Incoming Nerf to Elegant and Last Blood?

[Leana]

I don't think it is fair to categorize the concerns of the high end raider as vanity on their part about where they appear on the leaderboard. Take a moment and look at it from their point of view.

In it's purest form, if we take out all variances, the game should work somewhat as follows: the harder a mob is to kill and the more people it takes to kill him, the better the reward should be for defeating him. This is distilled down into a term, Risk vs. Reward (RvR). In a perfect world, RvR would be the best implementation for everything, but in practice, it's not.

The thing is we build lot's of ways to advance, and balancing all the ways to advance and making it so that the reward from something that is harder always yields a better reward becomes very difficult. Not only that, but something that is very hard for one group of players can be almost trivial for a different group of players merely due to their makeup. A kiting group may be able to defeat mobs that would knock a tank out of his socks, but in a different encounter, where the mobs summon, they would be toast. Then, as time advances and new content is released, newer, easier ways of doing things are introduced to the game. This completely nullifies RvR.

Back to the high end raider. They live on the cutting edge. Everything they earn, they earn the hard way. Most of the encounters they fight are by far harder than anything anyone else in the game does. In some cases, the events they are attempting are broken to begin with, and have to be fixed before they can even be completed. As such, the rewards from those encounters are typically the best available in the game. That's only fair. They are the trail blazers, and they should be rewarded for doing that. So for them, RvR is very real.

The leaderboard isn't so much about ego as it is a comparison of power. The sudden jump to power of someone who was clearly two years behind them in content demonstrates that the cultural armor had a huge jump in power. They feel that jump in power is unjustified.

As I said in previous posts, I don't think the cultural jump in power is so far out of line when compared to the jumps in power of the high end raiding gear, the mid level raiding gear and the group gear. The problem is that it manifested itself way faster than the other three. In a few months when each of those groups of gear have had time to develop, the issue will not be nearly as significant and the person who is in Last Blood and Anguish gear won't be near the top of the leaderboard.

The second issue of concern the high end raiders complain about is that the cultural armor is overtaking the TSS/TBS raid gear. I don't see that so much of an issue with cultural armor itself, but rather the general change in power levels of all armor and equipment in the expansion. If the developers step on cultural armor as being too strong now, it may well be overly weak when the other three gear types have had a chance to develop. I think that will bode poorly for the advances that have been made for tradeskills in the game.

[Aaneras]

I don't think it is fair to categorize the concerns of the high end raider as vanity on their part about where they appear on the leaderboard. Take a moment and look at it from their point of view.

In it's purest form, if we take out all variances, the game should work somewhat as follows: the harder a mob is to kill and the more people it takes to kill him, the better the reward should be for defeating him. This is distilled down into a term, Risk vs. Reward (RvR). In a perfect world, RvR would be the best implementation for everything, but in practice, it's not.

The thing is we build lot's of ways to advance, and balancing all the ways to advance and making it so that the reward from something that is harder always yields a better reward becomes very difficult. Not only that, but something that is very hard for one group of players can be almost trivial for a different group of players merely due to their makeup. A kiting group may be able to defeat mobs that would knock a tank out of his socks, but in a different encounter, where the mobs summon, they would be toast. Then, as time advances and new content is released, newer, easier ways of doing things are introduced to the game. This completely nullifies RvR.

Back to the high end raider. They live on the cutting edge. Everything they earn, they earn the hard way. Most of the encounters they fight are by far harder than anything anyone else in the game does. In some cases, the events they are attempting are broken to begin with, and have to be fixed before they can even be completed. As such, the rewards from those encounters are typically the best available in the game. That's only fair. They are the trail blazers, and they should be rewarded for doing that. So for them, RvR is very real.

The leaderboard isn't so much about ego as it is a comparison of power. The sudden jump to power of someone who was clearly two years behind them in content demonstrates that the cultural armor had a huge jump in power. They feel that jump in power is unjustified.

As I said in previous posts, I don't think the cultural jump in power is so far out of line when compared to the jumps in power of the high end raiding gear, the mid level raiding gear and the group gear. The problem is that it manifested itself way faster than the other three. In a few months when each of those groups of gear have had time to develop, the issue will not be nearly as significant and the person who is in Last Blood and Anguish gear won't be near the top of the leaderboard.

The second issue of concern the high end raiders complain about is that the cultural armor is overtaking the TSS/TBS raid gear. I don't see that so much of an issue with cultural armor itself, but rather the general change in power levels of all armor and equipment in the expansion. If the developers step on cultural armor as being too strong now, it may well be overly weak when the other three gear types have had a chance to develop. I think that will bode poorly for the advances that have been made for tradeskills in the game.

I have a completely different view, and it has hardened considerably into active contempt over the past few weeks.
The raiders at the cutting edge get the developers to design content that they, and only they, have the opportunity to defeat. Mechanical timesinks are inserted to slow down progress, and they are tuned to the schedules of the handful of raid forces that are given the opportunity to experience content.

If you scan down the list of raid forces there is remarkably little variance in the time that they take to defeat various expansions. The sole exception is that the number of participants is dwindling as forces fall behind and fall apart. In other words, to a very good approximation the end game raid forces are where they are now because they were ahead in progression three years ago. A group of players who are currently in older content, regardless of their skill or motivation , simply cannot move ahead in a differential sense. It's a destructive dynamic. There are essentially no counter-examples in raid progression.

It would be one thing if there was a flat playing field at the start of each expansion. Competition takes a completely different color when only a small group has even the opportunity to experience new content. It takes a very, very ugly turn when that small group campaigns to get the gear of less-advantaged players crippled - and the developers agree.

I honestly don't think the developers grasp how thin the ice that they're walking on right now actually is. I can't recall previous discussions on the SoE boards where people posted screen shots of account cancellations. I know that there is no previous example for me that has been the subject of angry in-game guild and raid force board discussions. I truly hope that they do the right thing (e.g. not slamming the door on those behind in progression.) But I have little hope that they will.

[Brael]

The point then I guess I am trying to make is people bring it up as evidence to try and show that the cultural armor with the LB aug is overpowered and requires a nerf. I think it is rediculous that a few people whose sole purpose in EQ is to have the biggest stats are demanding a nerf (that will not even effect their gear) to make themselves feel better by further distancing themselves from the majority of the EQ player base on a leaderboard. They just want to feel good about themselves by having a list saying they have more hp than other people so to maintain that superiority they are calling for a nerf to other people. I am trying to further a discussion of logical arguments for or against the nerf. I just do not see how a person in cultural showing up on a leaderboard has any merit in this conversation.

I really dislike the leaderboard argument, because I'm near the top (or was prior to 80/80/LB's) people assume I want it nerfed so I can be up on top again (whether or not this comment was direct at me I'm not sure but I've had it directed at me on other boards so even if not, I've heard it too) and that couldn't be further from the truth. There's a certain progression which comes from both group and raid encounters which should be smooth. In general (a handful of slots always fall through because of focus placement, mod need, and what not) standard raid progression looks something like this: Tier 1 < Tier 2 < Tier 3 < Tier 4 < Tier 5 < Tier 6 < Tier 7 and so on. Lets add some names to those and have it read as Vex Thal < Elementals < Time < Tacvi < Demiplane < AG/FC < Solteris. The problem which you can see demonstrated by me now with a couple of magelo links I posted earlier as well as that breakdown of armor sets is that Demiplane now allows for armor superior to that of Solteris which disrupts progression. Old gear shouldn't suddenly see that type of boost to desirability from where it was previously. It doesn't really matter if people using 80/80/LB's now will upgrade to 80/80/Serpents, 80/80/Sunshards, or 80/80/Faycites in the future or if people using Enerigiac will upgrade to Crystallos raid armor in the future. The fact of the matter is, 80/80/LB's will still be there and they'll still be too strong for the content they come from and then when we get 80/85/LB in another expansion and 90/90/LB in the expansion after that they'll gain a rather significant amount of power again which is another reason it should be fixed now to avoid future problems.

The leaderboard isn't so much about ego as it is a comparison of power. The sudden jump to power of someone who was clearly two years behind them in content demonstrates that the cultural armor had a huge jump in power. They feel that jump in power is unjustified.

While I certainly won't say that if 80/80/LB's came from SoF only (even the LB being a group encounter) that high end players wouldn't complain because I know several that would, I'm of the mindset that new gear completly invalidating old gear is perfectly fine. Notice the number of complaints about Crytallos group gear. That's Solteris level equipment right there, infact some of my TSS raid items I wear are inferior to group gear from there (my charm for example) however being from new zones it gets many less complaints. If the baseline in DSH group gear started at 5000 HP/Mana/End per piece, completely invalidating all old gear I wouldn't have a problem with it either because it would be coming from new encounters with abilities designed for that type of gear. It comes entirely from the fact that it's old gear getting a boost making it several tiers of equipment higher than it should be.

Then there's the issue (or what I feel is an issue atleast) of the 80/80 cultural being too weak without a type 12 when compared to non raider equipment. This comparison has been alittle harder to make however since it takes time for new gear to all get discovered. With any luck their proposed change will be able to fix both of those problems, but I do find myself wondering... whats going to happen with an 80/85/Serpent or 80/85/Sunshard (or worse, Faycite) when the next expansion rolls around? I think their fix will address the current type 12 issues but leave future ones wide open... initially I was against the idea of groupable type 12's also being added to the game in order to fix these issues, but the more I think about it, the more I think that long term it would be the better solution. It does however carry a very high price being everyone who has purchased Elegant armor/Sublime symbols so far would take a big loss. Maybe it could always be done as a future change though before we're all level 85 or something... groupable type 12's and reverse recommended levels.

[Leana]

While I certainly won't say that if 80/80/LB's came from SoF only (even the LB being a group encounter) that high end players wouldn't complain because I know several that would, I'm of the mindset that new gear completly invalidating old gear is perfectly fine. Notice the number of complaints about Crytallos group gear. That's Solteris level equipment right there, infact some of my TSS raid items I wear are inferior to group gear from there (my charm for example) however being from new zones it gets many less complaints. If the baseline in DSH group gear started at 5000 HP/Mana/End per piece, completely invalidating all old gear I wouldn't have a problem with it either because it would be coming from new encounters with abilities designed for that type of gear. It comes entirely from the fact that it's old gear getting a boost making it several tiers of equipment higher than it should be.

I find it ironic that you consider it ok for new group gear to obsolete raid gear but do not consider it ok for new crafted + raid gear to obsolete raid gear.

[Leana]

I have a completely different view, and it has hardened considerably into active contempt over the past few weeks.
The raiders at the cutting edge get the developers to design content that they, and only they, have the opportunity to defeat. Mechanical timesinks are inserted to slow down progress, and they are tuned to the schedules of the handful of raid forces that are given the opportunity to experience content.

If you scan down the list of raid forces there is remarkably little variance in the time that they take to defeat various expansions. The sole exception is that the number of participants is dwindling as forces fall behind and fall apart. In other words, to a very good approximation the end game raid forces are where they are now because they were ahead in progression three years ago. A group of players who are currently in older content, regardless of their skill or motivation , simply cannot move ahead in a differential sense. It's a destructive dynamic. There are essentially no counter-examples in raid progression.

It would be one thing if there was a flat playing field at the start of each expansion. Competition takes a completely different color when only a small group has even the opportunity to experience new content. It takes a very, very ugly turn when that small group campaigns to get the gear of less-advantaged players crippled - and the developers agree.

I honestly don't think the developers grasp how thin the ice that they're walking on right now actually is. I can't recall previous discussions on the SoE boards where people posted screen shots of account cancellations. I know that there is no previous example for me that has been the subject of angry in-game guild and raid force board discussions. I truly hope that they do the right thing (e.g. not slamming the door on those behind in progression.) But I have little hope that they will.

I had to read your post several times to understand your points, and I am still not sure I have them firmly fixed, so if I miss the mark, you'll have to correct me.

Of course the developers make raids for the high end raider. The new raids are tuned to give the most advanced raiders a challenge, because they are at the forefront of the community. The way to keep these players interested in the game is to keep them challenged, especially if you crush any chances they have for getting a challenge outside the raid community by watering down group encounters and equipment in the game. Frankly, if I were a developer for the game I wouldn't know any other way to do it.

Sure there is attrition at the top, but I don't buy your assertion that no one can catch up. I think that people don't catch up because the people that want to be in those guilds can server move and join right in. For a new guild to make the commitment to make up the ground in a single expansion and catch up is a heavy burden, and you would have to retain people who might otherwise think it easier just to move to a guild at the level they want to play rather than to help a guild get there. I think it will get a little easier to catch up than it was in the past due to the new one expansion a year setup and the expansion of power gain in the current expansion. Everyone is being pushed up from the bottom. There is bazaar purchasable gear better than Anguish. There is player made gear that rivals Demi-DK-TSS-Soltaris, and there is even group obtainable gear that does pretty much the same.

The only way to make a balanced start for everyone is to wipe everyone's progress out, including all high end raiders, all mid level raiders, all non raiders and all casual players. I surely hope that I don't have to explain why that would be a bad idea and totally unacceptable to the eq population at large. There is no flat playing field and never will be. Everyone makes progress at their own rate. People with a long history have advantages that newer people do not. That's the way these games work. You had best learn to live with that feature or give up playing MMOs entirely.

I think the developers are fully aware of the potential impact of their decisions at this point. There is no win-win situation for them. They can't come up with a solution that is going to make everyone happy, and it is likely that regardless of what they decide, they will lose some accounts over it. I don't think any single event in EQ history has so focussed the attention of everyone in the game, nor a solution that will impact so many people. Everyone in the game has a pony in this race.

[Sorkin]

Demiplane now allows for armor superior to that of Solteris which disrupts progression

This statement is entirely untrue. It may be arguable for 1 class...warriors. But for the rest of us, the rotten focii/effects on 80/80/LBs means that I would, in a heartbeat, take any TSS or TBS raid drop over an 80/80/LB. Even a 5% increase in focus can equate to thousands of mana over the course of a raid.

Now if you want to put TBS raid level focii on the LBs, by all means, cut the hp/mana/ac by 80%. Heck I'd be tickled pink with Demi level focii on them and a 40 or 50% cut on ac/hp/mana. But with the crap focus and mod2s, leave the ac/hp/mana intact please.

[Aldier]

There's a certain progression which comes from both group and raid encounters which should be smooth. In general (a handful of slots always fall through because of focus placement, mod need, and what not) standard raid progression looks something like this: Tier 1 < Tier 2 < Tier 3 < Tier 4 < Tier 5 < Tier 6 < Tier 7 and so on. Lets add some names to those and have it read as Vex Thal < Elementals < Time < Tacvi < Demiplane < AG/FC < Solteris. The problem which you can see demonstrated by me now with a couple of magelo links I posted earlier as well as that breakdown of armor sets is that Demiplane now allows for armor superior to that of Solteris which disrupts progression. Old gear shouldn't suddenly see that type of boost to desirability from where it was previously. It doesn't really matter if people using 80/80/LB's now will upgrade to 80/80/Serpents, 80/80/Sunshards, or 80/80/Faycites in the future or if people using Enerigiac will upgrade to Crystallos raid armor in the future. The fact of the matter is, 80/80/LB's will still be there and they'll still be too strong for the content they come from...

So it is ok for group level armor from Tier 7 to completely overshadow raid level armor from Tier 5? Well, the advent of the Last Blood and Cultural armor was designed to be a flexible, interchangeable system to increase the longevity of raid drops so they are useable over multiple expansions. They have succeeded in doing this.

Let us just look at SoF armor tiers because the level cap increase and the huge stat increase on gear is an SoF issue. Tier 4 group armor rivals the previous expansions raid armor. Tier 3 group armor (where cultural Elegant + Sublime is balanced against) has a new augment that makes it equivalent to Tier 3 raid armor (faycite). However, the augment slot is available to be filled whether you have Faycite augs or not. Is it your opinion that Tier 3 group armor + a raid drop should be weaker than Tier 4 group armor? That is putting a HIGH premium on that difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4 group armor that I don't think anyone wants to see. Is it that the old content is now dated (old content being EVERYTHING before SoF)?

While I certainly won't say that if 80/80/LB's came from SoF only (even the LB being a group encounter) that high end players wouldn't complain because I know several that would, I'm of the mindset that new gear completly invalidating old gear is perfectly fine.

It appears you do not mind.

Notice the number of complaints about Crytallos group gear. That's Solteris level equipment right there, infact some of my TSS raid items I wear are inferior to group gear from there (my charm for example) however being from new zones it gets many less complaints.

Yet no one is crying this be nerfed, only the cultural is/was attacked as being overpowered.

Then there's the issue (or what I feel is an issue atleast) of the 80/80 cultural being too weak without a type 12 when compared to non raider equipment. This comparison has been alittle harder to make however since it takes time for new gear to all get discovered. With any luck their proposed change will be able to fix both of those problems, but I do find myself wondering... whats going to happen with an 80/85/Serpent or 80/85/Sunshard (or worse, Faycite) when the next expansion rolls around? I think their fix will address the current type 12 issues but leave future ones wide open... initially I was against the idea of groupable type 12's also being added to the game in order to fix these issues, but the more I think about it, the more I think that long term it would be the better solution. It does however carry a very high price being everyone who has purchased Elegant armor/Sublime symbols so far would take a big loss. Maybe it could always be done as a future change though before we're all level 85 or something... groupable type 12's and reverse recommended levels.

The Elegant + Sublime is supposed to be on par with Tier 3 group gear. The bp's are 400 hp/mana. The bracers I think are only 375hp/mana. This is still solid group gear that with similar heroic stats puts it on par with the group gear I have seen so far that is tier 3.


I would not call Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood combination Demiplane loot. It is an augment from Demiplane that was designed to move cultural group armor up to a raid level armor. That is then put on a Tier 3 SoF Group Gear. That should move it into the ranks of AT LEAST Tier 1 SoF raid gear. The Faycite aug (3 upgrades from the LB) is supposed to take Tier 3 SoF group gear and make it Tier 3 SoF raid gear.

The problem being that Tier 1, 2, 3, and 4 raid gear has not been discovered yet. There is no current equipment with which to compare this raid gear to, only past expansions. The developers have those items and stats to compare with but the players do not, yet. These Tier 1 and 2 SoF raid gear are the items we need to be comparing with the Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood/Serpent/Sunshard to see how balanced they are knowing that Elegant + Sublime + Faycite is supposed to be balanced to Tier 3 raid armor.

The logical suggestion then is for the players to wait and see what the raid armor in SoF looks like and to use them as the appropriate base of comparison for the cultural (with a raid augment).

[Aldier]

Aaneras, the suggestion to level the playing field for all was taken and the 2 progression servers resulted from that.

With the change in the business plan at SOE for Everquest expansions, this year will most likely show significant progress by MANY guilds to catch up with some of the high end, cutting edge guilds. Guilds that were 1 or 2 expansions behind back when GoD/OoW was coming out may now be 3 or 4 expansions behind and this extended time without an expansion coming in 6 months to disrupt them, will give them more time to get through older expansions and move back closer to where they were.

[Aaneras]

It's not an assertion that people can't catch up. It's a fact. There are comprehensive lists of raid progression, and there is an extremely consistent pattern - as time goes on, raid forces that hit a given benchmark behind the bleeding edge will fall farther and farther behind. Raid forces simply don't make up any ground on the leaders in EQ as it actually plays out. Since I doubt that all of the midtier raiders are incompetent, this suggests a structural problem. Folks like me were willing to tolerate it when the bleeding edge folks weren't trying to actively foul up the different game that we were playing. No more.

[Aldier]

It's not an assertion that people can't catch up. It's a fact. There are comprehensive lists of raid progression, and there is an extremely consistent pattern - as time goes on, raid forces that hit a given benchmark behind the bleeding edge will fall farther and farther behind. Raid forces simply don't make up any ground on the leaders in EQ as it actually plays out. Since I doubt that all of the midtier raiders are incompetent, this suggests a structural problem. Folks like me were willing to tolerate it when the bleeding edge folks weren't trying to actively foul up the different game that we were playing. No more.

When a new expansion was coming out every 6 months to add on top of the current progression load that only the top bleeding edge guilds were able to get through before another expansion was dumped on top. Yes. You are correct.

However, that is no longer the case. We will not be able to say whether or not guilds can "make up ground" and catch up on progression until probably 6-9 months through this expansion when talk of the NEXT one will start. Come November 2008, come back and re-evaluate your statements. Then and only then when the next expansion is dumped on top, will we be able to truely judge if any guilds (raid forces) made progress.

[Brael]

I find it ironic that you consider it ok for new group gear to obsolete raid gear but do not consider it ok for new crafted + raid gear to obsolete raid gear.

A Last Blood makes the whole thing raid gear. Armor+Symbol while technically 2 items is 1 item since the type 11 is exclusive to it. The same is true of Armor+Symbol+Type 12. It's one item not three, a part of it comes from raids. That makes the whole thing a piece of raid gear in my mind. So yes, I view it as Eminent+Sublime surpassing older raid gear to be just fine, it's new gear (even though it's global the whole drop rate thing especially since they fixed it provides sufficient limitations). Bloods make it raid though and as such it shouldn't be on par with Solteris gear... mid/high AG/FC is fine, a 70/70/LB was already at mid level AG/FC (infact, 1 hp under Solt gear is fine with me... that makes it technically worse).

This statement is entirely untrue. It may be arguable for 1 class...warriors. But for the rest of us, the rotten focii/effects on 80/80/LBs means that I would, in a heartbeat, take any TSS or TBS raid drop over an 80/80/LB. Even a 5&#37; increase in focus can equate to thousands of mana over the course of a raid.

Now if you want to put TBS raid level focii on the LBs, by all means, cut the hp/mana/ac by 80%. Heck I'd be tickled pink with Demi level focii on them and a 40 or 50% cut on ac/hp/mana. But with the crap focus and mod2s, leave the ac/hp/mana intact please.

Focus effects are very marginal at this point for anything other than DoT's due to how the formulas work. Heals suffer due to overheal, DD's suffer because focus is only an improvement to one of about 10 different ways that boost spells. Anyways... an 80% cut to type 12 stats is high, I would seriously doubt if anything goes over 65% and even then I doubt a Blood would see over 50%. Part of that hit is also negated by an increase to the stats of the base armor so in the end you don't lose 50% to your gear, you only lose about 25%.

When a new expansion was coming out every 6 months to add on top of the current progression load that only the top bleeding edge guilds were able to get through before another expansion was dumped on top. Yes. You are correct.

However, that is no longer the case. We will not be able to say whether or not guilds can "make up ground" and catch up on progression until probably 6-9 months through this expansion when talk of the NEXT one will start. Come November 2008, come back and re-evaluate your statements. Then and only then when the next expansion is dumped on top, will we be able to truely judge if any guilds (raid forces) made progress.

They won't. The reason guilds fall behind and stay behind is due to the mentality that equipment has to be farmed. Through strategy and efficient raids players have the tools to overcome about a 60% difference in gear (meaning if you're equipped in all 100 hp items and you're fighting something balanced against 160 it's on the borderline of what you can take but still doable). SoF between tier 1 and 4 for raiders only results in a 40% difference. Guilds which are behind handicap themselves through the mentality that they need to farm various content before moving on while the guilds that are furthest ahead go with the mindset of reaching the end and then farming which gets them more/higher quality loot for the same time and effort. Guilds which farm also tend to have players leave them after gearing up for several different reasons which simply furthers the "we must farm" perspective and keeps players in those guilds behind.

In short, it's the perspective in a guild that keeps it behind, if they're behind now due to their mindset, having 12 rather than 6 months to catch up isn't going to do much for them because the tiers look like you need a good deal of farming to beat them (although they really don't). Not to mention the time it will take to flag or if you want it in other words, those guilds don't push themselves enough.

[Aaneras]

You're not a caster or priest clearly, because you wouldn't dismiss focus effects. They are the single most important factor when considering gear, and it takes a massive difference in everything else to compensate for even a small difference in focus.

I'll be as polite as I can Brael: you don't understand the game that I play. Guilds fall behind in progression because of two generic features:

1) Raids are designed for a fixed maximum number of players and tuned for that maximum. You therefore require a critical mass of players for content that is challenging to them to get anywhere. You don't make incremental progress with 30-35 people; you make none. (You can farm things, but that's boring.)

2) To slow down endgame raiders the developers have added a maze of timesinks. Individual characters have to build up faction, finish group quests series, unlock a series of raids etc. etc. If 10 of your players haven't completed every single step...see problem 1.

3) The raid and play schedule of most forces is three nights, implying a slower overall pace. There must be some raid forces that linger in obsolete content, but that's an utterly wrong description of ours. I also follow the progress of peers on boards and in chat and it doesn't apply for them either.

There is certainly an element of psychology: if people think that there are exciting things to do they log on. If you have 3 dozen people wiping on targets that they don't have the numbers for - or doing pointless stuff- they lose interest. That's the real reason why this cultural armor change is such a disaster. It's made a lot of people at my level very, very, very angry. The mood about the new expansion has flipped on a dime, and the mood towards endgame raiders has changed from respect to one that I can only charitably describe as poisonous. This is a game, it just got fun, and other players are working as hard as they can to put us back in our place while telling us that we're lazy and lousy at what we do.

[Aldier]

You're not a caster or priest clearly, because you wouldn't dismiss focus effects. They are the single most important factor when considering gear, and it takes a massive difference in everything else to compensate for even a small difference in focus.

I'll be as polite as I can Brael: you don't understand the game that I play. Guilds fall behind in progression because of two generic features:

1) Raids are designed for a fixed maximum number of players and tuned for that maximum. You therefore require a critical mass of players for content that is challenging to them to get anywhere. You don't make incremental progress with 30-35 people; you make none. (You can farm things, but that's boring.)

2) To slow down endgame raiders the developers have added a maze of timesinks. Individual characters have to build up faction, finish group quests series, unlock a series of raids etc. etc. If 10 of your players haven't completed every single step...see problem 1.

3) The raid and play schedule of most forces is three nights, implying a slower overall pace. There must be some raid forces that linger in obsolete content, but that's an utterly wrong description of ours. I also follow the progress of peers on boards and in chat and it doesn't apply for them either.

There is certainly an element of psychology: if people think that there are exciting things to do they log on. If you have 3 dozen people wiping on targets that they don't have the numbers for - or doing pointless stuff- they lose interest. That's the real reason why this cultural armor change is such a disaster. It's made a lot of people at my level very, very, very angry. The mood about the new expansion has flipped on a dime, and the mood towards endgame raiders has changed from respect to one that I can only charitably describe as poisonous. This is a game, it just got fun, and other players are working as hard as they can to put us back in our place while telling us that we're lazy and lousy at what we do.

Just a few comments I wanted to make on this topic even though you address Brael.

A wizard (or person using a wizard as an example) somewhere else perhaps earlier in this thread tried to point out that with all the ways to increase spell damage through critical hits and other modifiers, the focus effect becomes a smaller and smaller portion of the total damage of the nuke. This argument works for offensive direct damage focus effects. You will not see a huge difference between a 50&#37; focus and 60% focus but there is a difference. As a caster, the focus effect is still the biggest factor I look at when comparing upgrades.

Raid content was/is designed around a set number of people. That number for large raids is 54. SoF saw a lot of 12, 24, and 42 person raids as well as the full 54 person raids for progression and whatnot. 54 level 70 players were able to do Demiplane of Blood. Now, 30-35 level 80 players are doing the same content. One reason that the top cutting edge guilds progress as fast as they do is they do everything in their power to maintain that full size raid. Where most mid-tier guilds fall behind is they are not putting 54 people in the raid against the content. When they do, they usually are successful *assuming they have the right tactics/makeup to handle the content* compared to attempts where they only have 30-35 players.

The solution to your 2nd point is a commitment issue. Mid-tier raiding guilds typically have a more relaxed schedule and requirements as far as raid attendance and time available by their members. Top end guilds require more of a time commitment and effort commitment to maintain the level of play they enjoy. Not everyone can do that. They push to make sure everyone is flagged, and require everyone to get flagged and expect their members to do the flagging to stay current. It is the choice to push to do the flagging that is the difference between top end raiders and mid-tier raiders. Many mid-tier raiders push themselves, but are unable to motivate everyone else in their guild to do the same as them and it requires everyone to do it to make things easier and progress.

I do not think it is fair to group top end raiders together. There was a very vocal minority of them that argued for this change. That does not mean ALL top end raiders want this change. There are some that benefitted from the release of the stronger cultural armor. There are some that are glad that applicants are able to have higher quality gear when they join them and make them more viable members of the raid. It provides them with an alternative to fighting for that top solteris raid drop. There are some that are eager to see what is to come in SoF based on the strength of the gear that has already been seen.

[Leana]

A Last Blood makes the whole thing raid gear. Armor+Symbol while technically 2 items is 1 item since the type 11 is exclusive to it. The same is true of Armor+Symbol+Type 12. It's one item not three, a part of it comes from raids. That makes the whole thing a piece of raid gear in my mind. So yes, I view it as Eminent+Sublime surpassing older raid gear to be just fine, it's new gear (even though it's global the whole drop rate thing especially since they fixed it provides sufficient limitations). Bloods make it raid though and as such it shouldn't be on par with Solteris gear... mid/high AG/FC is fine, a 70/70/LB was already at mid level AG/FC (infact, 1 hp under Solt gear is fine with me... that makes it technically worse).

That was cleaverly done. By focussing on a given and explaining it to the nth degree, you avoided the issue all together. So, since you missed the mail, I'll state it more clearly.

Why is it ok for group loot to obsolete raid content, but not raid + group drops? Any raid force who can get a last blood should be able to get T4 group armor eaiser.

[Leana]

I'll be as polite as I can Brael: you don't understand the game that I play. Guilds fall behind in progression because of two generic features:

1) Raids are designed for a fixed maximum number of players and tuned for that maximum. You therefore require a critical mass of players for content that is challenging to them to get anywhere. You don't make incremental progress with 30-35 people; you make none. (You can farm things, but that's boring.)

2) To slow down endgame raiders the developers have added a maze of timesinks. Individual characters have to build up faction, finish group quests series, unlock a series of raids etc. etc. If 10 of your players haven't completed every single step...see problem 1.

3) The raid and play schedule of most forces is three nights, implying a slower overall pace. There must be some raid forces that linger in obsolete content, but that's an utterly wrong description of ours. I also follow the progress of peers on boards and in chat and it doesn't apply for them either.

There is certainly an element of psychology: if people think that there are exciting things to do they log on. If you have 3 dozen people wiping on targets that they don't have the numbers for - or doing pointless stuff- they lose interest. That's the real reason why this cultural armor change is such a disaster. It's made a lot of people at my level very, very, very angry. The mood about the new expansion has flipped on a dime, and the mood towards endgame raiders has changed from respect to one that I can only charitably describe as poisonous. This is a game, it just got fun, and other players are working as hard as they can to put us back in our place while telling us that we're lazy and lousy at what we do.

Ironically, I think you made Brael's point for him. The difference between progression from a high end guild and a mid tier guild is attitude.

High end raiders demand attendance, commitment, etc. You are expected to be present and therefore, they a more consistent raid force and full raids. Everyone is committed to getting the job done.

Mid tier raid forces have other concerns, are not as committed, may have optional raid attendance, etc. I've also noted that mid tier raid forces don't fight through failures the same way high end raiders do. They lose a few times, then shuck off to easier stuff for a while. The High end raiders may try and event over and over and over until they beat it.

Mid tier raiders progress at the speed they do for the same reason that casual players progress at an even slower rate. Lack of focus and lack of commitment. Winning that particular fight just isn't that improtant to them.

To the high end raider, it is the most important thing in the game to win that raid, no matter what it takes. People are expected to have the levels, aas, faction, solo tasks, anything required done and to commit the time required to do it. If you can't get those things done, you can't raid with the guild. If your raid attendance falls off, you're history.

To the mid tier raider, everyone works on those things at their own speed. When enough of the raid force has it, they can attempt the targets.

You know what? I just have too many things I want to do in the game to spend the majority of my time in the game raiding. I accept that I will never progress at the rate of guilds that have that commitment and focus. If I could play my style or play and keep up with the top guilds in the game, I suspect that the game would become boring rather quickly.