New Tradeskill UI on Test

[Brenlo]

Hello all,

I wanted to let you know that the new Tradeskill UI is now on test. Log in and try it out.

Brenlo the Trader

[Jobrill]

Having just returned from trying this out on Test, I can safely say that I want this on Live ******. NOW.

Anyway, I love it.

[Tudamorf]

This interface is nicely done. However, at skill 0 I was allowed to do skill 45 combines, and I was also allowed to search through (what seemed like) all possible combines between 0 and 45.

If the same is true for high level combines, then what I feared might happen has come true. All recipes will immediately be known, and macroers will be able to easily use this tool to make insta-GMs faster than ever. As long as your product doesn't require subcombines, all you have to do is click the same spot on the screen every 3 seconds ad infinitum.

For legitimate trade skillers, the interface doesn't speed skill gains, since it still has the new delay nerf built in, and doesn't seem to allow subcombines (though I can hardly tell at skill 0). It will save you from moving the mouse around, though.

Overall, a nice interface with a few poor choices in implementation. Two suggestions:

1. Recipes should be hidden until you make them the first time.

2. The skill->trivial gap of 45 should either be reduced to about 5 (with the exception that GMs can use it for any item), OR skill gains should be exempted from the interface.

[Brenlo]

Thanks Tudamorf,

I will pass this along.

Brenlo the Brewer

[Koru]

Very nice. This would certainly help me a lot in skill up runs with mostly with unstackable components - like say half of tinkering. (porous mineral blocks are my bane, why oh why must lucin components be unstackable unlike LoY ones /cry). Darn, now I'm looking forward to this thing way too much. The coloring of the recipes is a nice touch to see what's trivial, like that. Seemed to show recipes approximately 50 points above my skill, which is a little too big, I'm not sure I'd go with as small a range as 5 points however. Most newbie recipies trivial around 15-20, so someone completely new to the trade would see nothing, which I doubt is the intent with this. A range that would still give a newbie to the trade some recipies might be better.

What would really help for me would be an ability to edit the names of the favorites. Especially in multiple possibility combines like clumps of dough. I usually use just couple of types of eggs, so it would be nice to be able to save as say 'Clump of dough - looted basilisk' in my favorites to differentiate from my snake egg ones.

Also at the moment it seems that if you add to a favorite and then search it will list the favorite twice, so that's small thing to look at.

How about people who are currently using tradeskill containers as packs? That's one I didn't have time to test since it's so late. Will there be an option to default to old or new in options? I use collapsible myself but I could see it getting very annoying to get the menu up when trying to find that one elusive item to bank it from various sewing kits, fletching kits, spits and so on.

[fenedari]

There are actually many problems with the interface at this time.
First implement though so is that surprising?
So far the biggest thing has been a way to put in new recipes or notes about recipes.
Unfortunatly this is part of the "dumbing down" of everquest. I agree that the spread of what you can see should be narrowed at least until you make something.

Some problems so far:
Does not have every recipe. (not surprising)
Does not handle enchanted jewelry making (probably not embued combines either, have not checked)
Most cultural recipes do not seem to be in list, nor the PoP receipes.
Smithing is cut off at 183 (ish, sorry, forgot exact number)

Of interesting note on the plus side:
Does show your skill or your skill modified.
Skill max is 252 with modifier.
There are recipes that triv over 300 but you cannot see them unless you have modifier equiped.

All in all, I believe this is an excellent first try on this interface. It is easy, quick and intuitive.

Comments on the above post about "legit tradeskillers"
What does that mean exactly?
Do you not use control click or am I a non-legit tradeskiller because I use it? This interface is perhaps the best thing that has come along for a long time for us. As to being able to make a combine that is higher than 45 points higher than your level, you have always been able to do that, so I do not understand the reference. Forgive me, I do not mean to sound like I am flaming you, I just don't understand your objections. The macroers will continue to use their macros. You still have to make subcombines, just like now. Again, I am semi new here and do not mean to offened, I just don't understand an objection that includes reference to not being able to go faster or being able to put 20 items in packs and have the interface do seven subcombines and the final combine without any help. Tired and rambling a bit. The best way to look at it not doing subcombines it to think of Wu's tailoring.

Noted post that hit while I was posting. At this time using tradeskill containers as packs is a bit of a pain. One extra click I can live with though Unknown at this time if there will be an option to not open the tradeskill window when clicking on trade containers. I am guessing if they do, it will be through the options window (much like the tageting ring).

Fenedari Freespirit
60th Lvl Enchanter of Test
Grandmaster Jeweler

[Kathodos]

Firstly, I have not seen the new Interface screen yet (still at work), so these are my thoughts in response to what Tudamorf has suggested.

Originally posted by Tudamorf
This interface is nicely done. However, at skill 0 I was allowed to do skill 45 combines, and I was also allowed to search through (what seemed like) all possible combines between 0 and 45.

If the same is true for high level combines, then what I feared might happen has come true. All recipes will immediately be known, and macroers will be able to easily use this tool to make insta-GMs faster than ever. As long as your product doesn't require subcombines, all you have to do is click the same spot on the screen every 3 seconds ad infinitum.

The new UI screen will not affect ‘Macroers’. If you make it slower than their current methods, they won’t use it, but it certainly won’t stop them or slow them down. You will not beat them by trying to add delays to the new interface; you will only make Tradeskills more tedious for legitimate players. Sony has always stated that they’re looking for a good money sink to balance the economy; making Tradeskills readily accessible to everyone without making it tedious is a very good one.

As for the Recipes becoming known, that has it’s pro’s and con’s. On one hand, recipes that have never before been known can now be attempted, meaning there will be less redundant content in the game (what use is a recipe that’s been there since the Original EQ Release, if noone’s ever used it?). On the other hand, it may reduce the sense of exploration though this is largely absent already thanks to spoiler sites like EQTraders and all the Class boards.

If there are recipies that are currently unknown and not listed in any in game Tradeskill books, etc, it would be nice to have the existing books updated or new ones added to cover all the available recipies.

I have a few thoughts on this, which I will detail at the end of this post.

Originally posted by Tudamorf
For legitimate trade skillers, the interface doesn't speed skill gains, since it still has the new delay nerf built in, and doesn't seem to allow subcombines (though I can hardly tell at skill 0). It will save you from moving the mouse around, though.

If it doesn’t speed up skill gains, that’s fine. If it in fact makes them slower, that’s a totally different thing. Keep in mind that many tradeskillers can do combines quite quickly now by arranging the backpacks on screen for minimal mouse movement. The new interface should have a minimal delay between uses so as not to aggravate and slow these people down.

No change to the UI will 'beat the Macroers'. They will just update their scripts and keep going. The UI should be aimed to make the current processes easier, without superfluious delays and tedium.

Originally posted by Tudamorf
Overall, a nice interface with a few poor choices in implementation. Two suggestions:

1. Recipes should be hidden until you make them the first time.

I personally agree with this idea, but with one slight change.

I would prefer that Recipes should remain hidden until you ATTEMPT them for the first time with the correct recipe. If I have been unable to make a complicated item with a high trivial, but I know how, why should the system punish me?

Originally posted by Tudamorf
2. The skill->trivial gap of 45 should either be reduced to about 5 (with the exception that GMs can use it for any item), OR skill gains should be exempted from the interface.

I think this is a very bad idea. In fact, I would encourage the opposite – that the range of recipies shown be greatly increased, especially in the lower skill levels. The interface should remove the RSI causing hoard of clicks required for current tradeskills, WITHOUT impeding the way that people currently perform these tasks.

At low levels, it’s very common to attempt cheap recipes with significantly higher trivials than your current skill level in order to skill up. It allows quicker progression through the "useless" skill levels and does not damage the economy in any way.

At higher skill levels, it’s rare that a player will try a recipe quite so far beyond them, due to time spent farming components, cost of combines, etc. As such, it's not really necessary to limit the levels of combines. Giving the players access to recipies of any skill level, but with an indication as to how likely they would be to successfully create the combined item would be more benificial.

Take Fish Rolls for example, trivial at 135. Many of the current tradeskillers have used these to skill up Baking from level 0 skill to 135, as it’s cheap, and the items are easily accessible. Why should the new interface force them to resort to recipes that require RSI clicking or rare/farmed/foraged components that make recipes with lower trivials just to skill up?

Now compare that to something like Cultural Armor. It contains many sub combines, rare farmed components, and high skill levels. It's not as though a level 5 player will "accidentally" try one of these combines and lose their items. They already know if the recipie's existance from boards such as EQTraders if they do a web search (because it's so hard to locate and follow tradeskill recipie information/component locations in the game), and as such the net gain here is making it more difficult than it needs to be.

My Thoughts

An alternative to the above issues, though likely one that would require significantly more development, would be to make a Tradeskilling Journal.

Imagine you start the game with no recipes. Any recipe you attempt (with correct components) is added to your journal, allowing you to single click that combine from that point on. Any Tradeskill books you come across on NPC’s (dropped or purchased) and read will have their recipes added to your Journal. Any recipe should be able to be deleted from the Tradeskill Journal or have some sort of sorting system in place to avoid it becoming over crowded.

In this way, players would be encouraged to travel around the game world to buy the Tradeskill recipe books from NPC’s, in order to be able to find and record new recipes. They could also swap recipes with friends by collecting the components and attempting a combine, thus adding it to their book.

UPDATE: Most of my concerns have been addressed by Brenlo/Tanker in the last post on Page 2 of this thread by the canLearn flag.

[binke]

I have an every simple solution that should keep most people happy. I am surprise no one has suggested this before, if they have sorry to have repeated it. Make it so that you can’t do skill up combines with the new tradeskill interface. In other words the only combines you are allowed to perform are only trivial ones. So in order to get skill ups you have to do the old way. One at a time like we all did. Skill up should be earned, not done automatically this would be completely unfair to all us decanted tradeskillers. Would really hurt the market if anyone can become a master over night. Wish I had some cash on the test servers to play around with it.

Also how we to test out items like casino and tradeskill interface if we have no means to test them out. Just a suggestion maybe you can testbuff some cash on us. Shrug just an idea Brenlo.

Also us gnomes want new TINKER ITEMS! or else we will revolt !!

[Kathodos]

Originally posted by binke
...Make it so that you can’t do skill up combines with the new tradeskill interface. In other words the only combines you are allowed to perform are only trivial ones. So in order to get skill ups you have to do the old way. One at a time like we all did. Skill up should be earned, not done automatically this would be completely unfair to all us decanted tradeskillers.

I remember Tradeskilling when:

• Your screen was 640x480 and the viewport was a small section in the middle.
• You could only open one backpack at a time.
• You could only pick up a single item at a time by clicking on the item and using the scrollbar to select how many you wanted to move, then clicking OK.
• - There was no CTRL+Click to move a single item.
• - There was no SHIFT+Click to move a stack of items.
• - You couldn't left click on a stack and type in the number of items.
• You could only buy and sell items to vendors one at a time.
• If you hit combine on a tradeskill container with an invalid recipe inside, it destroyed everything in the container.
• - Oops, left my Short Sword of Ykesha in the sewing kit and hit combine, better take the guild to Lower Guk to camp a new one.
• - Oops, had a stack of rubies in my jewelers kit instead of a single gem, and hit combine. It ate them all.
• - Oops, had left one component out of my smithing recipe and hit combine. My Smithy Hammer that's meant to be returned on success or fail was eaten along with everything else.
• Some Tradeskills (such as Tailoring, and Tinkering) had very few recopies for progression between the low hundreds and the 200 ranges. Tinkering around the time of Velious required several hundred thousand platinum and full time farming to get over 200!
• I still had pain free use of my wrists, and repeated clicking didn't bring on searing pain!

Yes, it sucks that a lot of us have done Tradeskills the hard way (harder for some than others, depending on when you started) and now things come along that improve the game and make it easier at the same time, but we should be happy for those that follow us rather than try to block their pursuit.

[Lilosh]

Aye Mr Brenlo.


Is there a chance we might find a way to /testbuff varying levels of tradeskill finesse?


I'm not asking for 250 in Smithing or Tailoring, but if I could somehow get 200 fletching, or 188 smithing, or what have you, it might be easier than to start a character on test for the sole purpose of skilling up Tailoring.


Or, if you think it's a bad idea, I'll understand.



-Lilosh

[Rhone]

One of the big things I was hoping for out of this was a way to make subcombines faster, easier, and less strenuous on my wrists. What about putting in recipes for full stacks of things? So one click uses up 20 of each component and gives you a stack of 20, or even 19 with no chance to fail if it's trivial, or something like that. I'm just getting really tired of making 2 bags full of the same thing, 1 click at a time.

[Ruldar]

Here is a screenshot of it:

[Karloss]

Originally posted by binke
[B]I have an every simple solution that should keep most people happy. I am surprise no one has suggested this before, if they have sorry to have repeated it. Make it so that you can’t do skill up combines with the new tradeskill interface. In other words the only combines you are allowed to perform are only trivial ones. So in order to get skill ups you have to do the old way. One at a time like we all did.

Please do not do this!

A lot of people haven't done much tradeskilling because of RSI problems....I myself cannot do more then 30-50 combines before my wrist starts aching and it doesn't take a lot more before pain sets in.

This new UI sounds like a godsend and I may even be able to think about working towards the aide grimel quest if this gets implemented correctly.

I am sure ppl that have GMed tradeskills already may get upset if this does stuff that isn't trivial but you've had the added bonus of making a lot of PP and establishing yourselves already.

[Tudamorf]

Originally posted by fenedari
As to being able to make a combine that is higher than 45 points higher than your level, you have always been able to do that, so I do not understand the reference. Forgive me, I do not mean to sound like I am flaming you, I just don't understand your objections.

My objections?

1) The interface trivializes skill gains. All you have to do is buy 10 packs worth of items and hit a mouse button several hundred times. You don't even have to look at the screen, you can watch a movie and just repeat the motion blindly. Trade skills should require more active involvement to raise. Without effort, the reward is meaningless; it's like getting to level 65 by just pressing the left mouse button 1,000,000 times while you watch TV -- /yawn.

2) The interface further encourages macroing. Although you will never stop macroers, you should not ignore them or add features that make their job a lot easier. Currently, you need complicated scripts and software to macro trade skills, and even then you run into problems. With the new interface, you can program a game pad or other popular consumer device to easily raise your skill. Many users who would have never bothered with complicated macros will suddenly see how easy it is. And veteran macroers will have a much easier time programming their scripts.

My solution to #1 and #2: Allow the interface only for items that trivial at 5 points above your skill level (or, allow it only for trivial combines, as suggested above). Alternatively, exempt skill gains entirely from the interface, i.e., make it impossible to raise skill if you use the interface. This way you make skill gains mean something, while also not encouraging macroing for skill gains using the new interface.

Originally posted by Kathodos
The interface should remove the RSI causing hoard of clicks required for current tradeskills, WITHOUT impeding the way that people currently perform these tasks.

Once again: effort precedes reward. If you remove the effort involved with a task, you aren't rewarding the gamer, you're punishing them in the long term by robbing them of their reward. Levels, AAs, phat l3wtz, trade skills, flags, special titles, spells, raid kills -- they all mean nothing in and of themselves. It's the effort involved in getting those things that gives them meaning, both to you and to others.

And for most trade skills, the majority of the effort of raising the skill is the clicking. Take that away, and you might as well just give the player a /maxme command that sets their skill at 250.

Sure, clicking isn't perfect as an effort-inducing device. But if you're going to request that they take it away, you better suggest an alternative.

[Ndaara]

hrm.... as one of those folks with RSI issues, the new UI looks fantastic!

As one who can't do more than 3 stacks of combines at a time, because i get bored spitless doing the same repetitive thing, i also think it looks great.

I am not sure how i feel about this. I do not think the clicking should be the limiting factor to whether you get to skill up or not. I am not sure I want everything to be hunted, either. I CERTAINLY do not want everything to be hunted AND no drop, i know this thanks to Shadowscream Steel Smithing (UGH).

I do feel very accomplished that I scratched and clawed my way to 250 smithing, but it is so terribly tedious. There are a bazillion subcombines to make the blue diamond cultural armor which is good in that it keeps my competition down. But all those subcombines drive me nuts (and cross-trade requirements, especially a darned enchanter for multiple steps).

I am trying to figure out WHY it feels like such a monumental accomplishment. It's certainly NOT endless clicking, and going to the computer store to replace yet another mouse and/or keyboard that's been pounded through. It's NOT the hours and hours of green farming that I've done to work up the skills. Although both of those things took a lot of time and effort, but they were essentially mindless tasks for me. .

I love creating useful things. That is what makes my accomplishments feel good to me.

My magician finally completed her epic quest. I have literally chipped away at it for more than 3.5 years. Although she has a better primary item, she proudly wields that epic and i imagine she always will, but i'm not proud of it because I had to camp rare drops from rare spawns. Once again, mindless.

So i'm not really clear on why these things feel like great accomplishments to me. But i DO know it would be terrific to buy a mouse and think it might last longer than my toothbrush!