New Tradeskill UI on Test

[Mathaetaes]

if we do client-side recipe books, I'm guessing everyone with access to eqtoolbox will have a full, GM recipe book in 2 weeks, just like how things worked with the LoY maps. Not that I mind that much, but since it's gonna happen, you may as well ensure that it happens equally to both the eqtoolbox cronies as well as the non-toolbox players.

As for using the window for skillups, I'm all for it. I have no idea what RSI stands for, but if it means that ridiculous tedium of dragging items and hitting combine, then yah.. I hate that too. Sure, I spent hours ctrl+clicking arrow components to get my skill up to 192, where it's stayed due majorly to lack of money. This doesn't mean that I want every other fletcher to have to do the same mind-numbingly mundane process.

To be honest, I like the way the tradeskill window was originally designed. 45 points? so be it... I can come here and get recipes all the way up to 250 anyway, this just saves me the time.

The only problem I see, however, is that some unknown recipes will now be known... this includes quested items, etc... While I like the idea of having my recipe book already full, dropping recipe books into the game (similar to disc tomes) may help things along... I'm talking like LARGE recipe books.. you go buy a beginners baking book to learn all baking recipes from 0 to 75, etc. Then mobs can drop rare recipes that are scribed, like spells, into the book. This means non-tradeskillers can finally sell something to the tradeskillers (mob-dropped recipe books), and we still don't have to worry about revealing all the recipes that exist.

As for storage... the recipe books could be handled very similarly to spell books, although there are significantly fewer spells and may thus cause a space issue. Just an idea... one I'd rather not have implemented (I like making mundane tasks fun), but it may solve some of your problems.

[Ursawraith]

Originally posted by Mathaetaes
I have no idea what RSI stands for

RSI is Repetitive Stress Injury, I also saw RSD which is Repetitive Stress Disorder.

I.E. Carpel Tunnel

[Jenkin Flintfoot]

My MTP Experiment with the New UI

I decided to do up 40 combines for MTPs when I got home from work today.

Highlight:
-It appears that Tanker's statement about recipes only being partially flagged for canLearn is still true. Even after successfully crafting Steel Boning, Woven Mandrake and Misty Thicket Picnic, the recipes did not appear in the list. I can understand the MTP as its part of the Solstice Earring quest...but Steel Boning? This will certainly be fixed before Live push.

Despite a staggering run of bad luck (/em kicks RNG in the nads) I'll say that GMing will still be a PITA...just not the huge one that pre-neoUI GMs had to deal with.

More experimenting to come...

-Jenkin

[calidorn2]

This is definately a further dumbing down of EQ but par for the course lately.

Kinda feel this is going to hurt tradeskillers who try to make a plat out of it as now there will be soo many more people willing to do tradeskills. Lots were put off by the effort previously. Gonna put a huge dent in the average dedicates bank balance as competition for sales sky-rockets.

In reference to the level range of visible, greater than your skill level combines. Something I do not see much lately is the once commonly accepted belief that the best range of trivials to attempt to get the best skill ups was around 10 - 15 points higher than your current skill. Is this not so any more ? If it is so then it is surely something to consider when deciding on any reduction on the present cap.

All in all it will certainly make life easier for everyone but it still feels like a slap in the face. Give us a great UI but steal all the satisfaction.

They introduced the Aid Grimmel quest with all its stupid flag requirements that stopped so many of the tradeskill > raid players. At the time I thought it would have been nice to have something similar but without the flag needs for dedicated tradeskillers who will never see PoFire. So now it really is time for something like this before the UI goes live. I have a few suggestions -
(1) For a limited time (say a couple of months) anyone with a trophy can hand it in for an upgraded model. (singular)
(2) Different trophies should be combinable into one trophy with the mod for all the relevant tradeskills on it. ( I know it is my own stupid fault but when doing subcombines and alternating between crafts I nearly always forget to change trophies at some point) - permanent NPC/quest please.
(3) Some quest entirely for high end tradeskillers. Combines cannot be attempted under 252 skill ??. One for each craft plus a multiple craft quest. No flags please. I would suggest a 7 main tradeskill quest only since not everone can do tinker/poison/alchemy. Also no 40k bazaar selling components like the tomes for the Phlactery (spelling?) quest thing. Tradeskills ok, tradeskills NOT bank balance, NOT raid attendance, NOT level dependant....Purely tradeskills.

For those that say don't reward those with trophies cos you chose to give up after 4 attempts, I say yahboo to you. If you didn't keep going till you got it regardless of how many fails it took then you don't deserve it. And if the reward was sweetened a little you might have that bit more incentive to get it while you could.

So how about it ? Instead of pickpocketing our wallets while you give us a hug how about a lil' lovin ? Even a courtesy spit would be nice......

Sage Calidorn Realmweaver. Luclin Server.
250 in all tradeskills (Feb '03)
7 trophies (Feb 03)
575aa points (Jan 03)
etc, etc, etc.....

[Milry]

new ts UI

I admit, I'm just a dabbler in the trades,my highest skill is 200 in Baking,so I haven't been torturing my wrist or my real life schedule to achieve anything at all in EQ. I really like keeping this game just a game, not an endurance test. My real life job provides that. So, with this in mind, I have to say, I like the new UI. It looks like it will take some of the mind numbing repetitions out of tradeskilling. I wish they'd do the same for xp grinding. I understand most of the veterans who post on these boards don't share my indifference to leveling and skilling, and I love reading the posts from you dedicated, hard-working obsessives.
You entertain and dazzle me with your perserverence,cleverness and wit. I never hope to be in your league in this game, but I do appreciate good work. I think this UI is good work too, and look forward to it and all the messages on this board that it will continue to generate.

[binke]

I still strongly feel that one should not be able to gain trade skill up with this new system. Sure let them able to combine item above the current skill level but not allowed to gain skill up if you use the mass combine option. I truly feel this is fair to everyone.

Please what do you tradeskillers think of this? If you agree please log on to the test server and do a feedback. I am sure this is one department in the game we do not want to dumb down on. I mean the game has greatly transformed when I started playing back in 2002 but tradskills have kept on its original idea. Look at other games and there current in game economics they don’t come close to what Everquest achieved. It is amazingly hard, frustrating and a HUGE time sink to become a true grandmaster in Everquest. But the pay off is well worth it for the few that has put in the time and dedication. Now we are about to open a flood gate to allow everyone to become a 200+ in all tradeskill in one night with a simple press of a button.

Don’t get me wrong I am soooo looking forward to this new system to make the easy of sub combines and that is what it should be used for not to gain fast skill ups. If one is able to gain skill ups with this system, there would be no pride with becoming a grandmaster since pretty much anyone can become one with ease. Please don’t let the last thing that keeps me and many other people in the game become tarnished.

Also the GNOMES DEMAND NEW TINKER ITEMS!!!


Sincerely the GNOME!

[Koru]

Agreed on not making some old trophy vs a nerfed new trophy, there's enough grandfathering in EQ without going out and seeking to have more done. It's always pissed me off too, and I've been playing since beta so it's not jealousy at all the old players. Since the learnable (sorry, canLearn is just too programmery for me to use) and automatic list is set manually it would make sense that they'll keep some recipies out of them, perhaps adding them later to either or both lists.

For instance in the case of a recipe that's been in the game for years and still no one is even close to figuring it out it would be possible for them to put up subcombines for it. Later when it's been around for ages it can be added to the auto list.

This thing's still being tested, and the damage to the tradeskiller guesswork has so far been done by... fellow tradeskillers. We may say we don't like being spoiled but how many of you looked to see if you'd see some new recipies in there? Even though you knew this thing was still being worked on, even though you knew some recipes might have slipped in that shouldn't have? I know I did. If I were the kind of person who wouldn't do something like that, I probably would not be reading or posting on message boards dedicated to spreading information about the game.

Oh, and did anyone else notice the tribute reference in the interface? Sorting by Tribute name. Would seem to indicate that tributes will be either tradeskilled combines, or will be offered through a tradeskill container.

[Jobrill]

I've been Tradeskilling since I first started the game just prior to Kunark release, when I used practically my first platinum to buy a large sewing kit so I could make the wolf pelts I kept getting in the gfay newbie yard into armor.

I got my fishing and Alcohol Tolerance to 100+ while waiting on boats because the Luclin/PoP insta-ports didn't exist. I maxed out my smithing on Banded armor and sold suits for my livelihood back before Metal Sheets stacked, when I had to run all the way to Halas to get Large Banded Armor Molds to make a commission for an Ogre customer. I ran between High-hold pass and Freeport to get all the stuff for Fine Plate armor when it was first implemented. I've been there, done that when it comes to tradeskills, for the most part.

And I say it's ABOUT TIME for this. I do not get a sense of accomplishment from doing 500 combines in order to make Solstice Robe or Wyvern mask, or one piece of Fine Plate or Hurricane armor. I get a sense of accomplishment when I accept a payment from a satisfied customer, or a word of gratitude from a friend. I get a sense of accomplishment when I see "You have gotten better at Tailoring!(175)"

Let the Macroers have thier field day, The answer is to punish THEM, not us.

This Interface needs to go in. Personally, I think the Interface basically as it is on Test is pretty **** good. Just list some of the really basic neg40 trivial items to start with, then let us add more ourselves by attempting to combine using the "Experiment" method, at which point it will be added to our recipe list, regardless of Trivial or success/failure.

Nice, clean, and simple.

No, I do not think this dumbs down the game, just takes away more tedium and idiocy so we can get to the actual fun part, and that's a GOOD thing. Even with this change, I still have many nights to look foward to in TOFS getting Velium so I can max Smithing and Tailoring, and that's fine with me.

I say, Thanks EQLive Team, for this great new interface. Hope to see it live soon.

[eqNichola]

- This change isn't 'dumbing down'. That means making things require less intelligence. Few things were more MINDLESS than (eg) skilling up on Mino Hero Brew. The only way any INTELLIGENT being can do THAT is by entering a trance-like state where the higher functions are temporarily suspended and one becomes a clicking AUTOMATON.

- I don't care how many other people have the same tradeskills as me. I don't care whether they had it easier, harder, or whether they woke up one day to find a glitch had given them 600 in all skills.

- I didn't get into tradeskills to make money, there are far better ways to make money in EQ.

- A high tradeskill level in EQ is, for me, a strange thing to have a sense of accomplishment or pride about. But maybe that's just me.

- If I wanted to derive a sense of accomplishment and the adulation of those around me from a tedious long winded task, I would build a ship in a bottle, or a 7 storey house of cards, or I would push a baked bean from the Old Kent Road to Downing Street using only my nose (someone did this). As it is, I want to create items in EQ. So I am THREE THUMBS UP for this change!

[borblefoot furtoe]

Okay a few things here.

First:
"First, those that are debating how many receipes you should be able to see beyond your trivial. Why is this an issue"

Because you currently can't write down a recipe above your trivial level, go to the bazaar, stock up on the ingredients, and then one click combine your way to skill ups.

It is not the listing of the recipies themeselves that is the problem its listing the non-trivial recipies in combination with the 1 click combine. Many custum tradeskill UI's already have interfaces with recipe lists in them and I don't think thats what anyone is objecting to.


Secondly.

to those who have problems with removing skill ups from the new interace. It seems many of you are concerened about the many subcomines many recipies require to do. Well if you really look at them They are usually trivial to the person skilling up on them. I can't think of the last time I got a skillup on a subcombine of a recipie I was trying to do for skillups.

And aside from the farming that is where the real tedium in tradeskills lies. the many subcombines you have to do before you can try the actual skill up combine.

A good example is cermonial solstice robes which are a common post 188 skill up item. To do a run of approx 133 attempts

You need to start off with approx the following

400 silk swatches combines
800 celestial essences
400 blessed dust of tunare combines

Thats a ton fo clicking all of which is most likely trivial to the person doing the combiing and assumes you are buying your gem studded chains in the bazaar. That would be greatly simplified under the new tradeskill system it would be much easier to do all those subcombines with the tradeskill interface. And I don't have a problem with that. The final skill up combine, however should have to be done the old way.

Removing the skill ups from the new interface. means you could see every recipie in the game on its menu and try combining them if you had the ingredients. YOu just would not get a skill up for doing it the easy way.


Removing skillups from the new UI gives us the best of both. It allows the skill itself to remain challenging to master while removing the tedium for those who have advanced their skill or could care less about skill ups and just want to throw plat and items at a possible success.

Borblefoot Furtoe
Storm Warden
Resolution
Firiona Vie Server

[Teedyo]

Had some thoughts while reading this thread so thought I'd give my 2cp worth. Thoughts slightly modified after reading Tanks's post on autoLearn and canLearn.

1. I prefer to support the RP aspect of EQ and think that recipes should be added in toto only after they have been attempted; ie. as a journal. A year ago I would have said after a success but, since tradeskill containers no longer eat invalid ingredients, that would be moot. I disagree with the autoLearn concept.

*I know some of you specifically dislike this idea but...what about all those combines you _haven't_ done on your journey to GM? Why should they be automagically added to your book? I don't think that one more combine is too much to ask: and does it really matter it it's a combine you never intended to do again? Remember that there were no flags to track recipes available prior to this new UI. I really do appreciate your opinion/position and had I made it to GM on multiple skills prior to this mod; one more (unnecessary) combine could possibly be just enough to make me scream loudly. Please don't take this as a flame in anyway; just as another opinion from a different viewpoint. I too would have to go back and do combines I never intended to do again if I wanted them in my book.

2a. Buying/opening a book should only add HEADERS for the recipes contained therein and the combine button grayed out until the actual recipe has been attempted. We all know that some recipes are obscure and I don't think that too much information should be given.
2b. Perhaps after some trivial level, HEADERS for all book recipes should show with the actual recipes appearing after an attempt.

3. HEADERS for quest recipes should appear after talking to the trigger NPC. I would prefer this to occur after saying the proper phrase but, bugs seem to exist.......
ex., Speaking with Lewena(SP) adds a HEADER for Lewena's Secret(or whatever it is to be called) but not the actual recipe until it is attempted/succeeded.

4. GM's (250 unmodified) + trophy allows them to see HEADERS for all (canLearn) recipes available for the applicable tradeskill. I think this would be a nice plus for the work done and a little more incentive to go beyond 248.

5. Recipes in the book should be categorized by tradeskill for easier perusal.


These are just my thoughts/opinions.I have not yet had the opportunity to examine the new UI as it currently exists. Going by Tank's post, I'm quite sure #3 above isn't going to happen. oh, well.

[Aethn]

The greatest Tradeskills change in the histroy of EQ and all you people can do is whine how its going to be a bit easier for noobs to skillup.

Suck it up and get over it !!! Carpal Tunnel sucks for everyone !!

I had CTS surgery on BOTH hands about 8 years ago. Let me tell you waking up at 3 am with tears running down your face from the excruciating pain is horrific. At one point I would have agreed to have my hands chopped off as long as the pain went away.

Thank GOD that SOE has finally made tradeskills ADA compliant.

[Slippyblade]

Ok, recent tests...

First off, it looks like the Pottery Wheels are broke. Either that or nobody has started working on the pottery recipes yet. When I was on just now, I only got about 10 recipes on the pottery wheel and they were mostly block conversions. Also, I ran a run of Small Bowls. Got the message "You have learned the recipe for Unfired Small Bowl!" and then the recipde for Infused Skyiron Scales showed up in my listing... This was immediatly /bug'd

Also, ran a run of Fetid Essence until I got the "You have learned the recipe for Fetid Essence!" message, however I can't find/see the recipe header in the list box at all... zoned and retured and still nothing. I may have learned it, but it aint there... This was also bugged.

Would it be possible to sticky another thread that was purely for functional/bug/mechanical discussion of the UI and leave this one for speculation of the impact of the UI?

[Sylphan]

Apparently, the way it works now is you can see recipes whose difficulty is up to yourskill + 29.

Remember that trivial is not the same as difficulty -- trivial = difficulty * 4 / 3 + 2.

If that continues to high levels, you'll be able to see 250-trivial recipes when your skill is 160, and you'll be able to see every recipe when your skill is somewhere in the low 220s.

As for my opinion of it...

What I want most from this new interface is a button in the options window to turn it off. I want my containers to open to the 'experiment' mode just like they always did.

[Dyllwin]

If they don't want to set an option to toggle back and forth, then I would suggest all non-world tradeskill containers open in container-mode first, with a button to reach the combine-mode window.

World-containers should always open in combine-mode though.