Incoming Nerf to Elegant and Last Blood?

[Aaneras]

If we're talking about the health of the game you're better off looking at structure than you are in designing "better" or "more committed" players. What purpose do the timesinks serve in older content? The all-guns-blazing gang are long gone, and the barriers erected to slow them down are far more challenging to the people for whom they are new.

I don't think SoF - or an annual expansion cycle - will change this dynamic at all. Gear can help make it possible for smaller crews to progress, so the impact of cultural is real but indirect. The negative psychological impact of reducing it is much more significant at this point than the actual alterations in the gear.

[Leana]

If we're talking about the health of the game you're better off looking at structure than you are in designing "better" or "more committed" players. What purpose do the timesinks serve in older content? The all-guns-blazing gang are long gone, and the barriers erected to slow them down are far more challenging to the people for whom they are new.

Really? Last time I checked, all the barriers erected to slow down the all-guns-blazing gang get easier with each expansion. More levels, more AAs, better gear you can purchase in the bazaar basically trivialize just about every aspect of the game designed to slow down the cutting edge raider. I pretty much solo'd all the parts leading up to Vex Thal Emperor fight. I can solo some of the POP raid encounters and expect that most of the rest can be single grouped. Anguish flagging is trivial, so is the DODh flagging. I mostly soloed the faction quests for FC, though needed group help on my AG faction. Those things get nothing but easier as time goes on. The latest expansion ha further trivialized those, as people can buy Anguish level gear and better from the bazaar. It takes fewer people who are higher level and better equipped to beat any encounter in the game.

Consider this. Our guild is beating content that leading edge guilds beat two years ago. We do it with fewer people. The point to any event is beating it with the force you have. Either you have sufficient people with good enough abilities to beat it or you don't. The challenge is determined by availabe force vs. set event.

[Aaneras]

We appear to be not communicating well Leana. Examine the pace of progression - visit

http://www.lavanet.no/progress/

When you do this, you'll find that there is either no correlation between when raid forces start content and how long it takes them or a negative correlation. People are willing to put up with cumbersome and months-long flag and faction procedures to break into new content. The people coming along 2 years later don't have the same incentives, and I'm hard pressed to think of why it is good design to maintain the same entry barriers when the content is no longer current. What is true in principle does not play out in practice, and it's getting to the stage where things are breaking down.

In principle timesinks end up being surprisingly insensitive to actual difficulty. You need to kill 1000 mammoths and bears to get faction; you're limited by their spawn rate even given nonstop slaughter. You get 9 AE blockers from a Demiplane boss win, there is a 5 day lockout timer... 30 days to get the blockers to a full raid force as a stone cold minimum regardless of what the force actually is. On a weekly schedule, 6 weeks even if you walk in the door and beat all of the events on the first try and everyone shows up for all of the raids.

Opening up the earlier tiers of the raid game - not changing the actual encounters, but making them accessible - would really open up the raid game to a much broader base of players and would do EQ a world of good. The only downside that I see is coding, but changing keys and flags is far less intensive than monkeying around with gear.

[Aldier]

We appear to be not communicating well Leana. Examine the pace of progression - visit

http://www.lavanet.no/progress/

When you do this, you'll find that there is either no correlation between when raid forces start content and how long it takes them or a negative correlation. People are willing to put up with cumbersome and months-long flag and faction procedures to break into new content. The people coming along 2 years later don't have the same incentives, and I'm hard pressed to think of why it is good design to maintain the same entry barriers when the content is no longer current. What is true in principle does not play out in practice, and it's getting to the stage where things are breaking down.

In principle timesinks end up being surprisingly insensitive to actual difficulty. You need to kill 1000 mammoths and bears to get faction; you're limited by their spawn rate even given nonstop slaughter. You get 9 AE blockers from a Demiplane boss win, there is a 5 day lockout timer... 30 days to get the blockers to a full raid force as a stone cold minimum regardless of what the force actually is. On a weekly schedule, 6 weeks even if you walk in the door and beat all of the events on the first try and everyone shows up for all of the raids.

Opening up the earlier tiers of the raid game - not changing the actual encounters, but making them accessible - would really open up the raid game to a much broader base of players and would do EQ a world of good. The only downside that I see is coding, but changing keys and flags is far less intensive than monkeying around with gear.

Either your typing too fast, or you have no clue how demiplane of blood works as a raid zone. You only 6 blockers from each of the Tier 1 boss mobs (plus chance of random drops from trash). You cannot just loot the same one 4 times either, you need each of the 4 unique ones. On top of that, anyone who thinks they are going to just waltz in and defeat events like Redfang on the first try or Hatchet are in for a bit of a suprise. These events have nuiances that make them unique (good or bad). Also, the AE is not required to be removed to "beat" the expansion. You can have 0 AE blockers, show up with a raid that progresses through and kill Mayong.

Anguish had a simple progression setup in it as well. You had to defeat the bottom 2 or top 2 raid NPCs to get a discordant orb. Also you had to defeat all 4 to get to AMV and defeat him to get to OMM. This is not roadblocks designed to slow people down. It is progression.

Compare the Tier 2 demiplane loot with Tier 1. You will notice it is better. This is why you have to do the "easier" events first to get to the harder ones.

It is rediculous to think that just because content is not current means ALL restrictions of mob accessability should be removed.

[Catweazel]

Our guild has been around since Day 1 more or less. I was not present then, and in fact I am not sure any original founders are left playing. The guild changed leadership in about 2001 and that leadership remains to this day. Many of us have belonged to this same guild for 4 or 5 years.

I am certain our guild is not unique.

We progress at a slower pace because it suits our members, many of whom have only ever been in one guild, but they have outside committments which take precedence (military, family, job etc).

We are absolutely and fully committed to everything we do, and to read people implying otherwise is insulting. Our attitude however is vastly different from end game raiders. We appreciate our members and our friends across the server. We want to "win" as much as the next person, but we do not do that by being derogatory, insulting, demeaning and vicious.

We have completed every raid encounter up to DoN from every expansion, and are now progressing through Demi Tier 1. We are not stuck - although we slow down for a wide variety of reasons at times. Our average guild raid attendance is 35, and based on our gear and skill we would take on any other guild on any event any time. We are as skilled as the top end raiders. We have Solteris flagged members (who did it in Anguish armor) and we have Tanks who can solo AG named - also in Anguish gear. We are not gimps, slackers, undeserving or whatever other insults have been thrown at us for daring to challenge the "cultural" issue.

We do not have issues with the game or the design of events. We don't care for trash clearing, but we do it. We don't mind flagging people ( we have over 80 regular members) - someone will always step up for "flag days" or to help newer members get keys.

The fact that the "cultural" issue became a play style war is what has upset / galvanized me into responding to outright lies, accusations and other insulting remarks. Personally I could care less what happens to cultural. What has been wrong in all of this is original statements from Developers stating "working as intended" on more than one occasion through Beta and Live release. Regardless of the claims to the contrary by the Developers (what else are they going to say) the perception is that their about face is purely the result of an influential, vocal and jealous minority. As I have stated on many occasions now, the real issue has become a customer service issue. There is no "win-win" anymore - only a recovery, a post mortem, and a funeral for what used to be.

[Leana]

Aaneras,

Frankly, those charts are pretty much gibberish to me, probably due to the fact that there is only one guild I am interested in as far as time it takes to solve content. That would be Memento Reejeryn.

I think the biggest problem in us talking is that we have widely different views of the world. You look at content and consider it as an impedement to your progress. The quests and things that are there hinder your "catching up" to upper level guilds. You appear to be focused on the end of the progression and jeolous of the fact that at the present rate your guild is progressing, you won't get there, or if you do the prize will be old and tarnished.

On the other hand, I look at all that content you consider a block or timesink and think of it as things to do in the game. I had fun killing mammoths and bears (I assume you mean the ones in Icefall). I do most of the quests, and some of the repeatable ones over. I actually try to visit all parts of all of the zones, just to see what's back there. If you actually do the content and have fun doing it, then generally, the faction works itself out. So, all those timesinks are really part of the design of the game.

Now, I know you probably don't enjoy that part of the game, but I'd like you to consider that if you weren't in such a rush to pass it up, and if you didn't just think of it an impediment, you might actaully enjoy it a bit more.

Now, about those bears and mammoths you mentioned; I went from someone the giants in Valdeholm would spit on and not give the time of day to ally in one evening...almost entirely solo. The faction quests you are complaining about are not nearly so intrusive as other faction quests for other content. In fact, I considered them trivial. This, by the way, is probably 100 times easier than it was for the high end raiders who did these faction quests before they got returned. So, you see, your previous complaint that faction is more of a challenge for slower progressing guilds is false, at least in this case.

I know you would like SOE to go back and open up raid content for people. They have repeatedly stated that they have no intention of doing that. Therefore, I suggest you learn to accept it if you plan to enjoy the game. It is a dead issue, and worrying about it is counterproductive.

This is also quite off the topic of this thread.

[Leana]

Catwealzel,

Are you responding to my posts? I fail to see how you could consider anything I posted as being derogatory, insulting, demeaning and vicious. I am in a mid level raiding guild, and I have been in other small raiding guilds that collapsed.

When I talk about commitment and focus, I was talking about that being placed to one goal at the exclusion of all other goals. "We progress at a slower pace because it suits our members, many of whom have only ever been in one guild, but they have outside committments which take precedence (military, family, job etc)." This is your commitment and the focus of your guild. Winning those raids and progressing is important, it just isn't the most important thing in your guild.

I hope this clarifies my previous statements and any issues you might have with them.

[Kross]

A Last Blood makes the whole thing raid gear. Armor+Symbol while technically 2 items is 1 item since the type 11 is exclusive to it. The same is true of Armor+Symbol+Type 12. It's one item not three, a part of it comes from raids. That makes the whole thing a piece of raid gear in my mind. So yes, I view it as Eminent+Sublime surpassing older raid gear to be just fine, it's new gear (even though it's global the whole drop rate thing especially since they fixed it provides sufficient limitations). Bloods make it raid though and as such it shouldn't be on par with Solteris gear... mid/high AG/FC is fine, a 70/70/LB was already at mid level AG/FC (infact, 1 hp under Solt gear is fine with me... that makes it technically worse).

why are you comparing last bloods with 80 armor/symbols to level 75 gear. the reason why i ask is...

That was cleaverly done. By focussing on a given and explaining it to the nth degree, you avoided the issue all together. So, since you missed the mail, I'll state it more clearly.

Why is it ok for group loot to obsolete raid content, but not raid + group drops? Any raid force who can get a last blood should be able to get T4 group armor eaiser.

clearly the anguish and demi gear is getting outdated by group content. should the mid tier folks be in up in arms about their raiding being wasted?

last bloods with elegant/sublime land where in the tiers of sof? tier 3, so why are we comparing them with tbs raid gear? this expansion is going to last a year...

[KyrosKrane]

I posted a comparison of SoF dropped/upgraded armors with cultural, including last bloods, in the comparison thread.

[Aldier]

While your comparison is showing how the new SoF group armor compares to a raid armor, it does not show how Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood compares with raid armor from SoF. Tier 1 and tier 2 raid armor from SoF is what the Elegant/Sublime/LB needs to be compared with. Other level 80 raid armor, not level 75 raid armor from prior expansions.

[KyrosKrane]

Good point. If you can point me to a few chest items that drop from tier 1-2 raids, I'll happily add them to the comparison.

The reason I listed the past raid armors is that the dev comments have been fairly specific, about elegant + sublime + last blood invalidating most dropped armors from DoDh, TSS, and TBS. They state that elegant + sublime + faycite is balanced against appropriate SoF drops, and elaborate + eminent + last blood is balanced (sort of) against DoDh drops. The imbalance specifically happens when you combine the level 80 armors with level 70 raid drops to produce armors that are superior to pretty much everything else you can get in that level range for raiders.

My comparison was intended to debunk that theory. It shows that sublime + elegant + last blood is only slightly overpowered, probably by about 40-50hp. Last bloods specifically are probably overpowered by perhaps 5-10AC, but the base armor is fine. Stats and mods are a wash across armors, so I think the Last Bloods can get away with their extra AC due to the seriously outdated focuses -- even group content has focuses that are two tiers above Last Bloods now. There's also the issue of class-specific focuses and click effects on dropped armors that cultural cannot have, not to mention the extra aug slots on dropped armors that can power it up even further.

[Zopharr]

It would be one thing if there was a flat playing field at the start of each expansion. Competition takes a completely different color when only a small group has even the opportunity to experience new content. It takes a very, very ugly turn when that small group campaigns to get the gear of less-advantaged players crippled - and the developers agree.

That's pretty much how I see it.

The game used to be a lot more level early on. Tradeskill armor would come out that was on par with gear from the previous expansion - the original enchanted cultural matching Planes drops, for example, and the blue diamond cultural in Luclin which was comparable to the Kael/Skyshrine quest armor for most plate folks and pretty much outclassed Thurg gear. Keyed raid zones were limited to one per expansion - Veeshan's peak, Sleepers, VT - so 'family' guilds that raided only once or twice a week could raid almost everything the 'big boys' could, even if with probably with less success [bad flashbacks to multiple Overking raids for Zoph's epic]. Access to the keyed zones earned raiders a significant edge in weapons, clickies and other slots, though, so raiders would have an edge over non-raiders. But we'd be talking 20% or so, rather than the chasm we have now.

Then comes PoP and almost everything is keyed for progression (initially even for experience), setting the pattern for the expansions to come. Family guilds start to flounder as raiding entities as keying becomes a nightmare for non-mandatory attendence guilds. 'Catch-up recipes' aren't provided, and the gap between raid gear and non-raid gear begins to grow. This in itself isn't necessarily bad - I don't think too many folks begrudge hard-core raiders better gear - but starts creating problems as mobs start getting tuned for PCs with raid gear in later expansions. 'RvR' becomes more and more skewed toward mandatory attendence raiders (again, the keying issues).

Start tuning content towards raid-geared folks; require elaborate keying schemes for access to raid zones; eliminate mechanisms to allow non-raiders to 'close the gap' to a level where they are able to deal with group content without raiding...you pretty much squeeze out the casual players. Coincidentally, EQ reached peak subscriptions during PoP, and the playerbase has been declining ever since.

* * *

I thought that SoF was a turn back towards the original design philosophy, with the group gears, and the new armor. Mid-tier raiders and groupers all got some pretty big boosts - either up front as Leana pointed out, due to the drop rates being higher than intended, or as SOF progressed. When questioned, designers specifically comment on the armor and say 'it is good.' Then we get some folks complaining, and comments like:

It When new content comes out, who generally get their weenies stepped on? The people about 4-5 expansions behind the curve. Never before have we seen a universal boost to everyone except those raiding the final 2 expansions, but that's what's happened here.

And somehow we're supposed to roll over and accept this? We might lose the war, but I'll be ****ed if I don't go down without a fight.

The contempt on the part of a lot of these high-end raiders just astonishes me. And then...SOE says they will fold.

What multiple developers said multiple times had been looked at and was 'powerful, but balanced' is now apparently gamebreaking. And this is for a maximum of eight slots - folks further along in progression will have better non-visible gear, better weapons, be more balanced in terms of focii....We will still have to all the same farm content, we just had a chance to maybe reduce it by a bit.

SOE deciding to toss away their credibility by going back on what was said by multiple developers multiple times on something which is going to have very short term impact on player ratings, won't result in mid-tier guilds skipping content and pulling ahead of current top-tier guilds, but which - Heaven forfend - might make the game more enjoyable for the "least accomplished 50%" as one 'leet' raider refers to us...well, right now I'm leaning towards going inactive and letting my subscriptions expire in if this goes through. I've been playing for over six years, and I've never been this disgusted with the game-or, more specifically, SOE.

Garshok

P.S. I DO have the utmost respect for Brael (even though we may disagree on the 'need' for a nerf ), as he has approached opponents on this here and on the SK boards in an evenhanded and respectful manner (as well as being a great class correspondent), and for Ngreth, who even if he is overruled on this is at least trying to find a way to help groupers with the potential changes to the base armor. Though I do hope that SOE reconsiders doing anything.

[Woland]

If you played EQ for more than 2 mos you know this is the game that has long history and continuity. If you want a game where every expansion resets all previous content, EQ is not a game for you.

Anything that has 70 Seal is not 80 armor, it's not even 75 armor, it's kept usable to help players still raiding that content. Whatever those players got they should say thank you to Ngreth and not {complain} how it should be better.

[Zopharr]

If you played EQ for more than 2 mos you know this is the game that has long history and continuity. If you played EQ for more than 2 mos you know this is the game that has long history and continuity.

Perhaps if you had joined this forum more than three weeks ago you would already be aware that I have been playing far more than two months, and am quite familiar EQ's history, continuity - and in some cases discontinuity.

If you want a game where every expansion resets all previous content, EQ is not a game for you.

I haven't asked for that.

I've stated that I think that it would be beneficial for EQ to return to the more open design philosophy that enabled such spectacular growth in the first few years - before they switched to a more closed design philosophy (a discontinuity there) which just so happens to coincide with the constant decline in player base since late PoP.

Anything that has 70 Seal is not 80 armor, it's not even 75 armor, it's kept usable to help players still raiding that content. Whatever those players got they should say thank you to Ngreth and not {complain} how it should be better.

Please show me where I have asked for the armor to be improved. I've merely stated that I believe that SOE should stick by what several of its developers said repeatedly before and after SOF release - that the armor generally is powerful, but balanced - working as intended' and keep the stats as is rather than caving to a batch of elitists who {complain} how it should be nerfed.

[Zacatac]

You will not see a huge difference between a 50% focus and 60% focus but there is a difference. As a caster, the focus effect is still the biggest factor I look at when comparing upgrades.

And usually the difference is not just the %, but the LEVEL it goes up too.
There is a big difference between 50% to 70 focus and a 65% to 77 focus.

I recently picked up a tradeable neck item with 35% to 80 heal focus, which upgraded my 40% to 70 focus.