Idea - Tradeskill Epic

[Chakua]

I don't recall there being a request for a purely solo quest.

An item that required drops that most toons could farm or buy in bazaar or get from friends.

I would like to see one truly insane quest that put every tradeskill to the test that made you rely on others for their help because they are race/class specific. A quest that would encourage people to band together and help in the way that epic quests do. Nothing that requires guild help or raid mobs but something that makes the journey worthwhile.

Is one really great item for the casual non-raiding toon that is a hardscore tradeskiller REALLY going to create an imbalance anywhere in the game? Come on already. Do you not value your time, dedication, patience and resolve enough to think that your level 51 toon shouldn't deserve a really great crafted items if he has the skills to make it? If you are 2100 and level 51, it tells me that your love of tradeskills supercedes your love of progression and you are not the type of player that will ever make it to the end game anyway because you have different priorities. There is nothing wrong with that. What I do find a little sad and disheartening are people who obviously have a love of tradeskilling trivializing it into something that is insignificant. We are all just people playing a game and we all have different goals. Why undervalue tradeskilling and overvalue raiding? I am not saying they should be considered "equal" but at least look at it for what it really is.

The whole thought process on this really started with my thoughts of why would a craftsman, in a roleplaying sense, NOT have something really great. Who makes the weapons and armor in game? Why wouldn't that craftsman hold one of those items back for himself instead of giving them away to the silly gods who keep getting killed so others can take their goodies away from them?

[Ysall]

Following your own logic, its takes 54 x 3 x 15 = 2430 hours of total person effort to get 54 people loot.

That works out at 1 item of loot per 45 hours of person effort.

For the purposes of rounding, lets assume it took me 600 hour effort to max my tradeskills, and I get some form of tradeskill 'epic' for it thats equivalent to raid level loot.

Getting equivalent loot through a raid takes an average of 45 hours effort per item.

Getting it thought tradeskills takes about 600 hours effort per item.

That makes it about 10 times easier to get loot via a raid than as a reward from tradeskills.

The point I'm making here is that the logic that you should not have access to raid quality items outside of the raid system is flawed. If the reason for that logic is that the effort involved in winning loot via a raid is greater than the effort involved in tradeskills, thats clearly not the case.

[KyrosKrane]

Anything we create that is "doable" by a simple group, a raiding guild can do easily, and possibly monopolize. Say it needs certain rare drops. A raiding guild can often easily monopolize a zone, and possibly do so "legitimately" They are very practiced, so they can easily be the "first" to attack a mob.

Remember there are no "camps" in EQ.

Wouldn't having the drop(s) in an instanced zone solve this problem quite nicely?

In fact, let's assume that the drop is the "gate" item (as I think you call it -- basically the limiting factor) for this tradeskill epic. This is roughly equivalent to having a trigger mob for a raid event. In PoP and earlier, guilds were notorious for blocking others' progression by "blowing" the spawn. They would kill the trigger mob, causing the event to start, then simply let the event fail. This would render the event unusable for any other guild until the trigger respawned, usually three days later -- at which point the blocking guild would have a group there ready to blow the spawn again.

Instances were put in specifically to remove this sort of blocking. The limiter for a guild doing this raid changed from the trigger spawn to the lockout timer.

If the tradeskill epic were going to happen, I would foresee instances with lockout timers being the limiter. It's sort of like the Bellfast series in DoDH, where you have to complete a set of single group missions to obtain an item usable in tradeskills.

[KyrosKrane]

In theory, a level 18 can max any tradeskill, and a level 60 can become a Master Artisan, so the reward should be available to them.

Just a nitpick, but you could have a Master Artisan at level 51. NTCM is a general AA ability which has no prerequisites. It would be painfully slow to farm 18AA at that level, but it is theoretically possible.

[KyrosKrane]

Assuming for the sake of argument that the drops are in a static zone ...

Ngreth, if such a quest/item/whatever you want to call it were to come to pass, do you foresee the drops being tradable or no-trade? If they were tradable, then it becomes less of an issue if an uber-guild monopolizes the spawns -- some would still creep out into the bazaar. If, however, it were no-trade, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Either way, the monopolizing guild would eventually move on and other people would get a shot at the content.

[Aldier]

I don't recall there being a request for a purely solo quest.

Tradeskills are a solo achievement, and their reward should be the same, something we can achieve on our own, without relying on others.

Sure sounds like he wants a solo reward for his solo work.

[Aldier]

Following your own logic, its takes 54 x 3 x 15 = 2430 hours of total person effort to get 54 people loot.

That works out at 1 item of loot per 45 hours of person effort.

For the purposes of rounding, lets assume it took me 600 hour effort to max my tradeskills, and I get some form of tradeskill 'epic' for it thats equivalent to raid level loot.

Getting equivalent loot through a raid takes an average of 45 hours effort per item.

Getting it thought tradeskills takes about 600 hours effort per item.

That makes it about 10 times easier to get loot via a raid than as a reward from tradeskills.

And I think your numbers are way off base.

2430 hours of work from my raid gets me 1 item. That is 1 item for each 45hour of work, but that is not MY return rate that is the Guilds return rate. We are looking at how many hours are spent to get me 1 item from raiding compared with 1 item for me from tradeskilling.

The point I'm making here is that the logic that you should not have access to raid quality items outside of the raid system is flawed. If the reason for that logic is that the effort involved in winning loot via a raid is greater than the effort involved in tradeskills, thats clearly not the case.

Ok, I am going to guess you don't raid. Raiding is more than just the loot. Raiding is progressing as a large group through content. As a reward for taking time to not spend it on yourself and work with the group you have a chance at something better than you can get on your own. The drawback, you are not the only one trying for those items and for a raid force to work through more than 1 event is to be willing to share the rewards. There is little to no risk in tradeskills. Also, if you haven't paid attention, you can make DoN GM cultural armor, add a symbol, a tradeskill made type 7 aug with a Bazu/Last Blood aug (all these are made through tradeskills) it does rival much of the high end loot. Why do you think people use them? If your complaint is you spent all your timing maxing your tradeskills instead of joining a raiding guild then it is not the fault of the developers or anyone but yourself as to why you dont have uber loots. If uber loots are what you want, go join a raiding guild. You clearly have the time to do it if you maxed all tradeskills.

[KyrosKrane]

Also, if you haven't paid attention, you can make DoN GM cultural armor, add a symbol, a tradeskill made type 7 aug with a Bazu/Last Blood aug (all these are made through tradeskills) it does rival much of the high end loot. Why do you think people use them? If your complaint is you spent all your timing maxing your tradeskills instead of joining a raiding guild then it is not the fault of the developers or anyone but yourself as to why you dont have uber loots. If uber loots are what you want, go join a raiding guild. You clearly have the time to do it if you maxed all tradeskills.

Whoa, folks, let's take a step back, shall we? Deep breaths, everyone. =)

Aldier, I think you forgot something rather critical -- the Bazu and Last Blood augs do require a raid. Your example fails because they are specifically a raid reward, not a tradeskill reward. It just so happens that some parts of it require tradeskills. I know many people sporting bazu and last blood augs with zero tradeskills -- all the subcombines are done by other people who do have tradeskills.

In addition, your analysis of the raid time is a bit misleading -- you're trying to use the total time consumed by all members of the raid, then claim it just got you a single reward. It's true you only got one item during that time -- but 53 other people also got an item with no additional effort required. You can't ignore that.

If you want to use the total raid time, then you have to look at the total raid reward -- 54 items. If you want to use single member reward, then you have to look at single member time -- 45 hours.

[Aldier]

Considering me shut up, apparently I am wrong.

Ngreth, please put in an item with +350 hp/mana + 20 to all stats, +50 to all resists 100ac, +35 shielding/dot shielding/spellshielding/stunresist, +100 avoidance/combat effects/accuracy. Have required level 51 and make it so everyone can get it and fit in all slots.

[Chakua]

Wow, that would be a great raid item. Better than any item that currently drops in game.

I don't know why this had to turn into such a huge argument. I was just thinking of an Aid Grimel type quest with a reward similar to what the Signet was when it came out. The top players were doing that quest because it was as good or better than most things currently available at that time. Why couldn't this be similar?

Bickering is not necessary because it will end up getting the thread locked rather than providing some good discussion around something that could be really fun to accomplish should the developers ever choose to implement it.

[Ysall]

Ok, I am going to guess you don't raid. Raiding is more than just the loot. Raiding is progressing as a large group through content. As a reward for taking time to not spend it on yourself and work with the group you have a chance at something better than you can get on your own. The drawback, you are not the only one trying for those items and for a raid force to work through more than 1 event is to be willing to share the rewards. There is little to no risk in tradeskills. Also, if you haven't paid attention, you can make DoN GM cultural armor, add a symbol, a tradeskill made type 7 aug with a Bazu/Last Blood aug (all these are made through tradeskills) it does rival much of the high end loot. Why do you think people use them? If your complaint is you spent all your timing maxing your tradeskills instead of joining a raiding guild then it is not the fault of the developers or anyone but yourself as to why you dont have uber loots. If uber loots are what you want, go join a raiding guild. You clearly have the time to do it if you maxed all tradeskills.

I'm afraid thats a few rather incorrect assumptions. As a matter of fact I'm in a Demiplane flagged guild, and am fully familiar with how raids and content progression work. I've been doing it since Kunark. As for needing uberloots, I'm fine thank you. Was #1 server ench last time I looked.

[tuis]

"Aid Grimel is located at the top of the elevator in the Library in the Plane of Knowledge. Before you hail him, you must be flagged both from killing Bertoxxulous and rescuing Mylik and Adler. You must also have an unmodified skill of 220 in Blacksmithing."

The rest also require 220+ unmodified skills. Uber guilds won't be able to monopolize anything if the questgiver refuses to respond to anyone with less than 290 tradeskill average. Then the level 70 raider can drool over the level whatever tradeskiller who busted his ass buying, selling, and bartering to create his ONE uber item.

I'm in a raiding guild and even though some guildmates have taken up tradeskills with the sole purpose of creating cultural for their race, I'm the only one fool enough to do them all. And if I'm not mistaken, I'm one of two, maybe three, on the server to do it. It's not horribly unbalancing to offer us the shot at a single quality item as a reward for our rabid dedication to the craft. Just because its possible for a lvl 51 to reach 290+ in all general tradeskills does not mean such a quest would be open to them anyway.

A charm would be OK, but I would prefer something visible myself. Mage epic is crap. =p

[Ysall]

I like the idea of a charm becuase its scalable. I think something that rewards Artisans of all levels, Expert and above, would be great, not just the very top of the profession, the Master Artisans.

To keep the formula simple, you could set the charm to be linked to your weakest tradeskill. So if you have all maxed at around 250, but one is at 100, your charm would be in line with your 100 skill tradeskill.

Only thing I'm uncertain about is whether the classes that have access to extra tradeskills should have a benefit from maxing those too. It doesnt seem fair I would be able to max a charm more than a warrior, simply becuase I had an extra tradeskill, research, that they could never have access to. And it would offer a very unfair advantage to the few gnome rogues and casters out there who can max a theoretical 9 tradeskills. But then anyone mad enough to have actually maxed 9 tradeskills deserves every reward going in my book.

[Wymp]

Scalable is a nice idea ... but it would take implementing multiple quests again (just like the differing levels of trophies), or it couldn't really be of a suitable difficulty for varied skill-levels of tradespeople to obtain. Personally, I think Tuis was close saying 290 average. I'd say 275 or 280 would be more reasonable depending on which tradeskills it considers. Should it simply use the 7 base skills and disallow the efforts of shamans, rogues, tinkers, and researchers? Should it use your 7 highest skills? That would need to be addressed, definitely.

Also, using minimum skill checks like with Aid Grimel would prolly do the most to help keep this directed solely on tradeskillers whether the items needed are no drop or tradeable. It would probably be kinda like the pieces for BiC, eventually, too. It took awhile, but once most people knew what those pieces were for, they usually had no desire to even ask for them if they weren't doing the quest themselves. No-drop pieces for a tradeskill-only quest would not be much fought over by people who cannot use them at all. I'd shy away from making drops for a 300+hp/mana item tradeable. That just screams price-gouging and farming issues.

But then .. where do you put the drops? Will they just get jammed into some existing mob's loot table? If so, which mobs and what other drop's rate does that skew? And the difficulty .. does the quest get gimped to barely allow lower (character) level tradesfolk to obtain the reward? Also, remember that while Aid Grimel was a well-designed quest, it also required continued PoP flagging as you progressed thru it. Probably something not available to an under-65 tradesperson striving for this reward for all their hard work.

As for slot, charm slot is the only one I can see most people being able to use an item like this in without giving up a necessary item or effect. Tuis' mage epic may be crap; but my necro one is quite handy, lol.


On a side note, I doubt Ysall remembers me from my EMarr days as Wymp Weeknee, the gnome warrior; but I definitely vouch for Ysall as always raiding something somewhere, heh. Not simply a tradeskill junkie.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Wouldn't having the drop(s) in an instanced zone solve this problem quite nicely?

In fact, let's assume that the drop is the "gate" item (as I think you call it -- basically the limiting factor) for this tradeskill epic. This is roughly equivalent to having a trigger mob for a raid event. In PoP and earlier, guilds were notorious for blocking others' progression by "blowing" the spawn. They would kill the trigger mob, causing the event to start, then simply let the event fail. This would render the event unusable for any other guild until the trigger respawned, usually three days later -- at which point the blocking guild would have a group there ready to blow the spawn again.

Instances were put in specifically to remove this sort of blocking. The limiter for a guild doing this raid changed from the trigger spawn to the lockout timer.

If the tradeskill epic were going to happen, I would foresee instances with lockout timers being the limiter. It's sort of like the Bellfast series in DoDH, where you have to complete a set of single group missions to obtain an item usable in tradeskills.

Though possible. This "punishes" (not my words... this is from some players...) people who want to solo. There will not be any solo instances made... Minimum is 3 players. So people would be forced to group for this.

No inherently that is something I am not against.

Personally I do not mind forcing tradeskillers to group (in general I do not like forcing them to RAID. I do what I am told there.... but do not like it) as I think periodic grouping is healthy. I am just going with what players have stated about not wanting to group (Still being Devil's Advocate)