Idea - Tradeskill Epic

[Newcromancer]

Angel your failure to see out side your bubble is astounding. Read my posts please without your emotions getting in the way. I said people make/made killings on all trades. You as much admit that in your post yet deny it in the very same post a phrase later.

How is it relevant that you make more or less of a killing than spell research? If you are still trying to make a killing off of 3 year old combines, you need to read more of the posts in on this site.

Yes, I would classify you as a very very casual trade skiller/player. Why you are so adamant about trying to refute my views is, to me odd. I think myself very competent on the goings on in EQ. I also was in a large high end raiding guild for a while and know that aspect.

I know who, on my server, makes a killing in the bazaar as I have spent countless hours listening to guild mates, then tracking their sales. Just because your single experience does not match what I have seen does not make you right.

If you feel the need to post again on my comments, please do so. I will not reply as I feel this line we are taking is moving away from the original ideas I wished to share.

[Gaell Stormracer]

Yes, I would classify you as a very very casual trade skiller/player.

Comparing her track record here with yours, I find this level of arrogance entirely laughable....

You have some valid points, but also some stonkingly invalid ones. Insisting you're right on all of that doesn't make it so....

[Ikken]

Newcromancer -

Ok, we'll be fair. Explain how your views of people making a killing at tradeskills are relevant to this thread? Maybe the way you phrased it the first time just didn't seem to have anything to do with a Tradeskill Epic, but you actually have a valid way of connecting the two ideas.

Please tell us how money making is related to the type of long drawn out quest that we all are talking about here.


-Ike

[Newcromancer]

Gaell, well I guess if you come from the point of view that calling someone a casual player is an insult, then you would be right. I, myself, am a very casual player now and think I am a very good player. How was that arrogant? The only arrogance I see is your touting someones post count as credibility.

Ikken, thank you for posing a question that is reasonable and perhaps would have gotten a better response from me than the percieved attacking posts that were posted.

Every worthwhile quest that I have seen that has useful stats/effects for someone able to obtain it, the shawl quest when it was upgraded and the demi lich skull cap being very big exceptions, is made fairly unobtainable for casual players. My opinion is not about "cashing in on this item" with pp which I may have said in a misleading way: I was trying to draw an analogy with those who can make pp do. What will happen is that those who are in the high end guilds with maxed out trade skills will, for the first year or so, monopolize the drops required to obtain the item for 7 alts on their various accounts. If they are dropable you will see them cashing in on them in the bazaar, as they will have the ability to solo these drops, where you and I would need a group. Which means that casual players would not have a chance to get the item until it was sadly outdated and no longer wanted.

If the item is crap and not wanted by high end alts/players then what is the point of this quest (like countless others).

There is a balance somewhere in the middle, like with the shawl (quickly becoming obsolete though) and skull cap. Now, since there are only a few of these "excellent" item quests I imagine they are difficult to concieve and implement.

If all that is wanted it a trade status item then make it with no stats. I don't think that is what is wanted, though. I would want a very current, useful and pertinent item.

That is what I was trying to say.

[Ngreth Thergn]

OK.

Why must people accuse other people of being close minded (however people are phrasing it, in the end that is what is seems like people are saying)

If you think someone misinterpreted you, there is no reason to accuse that person of anything. Even anything minor.

Why not say "It seems my point was not understood. Let me try again..." and rephrase it. There is no need to make any type of accusation, even minor. There is not even a need to name names. Once the accusations come in, tempers and emotions start to get into it, and flames start appearing.

Lets please keep this a productive conversation. And please continue to make your points, don't take this as me trying to squelch points of view. I am just suggesting other ways of presenting the same point of view.

[Newcromancer]

If anyone thinks I insulted/offened them, I offer an apology so that the discussion may progress in a more civil tone. I am very opinionated but I am not intending to be insultive.

[Ikken]

It was mentioned earlier but kind of glossed over -

There is a way to make something useful to almost all tradeskillers and not so useful to raiders.

Perhaps a crafted item that gives a bonus to salvage? What tradeskiller wouldn't want to salvage more often? More salvages result in more skillups and finished product.

The only concerns I could foresee would be dev's concern over the number of items entering the market (trivial at low combines, but of greater concern on high ticket items like DoN GM Cultural), and also a coding issue. The coding is probably minimal since salvage is available to all 60+ as an AA, and isn't cultural or racially based.

With the success we've had with evolving trophies, the item could potentially be able to scale with combines, trivial or otherwise. The more you use it, the better you get at saving items from being destroyed (i.e. you salvage better).

Perhaps this could even open up a small chance to salvage for the below 60 crowd on their main skill to 300 and their secondary skills to 200-300. Perhaps a 5% chance to salvage or something?

Of course, all this talk could be for naught, as it could come down from Sony that it just isn't feasible, there is already too much in the works, etc. But I for one would throughly enjoy something that engaged all my skills and gave me a long term useful item to boot.

-Ikken


*edited for level corrections on Salvage

[Chakua]

The whole point of this is to be able to make an incredibly nice item for (more than likely) your ONLY toon that is nearly maxed in all tradeskills. Monopolizing drops for your seven alts would not happen because if you have max tradeskills on eight toons than you should probably look at investing in a life. It has been stated by many people here that if something like this were implemented, they would want rare drops, groupable content rather than raid drops, etc. Yes, there would be farmable parts that could be purchased in the bazaar but that would not differ from most quests or recipes. A guild would have no need to lock these down because, at most, they would have less than 20% of the guild that has the skills or would be willing to get the skills to do this quest. Aid Grimel was of great interest to many people in guilds I was in and yet there was never more than half a dozen people actively working it.

Would people make money off this? Absolutely. I am an avid tradeskiller who abhors farming. My favorite zone for farming parts is the Bazaar. That's really not the point though. People will always find a way to exploit other people. Drop it and move on.

Now...back to this quest. There are a ton of great suggestions and I hope that Ngreth's mind is racing with ideas of how to make something like this work.

[Newcromancer]

Some good points.

Ikken, it is not that the item is say useful to a raider but to the raiders tradeskiller. So, while the item may not prove useful for a raid, the high ender would still want the salvage effect and go after the item for trades. It may be a strange idea but I have always viewed trade skills (in theory not practice) of being meant to be an equilizer. If someone works hard enough to get the skill the casualness of the player would not matter. That is how I wish they were. And that is how I am seeing this "epic item".

Right Chakau,

"if you have max tradeskills on eight toons than you should probably look at investing in a life. "


however, even if the high enders had one tradeskill maxed character per account, if as has been stated by other here about drops being exceeding rare....you would still run into the same problem.

"People will always find a way to exploit other people. Drop it and move on."

Just because people will find a way to do it does not mean it can't be improved upon and thought about. Drop it and move on is not a solution. That is like saying there will always be bugs in the game, don't try to fix them, move on.

Chakua that sound file with your magelo needs to go: I will not be able to get that out of my head for a week at least!

[Maevenniia]

There's nothing wrong with the high end raiders who are also dedicated tradeskillers wanting and getting this mythical Tradeskill Epic.

But it definately needs to be implemented in such a way that only crazy people like us would want to do it.

The last thing we need is another reward (such as the Aid Grimel earring) that is so good that the non-tradeskillers feel obligated to skill up so they can do the quest and get the item.

What would be worth that to tradeskillers, but not to the general EQ population?

A portable forge?

A special charisma item that gives tradeskillers a discount ( > max CHA gives now) on NPC merchant purchases (would have to be such that the price we could buy at was still not lower than merchant buy-back, we don't want a plat exploit!)

Access to a new tradeskill? (erm...something new..Botany? Mining? ....)

A pet mule that would carry items for you...and GIVE THEM BACK upon request...could be suspended and when re-summoned would still have your items.... (oooo I like this one!)

[Wyvernwill]

As much as I hated waiting on the flags through PoP, Aid Grimel was one of the best designed quests I ever worked on.

To this day, I still wear the earring though I am fighting through content dropping 150-250hp earrings, but the same or less AC. So far, the only earring I have thought about replacing the Signet with is the Hoop of the Nest Defender from DoN. The signet earring was something a lot of people wanted, but not many really pursued all out. I also do not remember ever having issues finding any of the drops, nor farming them myself.

I've also done a lot of other hard as heck quests and as my guild is turning sights to GoD, I am now also working on BiC. The major ones I have managed doing, 8th Shawl, 10th Ring, Cloak of the Firestorm, Aid Grimel, Sigil Earring of Veracity are the most notable. I have been very fond of the evolving, growing quest items (not just tradeskill ones).

I do disagree that it should be something that makes tradeskillers happy but is minimal usefullness for raiders... I see that as the wrong way to approach the item. Make it useful for mid level raiders, but make the final combines/turn in's no drop.

Mostly, my checklist of what I think the quest would be best incorporating and some supporting thoughts:
- By no means should it be a completely broken item, however it should be solid. Aid Grimel's final earring was one of the best earrings in Planes of Power, there are few in Plane of Time that even rival it.
- It should be something that is challenging to make. High skill level checks 400+ area for the final combine, but do not have it capped chance for success. Maybe high enough skill that with the best possible set up (Mastery 3, 15% Mod), you get a 90% success chance. Maybe make it a minimum skill combine of 250-280.
- It should require items from higher level zones across expansions. It should push people to explore content of past expansions that they may have missed, but at the same respect, the drops should NOT be no trade. This still gives people a chance to get the items in the bazaar if they do not have the means to hunt those zones. And yes, I stand by the fact that keyed/flag zones could and should be used. I don't believe that the flags/keys should be required, but the items have to be challenging to get.
- If parts are no drop, put them in instanced content atleast. That gives everyone a more fair chance to camp the items, instead of bickering over a camp.
- Incorporate all seven major tradeskills. Would also be good to incorporate the four specific tradeskills for some of the subcombines. This will breed some interdependancy. No one class/race combination can do every single tradeskill.
- Final item stats should be better than groupable gear at this time. Would also be good if it fit in a slot that is a two items of type (ie, Wrists, Ears, Fingers) so that it's easier to avoid replacing the item. I know a lot of people expressed that they would prefer something worn over an augment, but and augments life is generally considerably longer than a piece of gear. Couple examples:
Final Earring of Quest
30AC +20-30 all stats +15-20 all svs 250-275hps/mana/end
10 Avoidance, 2% Shielding, 2% DoT Shielding, 2% Spell Shielding 10 Accuracy
Improved Salvage 1 (10% increased chance of Salvaging an item on a failed combine *ps, I liked this idea Ikken*)

Final Augment of Quest
25AC +10 all stats +10 all svs 100-150hps/mana/end
10 Avoidance, 1% Shielding, 1% DoT Shielding, 1% Spell Shielding 10 Accuracy
Improved Salvage 1

Both items above are solid, push the envelope a bit, but are not dramatically overpowered when you can only have one of the item. The items are both great for melee and casters (though if desired, could break effects off and tailor 2-4 different items depending on class type similar to BiC/Grimel.) Though they push the envelope, currently, I am almost certain there are dozens of items better than the Earring and the Augment (dozens if you count Last Blood of XXX and Bazu Seal of XXX and BiC all as seperates)

The quest could be a 6-10 tier quest, progressively getting to harder zones, ending in something like Illsalin, RSS, Rage, etc.

Just some thoughts.

[Prexis]

I haven't read all the replies yet, but in the ones I did read, another tradeskill quest wasn't mentioned, the Xanthe's Earing of Nature/Protection of the Cabbage quest. This required quite a few trades with 335 trivial items, and was back in the day before the Taanan Crafting Mastery AA that allowed more than 1 skill to go above 200. At the time this required the help of others to complete.

I think it might be nice to see something similiar to this concept, perhaps some kind of combined item that uses crafted items from each racial culture, or several items that use combinations of items from the various cultures. This could include drops from non-playable cultures as well.