 964
STR: +185 DEX: +205 STA: +190 CHA: +175 INT: +180 AGI: +185 HP: +3855 MANA: +3705
SV FIRE: +205 SV DISEASE: +195 SV COLD: +200 SV MAGIC: +210 SV POISON: +190
Combat Effects: +35 Shielding: +18% Spell Shield: +12% Avoidance: +35 Accuracy: +35 Stun Resist: +10% Strikethrough: +10% DoT Shielding: +12% Attack: +290 Regeneration: +25 Mana Regeneration: +10 Damage Shield: +20

[Leana]

Because of the rarity of some of the parts, I do know several people that are using Elaborate armor they already had with a LB aug and upgraded just the symbol to Sublime or Exalted.

The benefit of going from Elaborate to Elegant (for non tanks) is no where near as big as going from Eminent to Exalted/Sublime. This is still a nerf, because the quality of the items that are over 2 years and 5 expansions old are being reduced. The "balance" that they are proposing to provide as a compensation for the nerf will not be seen by those that have upgraded to elegant and sublime armor, but would be seen by those that are still in elaborate and eminent armor. It is almost suggesting that the developers would want us to go BACK to the lower level armor because it "goes with the set" for the LB aug.

I disagree. I think that there is one and only one reason the developers chose the implementation that did. The intent of the level 80 armor was to provide player made armor that was:

1. group gear that was appoximately equivalent to T3 group gear
2. raid gear that was approximately equivalent to T3 raid gear
3. a seal to make the bridge between T3 group gear and T3 raid gear

When they were creating the sets, and I do believe they made them as sets, they didn't give any consideration to cross set socketing, which had they considered things more carefully, they'd have realized it was going to be the most likely outcome for most of the players. They never stopped to consider the balance of T3 group gear socketed with level 70 raid augments vs. raid equipment from previous expansions. There are a lot of things to consider when making up armor, and having a piece of armor that is made up of three separate components makes it all that much more difficult to predict all the impacts.

After they got enough input to carefully look at the issue, they realized just how badly they messed that up and tried to come up with a solution on the spot. Their reasoning was that if they were going to make a significant nerf that was going to affect a lot of people in the game, they would need to get word out as soon as possible so people had the earliest warning. They didn't want to take too much time coming up with a solution, because that would impact an already unpopular action. I think that rush to announce their plans was a mistake. Their announcement was premature and only considered inputs from the most vocal side, which is always those who have the greatest heartburn with the problem at hand (in this case, the high end raiders).

Here is the problem they face, and the driving reason behind the change. If you keep the constraints above on the new gear, you cannot nerf the level 80 armor or symbols, because then the armor will no longer meet the goal of being approximately T3 gear. Therefore, the only item you can nerf is the third piece of the pie. Both solutions they chose maintain the intended purpose of the level 80 cultural armor at the expense of the people who acquired gear over an extended period of time.

I think this is a poor solution, one which they will pay dearly for if they implement it. Further, I don't think it has anything to do with the root cause of the issue. It is more treating symptoms of the problem, since they are long past the decision point on the real issue, but that is an entirely different topic.

[Woland]

Cultural armor is a mockery of all other visible armor loot. ... though I like the guy {Ngreth} very much. I think he got caught up in the excitment of the whole thing.

There is no way any of the seals should stay the same, they all need adjustment. I also think armor itself could use some downward revisions.

[Leana]

The "sets" are dev BS to try to make the nerf palatable and appear not to be a nerf. Let me put it simply. Last Blood = an old item. The plan is to make it less powerful one day than it is now. That is a nerf of "an old item". "Sets" are complete BS and never existed until Ngreth made them up in his initial post about the possible incoming nerf. If you don't believe that, then consider that there was NEVER any intention to make level 75 armor until it had to be CREATED (and still has yet to be created actually) to fit this 'new concept' of 'sets'. Don't drink the Kool-aid.

I disagree with you too. I don't think the idea of sets was anything new to the developers. Each level of the armor is designed with three elements, the group armor, the raid armor and the item that converts the group armor into the raid armor. That comprises a set.

It is no accident that the solution that the developers chose talked about these sets and that the solution attempts to maintain the set paradigm. It is how the developer viewed the cultural armor.

Their failing isn't in trying to market us the idea of sets, it is in the fact that they did not envision cross set socketing and the problems it would cause when the created the new sets. Somehow in the creation of the sets, they didn't evaluate the impact that using the conversion item from one set in different sets. It has always been available and in some cases even used, but it wasn't nearly the issue before this expansion.

They aren't trying to sell sets to us because it is some way to justify what they did. They are doing that because it was the way things happened. In fact, their sets and their failure to view the system in any other way is the reason they have the problems they do today.

Only by no longer viewing the system as six sets of armor can you really begin to evaluate the impacts they have. In essence, there are 18 configurations available for each piece of armor. Each of the 18 configurations needed to be evaluated to consider if it had the right power. They balanced the six sets, but failed to balance the 18 configurations.

[Leana]

Here is my theory on what happened and why.

The root cause of this entire problem is the power gain in this expansion. In the previous 3-4 releases, power gain has pretty much flat, expecially for the average raider and (due to the goal of SOE's to keep the top group gear at 70% power of the average raider) the non-raider. This is a reasonable goal providing everyone continues to improve.

The problem was that the average raider stalled basically at the Anguish/Demi/DK level, and the top end raider continued to grow at the expected rate. Therefore, the top group gear couldn't improve either, so most of the low to mid level players were stuck or at least progressing slowly.

This caused balance problems in the game, because it became near impossible to create good group content that suited both raiders and non-raiders. No reasonable gear could be put in the group content, so the raiders were losing interest in that part of the game.

The only way to break this was to increase the power gain for everyone. This expansion did that in spades.

No matter how the power gain is going, your bottom will gradually overtake the places where people are raiding. Hopefully, the raiders will move on to higher level content and the middle will move, making room for the bottom to move upward.

The problem is that the power gain was too steep, so power gain of the non-raider's gear is pushing past the zones where people are raiding. That breaks the goals of the developer to keep non raid gear at 70% power of the average raider. Note: Both standard group gear and cultural armor will push past the zones used by the average raider.

The cultural was immediately apparent, because it was quickly put into production. The group gear is not so apparent, because it will take some time for the players to move into the higher end grouping zones and start farming that gear in earnest. It is also apparent that SOE had no idea how quickly cultural armor would become widely available to everyone. The drop rates were too high making the armor much more accessible than they intended.

Everyone knew immediately the armor was insanely good, but it took some people equipped mostly in Last Blood armor and Anguish gear to jump right to the top of the leader board in order to catch SOE's attention in earnest. Now, they could clearly see that they had something that was broken. What follows is the mess we have today.

There you have my theory. SOE has the fun task of sorting it out for us.

[solithan]

If you read it all you will see they arnt really nerfing the Old items, just the new incarnations of it. Lastblood + elaborate + eminate will still be the exact same. Yes they are decreasing stats on lastblood, but you couldnt use a lastblood by itself, so you really have to look at the whole peice of armor, and if you do, they are just moving stats around not nerfing it. Now the nerf comes with the new Elegant + sublime + lastblood, which is a new combination.

Uh, yes your saying what I'm saying. "they are decreasing stats on lastblood" = nerfing last blood = old item.
"new combination" =old item can be used in a new way


When they were creating the sets, and I do believe they made them as sets, they didn't give any consideration to cross set socketing, which had they considered things more carefully, they'd have realized it was going to be the most likely outcome for most of the players. They never stopped to consider the balance of T3 group gear socketed with level 70 raid augments vs. raid equipment from previous expansions. There are a lot of things to consider when making up armor, and having a piece of armor that is made up of three separate components makes it all that much more difficult to predict all the impacts.

Hit the nail on the head here. They never addressed people moving augs to new sets.

[solithan]

Here is my theory on what happened and why.
There you have my theory. SOE has the fun task of sorting it out for us.

I agree with you entirely. And they have chosen the easiest path of sorting it out by nerfing the Seals. LOL

Good summary.

[Archus]

I disagree with you too. I don't think the idea of sets was anything new to the developers. Each level of the armor is designed with three elements, the group armor, the raid armor and the item that converts the group armor into the raid armor. That comprises a set.

It is no accident that the solution that the developers chose talked about these sets and that the solution attempts to maintain the set paradigm. It is how the developer viewed the cultural armor.

Their failing isn't in trying to market us the idea of sets, it is in the fact that they did not envision cross set socketing and the problems it would cause when the created the new sets. Somehow in the creation of the sets, they didn't evaluate the impact that using the conversion item from one set in different sets. It has always been available and in some cases even used, but it wasn't nearly the issue before this expansion.

They aren't trying to sell sets to us because it is some way to justify what they did. They are doing that because it was the way things happened. In fact, their sets and their failure to view the system in any other way is the reason they have the problems they do today.

Only by no longer viewing the system as six sets of armor can you really begin to evaluate the impacts they have. In essence, there are 18 configurations available for each piece of armor. Each of the 18 configurations needed to be evaluated to consider if it had the right power. They balanced the six sets, but failed to balance the 18 configurations.

If that was true there would have been a 75 level of cultural armor at launch. I don't have the links atm, but I recall Ngreth saying a couple times in the initial couple weeks post-SoF launch that there no plans to ever put in a level 75 armor level. The fact that they are going back to put one in tells me that this is all made up on their part.

Also, despite all the complaints, I know the devs are smart people. To think that they 'did not envision cross set socketing' is to basically call them completely stupid. Besides, they spent the first couple weeks defending the 'cross set socketing' as intended.

Anyways, I'm just nitpicking, because in general I agree with most of the other stuff you posted in your 3 long threads.

[Zacatac]

Everyone knew immediately the armor was insanely good, but it took some people equipped mostly in Last Blood armor and Anguish gear to jump right to the top of the leader board in order to catch SOE's attention

But again, the "leaderboard" being referred to is Tank Class when Sorted by AC.
Use any class who doesn't care about AC, or use any other stat besides AC, and the raiders are still very much on top.

Top magicians have 4000 more HP than me, and 6000 more mana. They have focus items with far more power. It will take much more than a few sublime symbols and last bloods to put me anywhere near them.

[Zopharr]

The "overpower" in my opinion, and from what I remember reading from dev posts is not just hp but also the AC. For tanks, this is very important. With the increased mob difficulties in SoF, AC is playing a much greater role in a tanks ability to handle content.

The interesting thing is looking at the magelo of one of the most vociferous of the folks calling for the nerf, is that the Solteris armor *does* have more AC with the purity aug and the right powersource.

The folks calling for the nerf are comparing gear withough augs to fully augged cultural/sublime/last bloods, conveniently omitting the powersourcfes/purity augs.

[Zopharr]

I don't think the idea of sets was anything new to the developers. Each level of the armor is designed with three elements, the group armor, the raid armor and the item that converts the group armor into the raid armor. That comprises a set.

It is no accident that the solution that the developers chose talked about these sets and that the solution attempts to maintain the set paradigm. It is how the developer viewed the cultural armor.

And yet before SOF roll-out, Maddoc talked about folks being able to upgrade either armor, type 11 aug, or LB aug, talking about the 'flexibility' of the system. And after SOF roll-out they stated that they had looked at the last Bloods in the new armor and determined that it was powerful, balanced.

I don't buy that they didn't think about Last Bloods in the new armor, if that is what you mean.

[Catweazel]

Good summary leana.

I would add one other root cause problem as I agree with most of what you said.

Timing was never a factor when considering the original design....that is timing or rate of entry of items into the game. I am pretty sure Ngreth will have designed appropriate drop rates for post launch - but as we all know that got royally screwed up even prior to launch.

The second timing factor, is that on paper, I believe all the cultural, group and raid armor in SOF is well balanced within the expansion. What the paper design doesn't show is that the rate at which group and raid gear appears into the game through the expansion life is different from cultural, even allowing for correct drop rates, simply because of the cross socket switching people have done.

The longer we wait on this issue, the less of an issue it will become. When end game raiders are wearing their 1200hp items of visible armor they will be seriously unconcerned about anyone wearing 700HP cultural. The problem is that they got beaten in a class race on EQplayers and did not like it.

The rest - as they say - is history. I just hope we all stay around in a great mood to see it.

[Aldier]

They knew about cross-socketing because the issue existed from using Bazu augs instead of LB augs. AND with the rarity of the silk armor component at the GM level (pre- cultural revamp) the coarse spider silk, MOST casters were just fine using the Master level armor with GM level symbol.

If you want to argue that drop rates were too high on cultural armor at the pre and post SoF launch periods resulting in a flooding of the market at the very beginning with tier 3 armor they expected to take some time for group people to get into, then yes. I agree. And the solutions/corrections/adjustments to the drop rates of those items is a direct result of that and I do not really have any problem with that.

This is a problem of perception. The top end raiders saw they were losing their edge over the mid tier raiders and that even casual groupers were getting DECENT armor. The huge inflation of stats in SoF is the cause of this problem. The cultural armor is balanced around Tier 3 group armor and IS balanced compared to that. The reason they got upset is that the group and mid-tier raiders got their cool new powerful items before they did. The solution is NOT to nerf 5 expansion old content. The armor is BALANCED when compared to Tier 3 group armor. The raid top end raid content armor has not been seen yet because it will take time for the elites to unlock and discover all of their 1000+ hp/mana items that restore their "edge" they are used to having over the rest of the player base.

I think they had an idea of balancing the following configurations:
Elaborate + Eminent + Last Blood
Elegant + Exalted + Serpent
Elegant + Exalted + Sunshard
Elegant + Sublime + Serpent
Elegant + Sublime + Sunshard
Elegant + Sublime + Faycite

Again, the people crying for the nerf want a nerf to the stats based on the ac/hp for TANKS being overpowered. The result though, is not only do these people get nerfed (or balanced) but the people that are already balanced (casters/priests) get knocked down too.

To balance casters is to overpower tanks. To balance tanks is to UNDERPOWER casters. The developers claimed the items are balanced taking into account the WHOLE item as it is for casters. The elitists claimed it is overpowered looking at 2 stats. The developers change their position that the ENTIRE piece is OVERPOWERED because of 2 stats?!?

[Brael]

The interesting thing is looking at the magelo of one of the most vociferous of the folks calling for the nerf, is that the Solteris armor *does* have more AC with the purity aug and the right powersource.

34 AC more across the entire set when using the highest AC power source. At the same time it has 585 HP less across the entire set. Take a look at my comparison above although it turns out it's not 100% accurate as it ignores heroic stats therefore adding additional hp/mana to the set of 80/80/LB's (120-152 hp depending on class for stamina... in the case of SK's, 144), which would actually bring metal to 34 AC more for 729 HP less, although the 8 heroic stamina in the case of the 80/80/LB also means higher softcaps and effectively removes some of that 34 AC as well. Unfortunately knowing just how much heroic AC raises the AC softcap is something which is unknown currently and isn't likely to be figured out for awhile still so the best that can be done there is speculate. Assuming it's 1:1 (not too unlikely seeing as how a point of heroic int/wis is 18 mana and sta is 15-19 hp) that would actually then reduce the difference to what's effectively 26 ac for 737 HP in the case of warriors or 24 ac/729 for Knights.

[Aldier]

34 AC more across the entire set when using the highest AC power source. At the same time it has 585 HP less across the entire set. Take a look at my comparison above although it turns out it's not 100% accurate as it ignores heroic stats therefore adding additional hp/mana to the set of 80/80/LB's (120-152 hp depending on class for stamina... in the case of SK's, 144), which would actually bring metal to 34 AC more for 729 HP less, although the 8 heroic stamina in the case of the 80/80/LB also means higher softcaps and effectively removes some of that 34 AC as well. Unfortunately knowing just how much heroic AC raises the AC softcap is something which is unknown currently and isn't likely to be figured out for awhile still so the best that can be done there is speculate. Assuming it's 1:1 (not too unlikely seeing as how a point of heroic int/wis is 18 mana and sta is 15-19 hp) that would actually then reduce the difference to what's effectively 26 ac for 737 HP in the case of warriors or 24 ac/729 for Knights.

What items have heroic AC?