Announcement

**KyrosKrane** · 04-29-2006, 01:35 PM

It seems the developers have a philosophy that the best items must come from raids. I'm not going to debate this (though I don't necessarily agree with it); it's just the way they want the game.

Having said that, I don't see it as an impediment. A perfect example of how this works is the type 12 augs. Non-raiders can get the Omens augs in single group content. Low and mid-level raiders can get Chronal and Discordant stones. High level raiders can get Bazu and Last Blood stones. All of these require tradeskills to develop into usable form, and all of them fit into tradeskilled armor.

I could see something similar for weapons. A tradeskiller creates a base weapon that is good but not exceptional, then adds in augments that upgrade it. Single-group augments put it on a part with, say, epic 1.0. Low and mid raid augs put it on a par with 2.0, and end-game augs put it on a par with 2.5.

Now, when I think of a tradeskilled epic, I don't think of weapons at all. My idea of a tradeskill epic is a tool that is supremely useful to a tradeskiller. It gives that tradeskiller some significant benefit or edge over other tradeskillers. There have been a number of proposals for tradeskill epics; if you search, you'll find plenty of others who have commented on the topic. =)

**Ddemons Ddemise** · 04-29-2006, 03:59 PM

waitasecond- there are 2.5s now? jeez i dont even have my 1.0 yet..
and i would indeed love this idea- not all of us have the time to join the high end guilds and raid 24/7 to get items.. heck not all of us have the time to get thru PoTime (though i am working on it).. now, this would be great, it would give me yet another reason to raise my tradeskills (titles, admiration, ability to make my own stuff, fun, and then an epic? nice) i would LOVE to see this idea made into the game
hey, i wouldnt even mind it not being a 40/20 or whatever weapon, give me one that is going to take me 3 months of lower end farming/ grouping and i would gladly do it, only requirements i have for it? it beat Bone Fist Sheath in dmg and has a proc on it.. 75 dmg or so preferrably.. and decent stats thats ALL-- i mean 3 months of farming? not a problem for me- i have worked through the Coldain Rings twice.. failed first time- i have had the 8 dmg DS on my monk since he was about lvl 30.. and i farmed that quest for weeks getting all the stuff- never had a tracker so i did it manually (the only parts i had help on (from tanks) were the large trains part (the velium hammer thing, and the 8th ring war pretty much)
again- great idea, would love to see it implemented so some of us who arent on 24/7 doing high end stuff can have a little bit of pride in our gear as well..
and to the above, i would prefer it be a weapon with like a +5% mod to all tradeskills, with the above also (that would make it a tradeskill trophy AND an epic)

**tuis** · 04-29-2006, 05:45 PM

I would think of a tradeskill epic as an item that could have a sweet mod on top of epic stats. It's clickie effect would morph it into an item with an equal mod for a different tradeskill...and so on and so on, cycling through them all. Something unique that would show to everyone with /shownames 0 that they are in the presence of a Master Artisan.

As for the path to get there...I'll leave that alone.

**Chakua** · 04-29-2006, 06:37 PM

I guess what I was thinking is that we already have really great trophy options available. I am totally happy with an unevolved 12% and like knowing that I can get it to 15% if I like. I think that gives us a competitive advantage over most tradeskillers. I don't think we need another trophy. Well, maybe a way to combine all trophies into one item that had all mods on it. That's another issue and has been discussed in great detail so I won't bring it up here.

You know when you get a link that for that uber item and the first thing that comes to mind is "holy crud...where did THAT come from?" I think it would be so cool for the answer to be..."I made it."

I would like to see one truly insane quest that put every tradeskill to the test that made you rely on others for their help because they are race/class specific. A quest that would encourage people to band together and help in the way that epic quests do. Nothing that requires guild help or raid mobs but something that makes the journey worthwhile. We have already seen a sample of it in the Aid Grimel quest. That was a tradeskill quest that gave you a non-tradeskill related item that made you, as a player, better than you were. That's what I think this could be like.

**KyrosKrane** · 04-29-2006, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Ddemons Ddemise

waitasecond- there are 2.5s now? jeez i dont even have my 1.0 yet..

Sort of. Epic 2.5 is the unofficial name for an upgade to your 2.0 epic that you can get in high-end DoDH content. It's basically an invisible aug added to your 2.0 that boosts it somewhat.

**Ngreth Thergn** · 04-30-2006, 09:58 AM

Lets start this with a simple statement. This statement is not to commit me to doing such an item, I am just having a conversation on the subject.

Any such item will require drops, and probably drops from higher end zones where most any high level player will be able to get EXP. These may or may not be raid drops. That would have to be decided if such an item was made. But there will be the fact that drops will be required.

Now... I am just playing Devils Advocate here. I am not saying I agree or disagree, nor if such an item will come to pass. Also I am not strictly saying I agree or disagree with any particular point I am making here. As I said, I am just having a conversation on the topic.

Anything we create that is "doable" by a simple group, a raiding guild can do easily, and possibly monopolize. Say it needs certain rare drops. A raiding guild can often easily monopolize a zone, and possibly do so "legitimately" They are very practiced, so they can easily be the "first" to attack a mob.

Remember there are no "camps" in EQ.

If the zone is a zone where they can potentially get EXP, then they have just as much right to be in the zone as you do, and as a raiding guild... they can easily monopolize it. This is not necessarily disruption of play. What gives YOU more right to the mobs than they have? Sure GM's may enforce sharing, but the guild will be over all the camps in the zone, while now you are forced to share just one of the camps with just one of the groups of the guild.

Remember, if it is that nice of an item, raiders are going to want it too, and maybe for every member in their guild.

**Aldier** · 04-30-2006, 11:36 AM

There are really like 2 things running in this thread.

First is a progressive multi-skill tradeskill item that is good enough for people to want to go through the struggle to attempt and a request for the trivials to be high enough to make it somewhat rare.

The second is a trophy/reward/recognition for the tradeskiller that is noticeable to others and provides a useful mod/effect for the tradeskiller.

If it is on par with the epic 2.0s and is easily obtainable via tradeskills then it would replace the epics and that is not what I think would be good for the game. If they were on par with the 1.5, then people with 2.0 (or better) would not have a use for it.

In Velious we had the shawl quest, in Planes of Power there was Aid Grimel. With OoW we got a boost to tradeskills to 300. I think some might agree that the next expansion would nice to contain another tradeskill quest like the shawl or Grimel quest.

Just want to say this to those that don't like that something would be restricted to the high end: If you can get an end game item without having to do anything, that is not fair to the people that do fight through the end game and earn that reward. It is a tough balance that Ngreth and the other developers have to work with.

**Chakua** · 04-30-2006, 12:17 PM

My thoughts were that this could be an item that only those that were in the 2100 range would attempt to do because of the trivials and the rarity of certain items. Because it was a tradeskilled item, every member of a guild would not have one because of different player mentalities. Heck, I know rogues that wouldn't do their epic because it required tradeskills in the 100 range. Getting them in the 300 range would be out of the question.

This would be a totally crafted item that would be No Drop upon final combine. If it was structured like Aid Grimel, there would be several stages where potential failure could occur resulting in having to refarm items and do the subcombines.

Even if this was in line with a 2.0 item, how many do you think would be created serverwide?? I don't think we would see that many that there would be an imbalance. I searched EQRankings to see who held the rewards for two of the most extensive quests. I felt that Aid Grimel is THE tradeskill quest and Breakdown in Communication is THE raid quest.

Signet of Might - 504
Signet of the Arcane - 1045
Black Gemstone of Death - 120
Black Gemstone of Pain - 182
Black Gemstone of Suffering - 164
Black Gemstone of Torture - 161

Both of these quests require a tremendous amount of effort and dedication and I don't think anyone can deny that. Aid Grimel requires drops from a flagged zone but those items can be purchased from players. Nothing about any of these quests should/could be easy and even toons with 2100 skill and fully modded trophies should have difficulty.

I know that this is not real life and should not be compared that way but as artisans, would you be content to never try and create that masterpiece? Throughout history, painters, artists, sculpters, architects, carpenters, jewelers and whomever else that creates items with their hands yearn to create that masterpiece. They are constantly striving to reach the pinnacle of their success. Again I ask...why do you tradeskill? I started it because of Aid Grimel and that is where I fell in love with it. I'd love another quest that really put those skills to the test.

It seems that the camps are divided on hardcore end game players and casual players and what each should be entitled to. Who is more worthy and deserving of certain accolades. Who should have the better items. Wouldn't a tradeskiller that has put YEARS and MILLIONS of plat into mastering their skills be considered a high-end tradeskiller? Does it take more effort to master tradeskilling or join a guild and get flagged for end content? They are totally different beasts and can't be compared. But to think that one is inferior to the other is wrong, in my opinion. We love EQ for many reasons and stay here for more than just content. Everyone finds success in this game in their own way. I just think it would be nice to reward everyone accordingly.

**Ysall** · 04-30-2006, 12:20 PM

I have alway thought there was inadequate recognition of those of us mad enough to get to the very top of tradeskills. I've kept hoping that a charm would appear that went up as tradeskills went up, with a value for the Master Artisan that made it equal to the very best attained via raid drops.

I have always disliked the idea of a reward to tradeskillers that made us dependant on level, being a member of an uber guild, or even on persuading a group to come kill something for you. In theory, a level 18 can max any tradeskill, and a level 60 can become a Master Artisan, so the reward should be available to them.

Tradeskills are a solo achievement, and their reward should be the same, something we can achieve on our own, without relying on others. The recent trophies were an almost perfect example of how to achieve that end.

As for the power of any reward, the effort involved in maxing tradeskills, especially all of them, exceeds the effort involved in winning the best item in game, from the hardest mob in the game, by a long way. That achievement is easily realised simply by being member of an uber guild for a month or so.

We on the other hand take months, even years to achieve our goal. In terms of time, we spend hundreds (even thousands) of hours at it. Far more than spent by the uberest raider, at the end of the hardest progression route. We have earned a decent reward. I wish those defining the principle that the best items should only be available from raids would take the time to try maxing tradeskills, and see how they felt after that.

Count how many people have Epic 2.0's accross the servers. Now count how many people have the Master Artisan title. Then tell me whether the hardest task has been rewarded appropriately.

**Ysall** · 04-30-2006, 12:52 PM

By the way, despite being a tradeskiller through and through, I never acheived either the 8th Shawl, or the reward from the Aid Gimmel quest. Despite them being intended as a reward for tradeskillers, they required access to zones I wasnt flagged for, or mini-raids or xp groups that made me dependant on others.

In the case of Aid Gimel, I got unlucky with the Water required from Plane of Valor, and having persuade two separate groups to spend a combined 20 hours there, I never got enough to complete the quest. After that, I stopped asking people to assist, it didnt seem fair.

Thats why any tradeskill 'epic' that requires outside assistance will not be a fair way of rewarding tradeskillers. We got our tradeskills by ourselves, we should be capable of getting any rewards ourselves.

**Aldier** · 04-30-2006, 01:13 PM

Any reward you can get solo should not be able to stand against the reward for an event/task/mission/quest/raid that takes 54 (or more) people to acheive, imo.

The idea of raid loot being the best is that it takes that many people OTHER than yourself to acomplish a goal and the rewards not always going to just you as there are 53 other people for rewards too.

Now, I am gonna ask ANY 2100 tradeskiller to come forward and admit they never bought ingredients in the bazaar, never used other people to help farm components, and still made it all the way to 2100. Then you can truely claim it was a SOLO task, until then, you still needed help and just as with a raid, others were there to help when you get the uberitem_001.

So to claim tradeskills are completely a solo accomplishment and should therefore be soloable is rediculous, imo. On top of that, those "old-timers" will harken back to the "good ole days" when you were lucky to have 1 or 2 people that you knew or were in a guild that could make banded armor, or bd cultural armor or even now with the DoN GM armor. You can get someone else to make it, but they probably charge you a lot more and some would not make it for you.

**Ysall** · 04-30-2006, 01:46 PM

Of course we get (some) ingrediants from the bazaar. And the plat I used to pay for them I acquired by my own effort. The fact that others may have pharmed them does not mean I didn't put effort in to buy them.

I also gaurantee that if you added up the combined effort of 54 people attending one raid, I'd still have you beat compared to the effort put in by tradeskillers. Take an unusually long raid, say 3 hours, thats 162 hours of total combined effort from 54 people. Well maybe if you have 5 to 10 of those raids, will you come close to the combined total of hours I have put into gathering ingrediants for, and actually combining for, skill ups.

So if you wish to compare like for like i.e. person hours of effort, tradeskills do not get comparable reward for comparable effort with raids. Not even close.

**Wymp** · 04-30-2006, 03:36 PM

Hard to know where to stand on this. It would be great to see an "epic" reward for tradeskillers, but who gets it? Only people at 2100? Anyone with all trades over 250?

How do you gauge the reward item's strength? It surely couldn't match the highest-end raid drops, since you can get to 2100 without being level 70 or even entering a raid zone once in your career. Hell, you never even have to join a raid at all, ever. But, any sort of required or recommended level would be rather unfair to lower level tradeskillers with the same skills as those level 70.

And, like Ngreth portrayed, there's no real way to implement such a quest with any kind of tradeable drops and not expect others to monopolize the spawns once it becomes known what they are for. Also, not everyone with high tradeskill has millions of plat to spend on said items, so expecting them to be able to do so to survive the inevitible gouging would be monumentally insane.

Another thing .. what slot would this epic item go into? I'm quite sure it wouldn't be replacing my 2.0 in primary, and I highly doubt clerics would give up their epic shields for a secondary item (also, zerks couldn't equip it there along with a weapon). Would rangers give up their bows in their range slot?

Charm slot is an option, but that would be hard to implement fairly. Raid-obtained charms at the level people would want this epic to be are few and highly difficult to obtain even for the hardest and strongest raiders since they depend on luck with mob-drops and desirabilty within the guild. Not to mention they most all have some sort of stat-limiting condition (time of day, people around you, how many hairs on your head, etc.) that a purely tradeskill-defined item would probably not have.

I do hope they find a way to make it work, because it would be a great thing for tradeskillers to have; but I very much do not envy Ngreth and the others on deciding how to do it, lol.

**Aldier** · 04-30-2006, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Ysall

Of course we get (some) ingrediants from the bazaar. And the plat I used to pay for them I acquired by my own effort. The fact that others may have pharmed them does not mean I didn't put effort in to buy them.

I also gaurantee that if you added up the combined effort of 54 people attending one raid, I'd still have you beat compared to the effort put in by tradeskillers. Take an unusually long raid, say 3 hours, thats 162 hours of total combined effort from 54 people. Well maybe if you have 5 to 10 of those raids, will you come close to the combined total of hours I have put into gathering ingrediants for, and actually combining for, skill ups.

So if you wish to compare like for like i.e. person hours of effort, tradeskills do not get comparable reward for comparable effort with raids. Not even close.

Ok you want to count pure man hours?
4 hour raids are not uncommon (have seen some where they are upwards of 6). 3 is short imo. Add 5-6 days a week. Add time investigating spawns/events, working through progression is never just 1 run and done. Once you figure out the encounter you then have to spend the time repeating it to gear all 54 people AS well as deal with lockout/respawn timers.

So, lets take Anguish (5 day respawn). Now for just the 1st run, you spend 3 hours for 54 people and get 18 loots if you clear EVERY mob. Assuming 1 person does not get a loot until everyone has, that requires 3 clearings to get each person 1 item. So, 54 x 3 x 15 = 2430. This is not counting the respawn time where you cannot be working on these encounters.

So for 1 piece of high end gear (it is not fair to only gear yourself with raid loots and not let anyone else in your raid get anything) you spend over 2000 hours. Anguish is not the hardest thing in the game anymore but it is a common measuring point most high end raiders can understand (there are I think 8 or 9 guilds on my server in Anguish or higher). This is still assuming you are perfect in drop distribution and spent no time learning the encounters or fail any attempts.

By your "system/plan" whatever you want to call it. My level 51 alt can level all 7 tradeskills to 300 and get a piece of gear it took 54 level 70 people to obtain and that is going to be balanced?

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Idea - Tradeskill Epic

Idea - Tradeskill Epic

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