Incoming Nerf to Elegant and Last Blood?

[Zolina]

> Thier thought seemed to be if they nerfed the LB, Serpent, and Sunshard augs,
> people would work harder to gain and upgrade to the Faycite augs.

Hmm, my thinking is that if they kept Last Blood augs the same but made Faycite augs, say, twice as good as they are now, there'd be the same motivation.

[solithan]

What I dont get is, only the seals are being nerfed yet everyone seem to lump the armor and symbols into the nerf bandwagon.

Seriously from day one the stats on the armor has sucked and needed fixing. Why spend the extra money on the better armor when all it net'd you was maybe 20-40hps. This encouraged putting the better augs in the least expensive armor. Moving the stats from the seals to the armor will encourage folks to upgrade the armors as intended.
They've already said that folks that dont have Seals will get a boost in stats, shouldn't this make people happy not upset? I guess everyone that got the armor and symbols also got seals to match. If thats the case they shouldn't be affected as the stats from the seals will be moved to the armors.

Are they attempting to force an armor set? Sure but that seemed to be the original intent.
Was it obvious that it wasn't working as intended from day one? the net result was what they wanted but how it got there wasn't.
Did they take their ... time fixing this? Yes indeed.
Are people pissed off? Yeah but for the life of me, I can't really figure out why. Honestly, I've read about 100 of these posts and most folks are complaining about stuff mostly just to complain it would seem, half the folks dont have seals and wont be affected, the ones that do and spent the money to upgrade symbols and armor will lose out some but its unclear as to how much and more then likely its not going to be all that bad. But maybe I'm the optimist, so their new upgrades werent as huge an upgrade as they first wanted, lots of items get adjusted when it first comes out this shouldnt be a suprise, will it still be an upgrade? I'm betting yes. I think it comes down to the fact that folks fear/hate change.

Such is life I supose. They've already said they are proceeding with this so why complain.

[KyrosKrane]

Did I mention I like shared spreadsheets?

I've set up another one to help us get a handle on how the stats actually compare. If anyone could help fill it out, it would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.editgrid.com/user/kyroskr...mor_Comparison

Fill in the stats for the breastplate of each dropped armor set or combination. Use the top dropped set for each expansion, if there's more than one. Don't include purity upgrades, just the base stats. If you have any questions, please post here.

[Zopharr]

These are their claims and I cannot verify if they are balanced, just going on what was stated in the EQLive thread. Thier thought seemed to be if they nerfed the LB, Serpent, and Sunshard augs, people would work harder to gain and upgrade to the Faycite augs.

This line of reasoning just makes me /boggle. 'Folks will work harder for Faycite."

Like they wouldn't otherwise?

[Zopharr]

They've already said that folks that dont have Seals will get a boost in stats, shouldn't this make people happy not upset?

-->snip<--

Did they take their ... time fixing this? Yes indeed.
Are people pissed off? Yeah but for the life of me, I can't really figure out why.

IF they had done this prior to launch . . . yes, folks would be happy.

IF they hadn't stated right after launch that they had looked at this and had decided that it was OK (whereupon lots of folks started making gameplay decisions basaed on it, to include spending lots of in-game resources and time). . . yes, folks would be happy.

IF after saying 'this is fine,' and THEN appearing to cave three weeks later to some elite raiders carping on the boards - well after two developers stated this was ok - then folks get a bit upset.

I know that I am out a lot of plat if this goes through - I made in-game economic decisions and time utilization decisions based on what developers said right after SOF launched.

I know that SOE is oput a lot of credibility. Pretty sure it is out a few accounts as well. Right now mine are set to expire in two months

Such is life I supose. They've already said they are proceeding with this so why complain.

Perhaps to vent.

Perhaps a naive hope that since they caved once to a few folks, they may rethink, and decide to stick with what they originally said (which which a lot of folks acted upon) in order to try and regain credibility with a larger portion of the customer base before part or all of that portion stalks off in disgust.

Note: Criticism of SOE management above is NOT targeted at Ngreth - at least with his effort to make the elaborate armor more valuable to non-raiding groupers as part of the fix he is trying his best to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[solithan]

Ok, I get that people like to vent and some folks know that a few devs read the board and perhapse will take pity and make sure things dont end up for the worse. That makes sense.
Communication from SOE is poor at best always has been always will be, if I'm to understand you correctly mostly people are upset and complaining, not just to complain but because they were specifically told one thing and another happened. Call this a bait-n-switch a change of heart or persuaded by the bla bla.
I'm not going to call you out here but do you happen to have the link to the post where they said "everythings fine here now thanks how are you?" I'd just kinda like to read it to see what was promised.

well after two developers stated this was ok - then folks get a bit upset.
A couple folks said it or they said it as the team? Sounds like they weren't all in agreement at the time and they changed their mind. Now they seem to be in agreement.

I guess I'm jaded in that I accept folks will change their minds about stuff. Seems like it happens all the time, especially at SOE.
Doesn't canceling an account over an item nerf seem a bit excessive? I realize it impacts play and kinda sucks but it suddenly makes the game not worth playing? I fail on tradeskill combines all the time and have lost countless pp but I never though screw it I'm done and I've lost just about every roll on loot possible yet I keep playing. Maybe I'm weird.

[Valyant]

It needs to have the equal level focus and still have plenty more ac and hit points than what drops in the same raid zone. Example:

Current Tss raid arm mold = 460 hp 41 ac block 5 unaugged
Current Cul Arm with sublime = 380 hp 42 ac block 3 unaugged

Now compare the 2 with last blood but both still with no type 8 or 7 aug.

Current tss raid arm mold = 460hp 41ac block 5 unaugged
Current Cul with sub and Lb= 590 hp 87ac block 3

Now here is the problem-- If you nerf the last blood or the serpent essence to have nearly equal stats to the tss mold no one is going to go to the trouble of spending millions of plat on the 4a device or the tradeskills and dkp when for the cultural with even weaker focus and sooo much more trouble to make. I mean looting a tss mold which rot very fast in guilds, be handed 3 trash drops which drop like water in a rain forrest and go camp a power source in ag or fc that is uber easy for equal stats and even better focus. This would make no sense and make tradeskill for raiders useless.

Problem number 2-- So you make the cultural combo have equal focus to the loot that drops where the person is raiding. Well same problem as above. If stats are equal or very close no one is going to go to the huge trouble of making cultural gear when they could just bend over and pick equal up on a raid and not have to deal with getting all the stuff together or spending millions of plat.

Problem number 3-- If you leave the focus where it i and very weak and nerf the stats down where it is still better than where you are fighting but not great then 2 things may happen. Either people using the gear are gonna be pissed and rather have the better focus for not much overall hp gain or its gonna still be too high for the high end raiders who want to keep everyone in check.

What is the easiest solution overall? Leave it alone. The folks who want it nerfed arent gonna be happy as long as anyone else plays the game differently than they prefer them to. Folks have been thrown a bone with some stats, very weak focus to make up for the stats, and a small way to close the gap. It just doesnt do anything but make folks in higher up guilds a lil miffed at what happens to everyone who raids in every expansion. This is the only expansion for 1 year, who cares some mid raiders have decent stats compared to others for a month or 2. They will all soon be way behind again and the high enders will have forgotten. Please leave it be.

[Zacatac]

Another problem with this whole thing is people are going to "balance" the armor out as if they have Last Bloods in every slot now. Just because a handful of tanks actually have 8 LBs doesn't mean all of us do. In fact I'm pretty sure I'll never have 8 LBs. Do you think a guild is going to stay in DP for years to outfit everyone with a full set?

[Catweazel]

There is a good summary Nolrog did concerning who said what on the DEV side:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/po...opic_id=124761

[Sharptalon]

Did I mention I like shared spreadsheets?

I've set up another one to help us get a handle on how the stats actually compare. If anyone could help fill it out, it would be greatly appreciated.

Fill in the stats for the breastplate of each dropped armor set or combination. Use the top dropped set for each expansion, if there's more than one. Don't include purity upgrades, just the base stats. If you have any questions, please post here.

I keep asking this question and it doesn't really get a proper answer. When comparing TBS armor why are powersources not included? I mean I understnad the the people wearing them do not like the way they drain, but in all honesty the armor was designed to be used with a Powersource.

I think that is a major issue when comparing the Elegant/Sublime/LB-Bazu vs Solteris armor and it skewers the comparison in one direction.

Sharp

[KyrosKrane]

To me, power sources are something of an odd duck. From what I've been told, if you equip a power source only during raid time, each power source will last you maybe one week of raiding. And on average, you get something like 30 power sources per clearing of Solteris (assuming everyone spends raid currency on power sources), which means that more or less half your guild will have a power source at any given time.

With that low a drop rate, I'm not sure how fair it is to include power sources in these comparisons. It's not an always-on thing, but it does add significantly during crunch time when you have it equipped. Add in the variability in stats for power sources, and it becomes a guessing game. A power source that removes AC and adds mana/endurance may be great for a caster, but no tank in his right mind would make that tradeoff. What about a power source that adds AC/hp but reduces all mod2's? How do you value you that?

For comparison purposes, I tend to value a power source at 50hp and ignore the other stats. That's assuming that the other positives and negatives more or less cancel each other out, particularly across classes. That's just my guess, though.

[Leana]

I guess everyone that got the armor and symbols also got seals to match. If thats the case they shouldn't be affected as the stats from the seals will be moved to the armors.

That is a false assumption. Many of the people affected by this change will not have the matching seal for the armor. I think it shows how out of touch you are with the issue that you would even think that is true.

[KyrosKrane]

I posted this in the Primal Scream thread, but I suspect people will miss it there.

The combined stats of elegant/sublime will likely not be changing. If anything, it may get a slight boost.

The combined stats of elaborate/eminent will be getting a major boost. This is inevitable if stats are moved off last bloods and onto the base armor/symbol.

In short, the group version of cultural armors will stay the same or improve. It is NOT getting nerfed.

Now, the raid-dropped type 12 seals are getting changed. Last bloods, Serpents, and Sunshard seals are getting reduced stats. Some of that reduction is moving to the base armor (which improves the group version, as I noted). LB stats are moving to elaborate/eminent, and sunshard/serpents stats are moving to the new level 75 armor and exalted augs. Faycite stats are moving to the elegant/sublime; however, the devs have stated they're pretty happy with where the level 80 set is (elegant/sublime/faycite), so I wouldn't expect much change.

As a result, the only combination that will be "nerfed" AND currently exists is elegant/sublime/last blood -- and to a lesser extent, elegant/sublime and both sunshard and serpents, but the devs have stated from the beginning that those two combos are overpowered compared to dropped gear. The main fix for that is the new level 75 armor.

The only question is, then, what is "just right" for the stats on the elegant/sublime/last blood combination? Note that this ONLY affects the raid version of the cultural armors, not the group version.

[thomenthechanter]

Leana's absolutely correct... Last Bloods aren't candy. They don't drop like leaves off a tree. And the Serpent seals are even harder to come by, apparently. Your average mid-tier raider will have perhaps three of them unless they've spent a lot of plat or time to dig up more.

I consider myself a mid-tier raider, being part of a force that is moving to TSS very shortly, and I am very nearly Solteris-keyed. However, I have not one Last Blood to my name, and nearly all of the cultural is going to update the gear I do have even without it. I'm actually going to be sticking *discordant* seals in these things, as that's all I've got. Moreover, since we're moving to TSS, I'm not likely to see a single Last Blood 'til we start farming Demi on off-night, unofficial raids. It'll take me a long, long time to get eight of them.

[Sharptalon]

To me, power sources are something of an odd duck. From what I've been told, if you equip a power source only during raid time, each power source will last you maybe one week of raiding. And on average, you get something like 30 power sources per clearing of Solteris (assuming everyone spends raid currency on power sources), which means that more or less half your guild will have a power source at any given time.

With that low a drop rate, I'm not sure how fair it is to include power sources in these comparisons. It's not an always-on thing, but it does add significantly during crunch time when you have it equipped. Add in the variability in stats for power sources, and it becomes a guessing game. A power source that removes AC and adds mana/endurance may be great for a caster, but no tank in his right mind would make that tradeoff. What about a power source that adds AC/hp but reduces all mod2's? How do you value you that?

For comparison purposes, I tend to value a power source at 50hp and ignore the other stats. That's assuming that the other positives and negatives more or less cancel each other out, particularly across classes. That's just my guess, though.

I along with you can't say I have any experience with Powersources, yet. But the drainage and drop rate of an advertised part of that armor that I'm sure was tuned around being included, should have a large inpact in comaring it with other armors.

The drop rate and drainage issues should not be tied to the Cultural issues. They are a etensive part of Solteris armor and the TBS expansion, therefor need to be included.

I've also seen people use the monk armor as a comparison on EQlive which twists the discussion cause monk armor always has had lower AC, but the LB's are static no matter which class wears it. It's those kind of things I think weren't taken into account when the Dev team made their first "nerf" announcement and hope it gets included when they make thier final judgement.

Sharp