Incoming Nerf to Elegant and Last Blood?

[Aaneras]

Last bloods don't drop in deathknell.

They do drop from mobs that flag you for Deathknell access, however.

[Chaotic]

OK, I'm a mid tier raider. I spent 6 months getting all 8 of my Last Blood seals, while others spent theirs on DPoB gear instead. Now the new Cultural armor comes out, and of course I start working on getting that stuff... But now news is its too good. OK, I can maybe see some nerfing to this new cultural stuff, if its making Sol raid gear look bad. But what I hear is your going to nerf Last Bloods. Are you kidding me? And to cover that up with all of this talk of armor sets? If the new armor is too powerful, tune it down a bit, some adjustment this soon I can understand. But years old gear nerfed because of this new stuff makes no sense.

[Roanne]

No devs have commented on this issue since Saturday. Suppose they havent noticed?

[Deviator]

they have noticed.... they have the head in the sand thing going on.... if i dont see it, it will go away lol

[wayshaper]

IF they chose the path of altering the stats on the augments, then, to ballance out the loss, the raid augments they MUST have equivilant raid level focus effects and not the watered down version of the focus they currently have else they will be almost totaly useless and no one will bother with tradeskills at all as there is no point in it (and im sure some folks would not be bothered by that at all)

on side note,

The first introduction of cultural was kunark era and it obsoleted pohate/fear raid armor,

Blue diamond cultural (Luclin era) obsoleted velious raid gear

Planes of power tradeskilled armor obsoleted Luclin raid gear

and so on and so on

so whats problem with SoF player made gear obsoleteing the TBS raid stuff?

an additional note, i can see part of the argument that they put forward about the armor, fact is that it only takes 1 person to make the armor, and when he puts it up for sale, numerous players can benifit from it thus its possible for 1 person to outfit several guilds, were as the only initial effort was 1) acquireing the skill and 2) completeing the quests to make the items.

When blue diamond cultural went live, i was able to mass produce large qunatities and i sold them very reasonable price to every non-raiding guild i could and to casual raiding guilds. The amount of hate tells i recieved in game from the more hard core crowd was quite crazy. Nothing they could do about it cause i was able to farm all my own drops. The results of this mass production of armor caused a major shift in power on the server causeing it to shift from 2 guilds competeing for Ssra / Vex thall to over 7 guilds competeing for same content.

When don went live, again i was able to mass produce (again could farm my own drops via multi boxing, and had several blacksmiths / tailors ) and it realy realy upset alot of the raiders even further (i had been black listed for joining raid guilds by that time) they were screwed, cause if i knew they were in a raid guild, i refused to sell to them or even make the armor (eventualy they got their own blacksmiths but that took em awhile) While the introduction of "instanced" zones took away the hard core competition that was the core of the game with planes of power and previous expansions. Compeition still existed and the results of my mass produceing this armor caused some changes again here as well.

(these last 2 comments are to show that 1 person can have a drastic affect on the game when able to mass produce these items and make them available to the general population instead of select crowds, The so called "ubers" are affraid for their position / status in the game that this armor will cause, and beliveing that all their work has now been rendered null and void, and that they will have crazy compeition now in the new expansion as other guilds close the gap with this new gear)

[Sorkin]

To be honest, I'm not really sure why the new cultural is under such heavy attack. Everything in SoF is overpowered compared to previous stuff. Elegant+Sublime armor without a raid slot 12 is around 410 HP/mana plus whatever you can buy in the DoN camps for the slot 12. If it's a leg/chest, you can get a 40 hp/mana 5 to all resists aug. If it's another slot there's not much that's worthwhile. However, it has a type 7 aug slot instead of a type 8, and absolutely no focus or melee effect. Ignoring the focii/effects is a huge mistake. a 5% better focus over a 15k mana pool is generally worth FAR more than an extra 100 hp/mana.

Single group T2 armor is 310+ hp/mana infusible, which means really they are 333 HP/mana with 30 to 35% to level 80 focii. My guild just broke into tier 2 of DPoB, and can easily single group Fortress Mech/Guardian.

Last Blood seals are only available to raiders. The easiest mobs they drop from are probably the Sverag named, but those guys are 10k+ hitters and no slouches. They bring Elegant+Sublime+LB to around 620 HP/mana max with a 45% to 70 focus. As compared to a 40-45% focus to 80 and 510 HP/mana on single group stuff (or easily raided) in SoF. The T3 named are significantly easier. It takes our tip top players to single group them, but they are easily 2 or 3 grouped by our guild. Just because T3 and T4 were tuned for single group uber players, doesn't mean those are the only people getting that stuff. Lower tier guilds can raid these zones very easily.

Also take into account that people, like myself, had to drop nearly a million plat per slot just to buy the components for Elegant/Sublime, then add the 200k+ to make the LB into a real aug, whereas T3 and T4 required just the one drop from a smallish raid.

Regardless of what happens to LBs, the gap between the top guilds and the mid tier guilds will close rapidly unless they nerf ALL of the groupable drops in SoF. Targetting LBs after so many people have put so much time and plat into them doesn't seem very fair. Plus, it makes raiding DPoB and DK pretty pointless, since we can't even trade decent focii for a few extra HPs/mana.

[Aldier]

Regardless of what happens to LBs, the gap between the top guilds and the mid tier guilds will close rapidly unless they nerf ALL of the groupable drops in SoF. Targetting LBs after so many people have put so much time and plat into them doesn't seem very fair. Plus, it makes raiding DPoB and DK pretty pointless, since we can't even trade decent focii for a few extra HPs/mana.

This gap will only shrink until the top end guilds get into the SoF raiding and start showing up with the 1000+ hp/mana items and regain their advantage over the mid-tier guilds. This is the other major point that some have mentioned. This new armor needs to be compared with raid armor from the SAME expansion as the comparison point not prior expansions. When you compare pure grouper at 350 with mid tier raider at 600 to top end raider at 1000 there is still the separation that the top end and even mid tier raiders have over the group(s) of players below them.

[Tattedsoul_Zek]

Sad

This makes me very sad. Since SoF launch I have seen last bloods that were previously rotting or going for very very little dkp, to people spending almost their entire load of dkp on them. I'm talking months and months of saving dkp on 1 last blood. I myself still wear elaborate / eminent / last blood combos. It's not much of a jump over CoA gear, its the ac I favored and the slight hp upgrade. Although I've been farming my arse off and spending large amounts of plat. I now have 3 porous loams and a couple tantalum ores saved up. I have seen tanks in my guild jump from #40 on the server (via eqplayers.com) leaderboards to being in the top 10. Just from making elegant gear, sublime augs and transferring their last bloods. I have also seen a huge...huge increase in the amount of ores being bought /barter which shows alot more people are getting interested in tradeskilling. The drive to accomplish your goal of making your own armor, or being that select <class> smith when they are limited on your server. My server alone has maybe 3 high elf gm smiths I can think of, and heck I can't think of a single Dwarf smith. Lately, people are picking up thier hammers and sewing needles and learning valuble trades. The gear is fine the way it is, it's intended to last a year, Last bloods are a few years old. Im willing to bet that half the player base or more, has chars with them. If not mains, im sure they love their last bloods on their alts the way they are. Nuff said.

[Zacatac]

Well I will re-post this here and be done with the multiple discussions across SoE boards.

Cultural Armor vs. Raid Armor, the caster point of view

Much has been said about the AC/HP values of the cultural armor. Suddenly finding a cultural/lastblood geared tank with Anguish/Demi loot in the other slots sitting in the top 25 of some leaderboard (when sorted by AC) doesn’t sit well with the raiders.

However, I’m a Magician. So, starting with a base set of the previous set of silk armor/augs and last bloods, I created the following sample profile –

http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1379492

Now, taking that a step up and inserting the new level 80 set of armor/augs, but still using the same last bloods, I get the following –

http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1379492/366434

A net result of +2358 HP, +2270 Mana, +48 PR/DR, and +112 MR/FR/CR. Very nice, took a lot of effort to create, using rare drops and/or very expensive to buy. We are talking millions of plat here.

You’ll notice I didn’t list AC. We all know the AC is superior, but I’m a caster and really, it isn’t relevant to me.

Now, let’s put together a set of nice Phased Energeiac raid armor –

http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1379492/366436

A net result of +2480 HP, +2733 Mana, +232 PR, + 224 DR, +190 MR, +182 FR, +190 CR

It looks like the net result of raiding is still an increase in the stats over full cultural, especially for resists.

Ok, so let’s looks at some focus effects now.

Magic damage Focus
Last Blood – 50&#37; to 70
Raid gear- 65% to 77 (on hat)

Fire damage Focus
Last Blood – 50% to 70
Raid gear- 65% to 77 (on arms)

Detrimental Spell Haste
Last Blood – 23% to 70
Raid Gear – 23% to 77 (on legs)

Pet Focus
Last Blood – None
Raid Gear – High level pet focus (on gloves)

Heal focus
Last Blood – 50% to 70
Raid Gear – 65% to 77 (on boots)

Now honestly, do you think I would pass up any of this gear? Do you think I’d rather have a low level focus instead of a nice high level focus if I had the choice?

The cultural gear is an alternate path for people to travel from level 70 to level 80. It’s certainly a good way to get some HP/Mana increases. However, it is not the best path, nor should it be considered the only path. It’s certainly the most expensive path!

I’m a casual player who raids a couple nights a week. I’m a tradeskiller who has spent 8 years leveling up his skills instead of his levels or AAs. The cultural gear upgrade is the path I will most likely take, because I’m not a high end raider. But again, if I really had the choice of gear, I’d take the phased energeiac without hesitation.

[Pyraxis]

Amen, Zac. Amen. I could give two rat's asses about AC. AC matters for tanks, and that is what was broken on the Last Bloods. We all knew this, players and devs alike. So now people are shocked that AC is too high when Last Bloods are inserted into Elegant with Sublime. Well no kidding. So now, instead of just changing the AC on the Last Blood augs, which should have been done long ago, we're going to nerf the entire thing. Let's forget that the foci ends at 70 and no one in their right mind would want to keep a level 70 foci when they are level 80. But if they are willing to take that power cut, then they should get the benefit of more hp/mana. In the grand scheme of things, does 200 more hp REALLY make a difference when you're up against things that hit for 2k? Oh wow, you lasted an extra swing...but you're still dead. Grats.

[hiyawathadan]

Do we yet have a timeline for when this will happen? Is it still going to happen considering that this change would alienate so many people, when leaving it alone alienates far fewer?

[Catweazel]

All that can be said has been said. All that shouldn't be said is now being said.

The jury has taken note of what was said and is deliberating.

A verdict will be pronounced soon and the world of Norrath will never quite be the same again.

[Unapuma]

Seems like a January patch for the cultural stats retune but it's still a while away.

[Zolina]

I'm curious why they're not nerfing the armor/symbols and adding stats to the seals instead of the other way around. The seals are the raid component to the armor, it'd make more sense to make the best seals have the biggest impact. Also, reducing the power of the Last Blood would make the DoN purchased augment option less detrimental, we would have entirely storebought armor comparable to raid-augmented armor.

Here's how I'd do it:
1. Keep all the pre-SoF cultural armor, symbols, and seals unchanged.
2. Decide what Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood stats would be appropriate (I'd say a significant but not ridiculous boost over Elaborate + Eminent + Last Blood).
3. Subtract Last Blood from that total, distribute the remaining stats to the Elegant armor and Sublime symbol.
4. Boost the level 75 and level 80 seals so the Elegant + Sublime + 75/80 Seal combination has the same stats as it currently does.

My choice would be to make Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood exactly halfway between where it is now and where Elaborate + Eminent + Last Blood is.

[Aldier]

Partly because they are happy with the fake "sets" that Ngreth wants to create.

Elaborate + Eminent + Last Blood is balanced to where they want if for level 70 players use.

Elegant + Sublime + Faycite is balanced to where they want it compared to level 80 raid armor in SoF.

Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood is stronger than what they intended.

These are their claims and I cannot verify if they are balanced, just going on what was stated in the EQLive thread. Thier thought seemed to be if they nerfed the LB, Serpent, and Sunshard augs, people would work harder to gain and upgrade to the Faycite augs. The problem with that, is even with 5 more levels and new spells and aa's available to people and better "groupable" gear, the raid content is still difficult. TSS raids are still needed to realistically do Solteris raids. Some of the early SoF raids are geared towards TSS and Solteris level guilds to be able to handle, but the majority of the raiding I thought was aimed at the post-Solteris raid guilds.