New Upcoming Updates @ eqlive

[Kilauea Bacchus]

Thanks Maddoc

[Cantatus]

Appreciate the info Maddoc.

Will be nice to not have to worry about getting carpal tunnel from tradeskills anymore. Of course, I did tradeskills so much that I now can only type with my tongue.

[Kilauea Bacchus]

Well that beats my holding the CTRL key down with my toe...

[Kandrak]

Originally posted by Maddoc-the-Wayfarer
I think tradeskillers, veteran and newcomer alike, will be greatly pleased with the new tradeskill interface. Look for more information in the near future

--Maddoc

Quick! Someone throw a snare and a root on the man so we can tor..er...PERSUADE him to give us hints on Lewena's quest.

[KyrosKrane]

Thankee for the tips, Maddoo. =)

But don't you DARE give away Brodder's Revenge! I'm having too much fun with it.

Now, about that NPC who's supposed to give us a clue ...

[Maevenniia]

/em casts snare at Maddoc
*fizzle*
*fizzle*
*fizzle*

doh!


Thanks fo rdropping by Maddoc!

[Myrron]

Thanks for coming by Maddoc!

Back to the topic, I still have some concerns. Let's look at the seven basic tradeskills:

Jewelcraft can be 250ed with all storebought items.
Brewing can reach 248 on all storebought items.
Fletching can reach 202 with all storebought items.
Baking can reach 191 with all storebought items (and one frying pan).
Smithing can go to 212 will all bought items and one temper (which is not readily available).
Tailoring can reach 180's with all bought items and one dye (but expensive).
Pottery is the trade I'm not too familiar with, but I know I've gotten to my current skill without too much pain.

Most servers have a ton of 250 JCers just because it's so easy and takes so few clicks. We should expect to see a lot more 248+ brewers now if this interface allows skillups, because MHB with its 9 ingredients may be trivialized to one click instead of moving around 9 items. Similarly, anyone with 1000pp and an hour on their hands will reach 200 fletching in no time.

Part of the challenge of reaching 250 in a trade was being able to endure the tedious nature of tradeskills. I regularly visit several other message boards (as I'm sure many of you do) and already I see people saying "This is great! I quit trades because of all the clicking, I'm going to be a GM now!" I'm not worried about competition at all selling high-end items (I already have decent gear and don't even use the tailoring skill I have for pp), but I can certainly see how reaching 250 in most trades really won't mean anything now. A good buddy of mine recently hit 250 brewing after suffering though MHB and was so happy, now with these proposed changes I could do the same thing after 100pp and a free hour or two.

I really do worry about people who make sub-combines for profit. Celestial essences and kiolas will die. More people will be making them to sell (so prices will drop), and less people will buy them (some who would buy them will make them instead). CVTs may not do to bad, those have multiple sub-combines so they may endure. Anything imbued and enchanted may remain relatively normal. Things like blessed dust of tunare and sacred swatches may actually improve with people wanting to click their way to 250 tailoring. So a level 15 new person trying to make some money selling celestial essences will probably no longer be able to do so, at least not at the current profit, while the level 50+ enchanter or cleric can probably make more things that will sell better now. (I'm not trying to say the 50+ people making stuff is wrong at all; I'm just concerned about the level 15 type of person.)

IF the recipe interface does not allow someone to skill up, and only works on recipes trivial to you, then I think I'd be all for it. The level 15 type person could make a living selling multiple-sub-combine items like CVTs, blessed dusts, etc, which would naturally be easier with the help of the new interface. Giving people recipes AND allowing people to skill up just by clicking something once makes it just too easy in my opinion. We will have people who reach near-200 in almost all trades overnight, and near 250 in JC and brewing if the interface allows skillups. I think making only trivial combines allowable in the interface is a fair compromise, or at the very most something 5 points above trivial.

--Myrron

[eniamn]

Jewelcraft can be 250ed with all storebought items.
Brewing can reach 248 on all storebought items.
Fletching can reach 202 with all storebought items.
Baking can reach 191 with all storebought items (and one frying pan).
Smithing can go to 212 will all bought items and one temper (which is not readily available).
Tailoring can reach 180's with all bought items and one dye (but expensive).
Pottery is the trade I'm not too familiar with, but I know I've gotten to my current skill without too much pain.

jc has always been easy.
will prolly have more brewers since this will be the cheap torphy and bag tradeskill.
bows will take you to 250 fletching.
baking goes to 250 on mtps with a very few extra items and normally available in bazaar in quantity.
smithing requires that tempers and subcombines so not one click anyway.
the dye for tailoring is the bottle neck anyway. 2 and 3 item combines are rediculously easy compared to others anyway.
pottery get zombie skins and then can buy up to advanced vials before switching to casserole dishes which are all bought to 199.

dont see this as much of a problem. the only for trivial items and no chance at skillups when doing this ideas seem very snobbish to me. i have gmed baking on picnics. over 1600 picnics. the subcombines will still take clicks. doubt anything other than brewing gets more common. that's partly why i chose to bake instead of brew in the first place.

most people wont care to fletch. 4 item combines arent too bad. if the interface uses a drop down menu will take a couple clicks anyway.

subcombines sell to peopel with more money than time or aid grimmel skillers. (so should have just been everything trivial at 200 on that.) doubt the marke will be hurt too much.

[andyhre]

With a great deal of humility in responding to such one of the original tradeskill gurus, I humbly disagree with a few things that Myrron said.

Part of the challenge of reaching 250 in a trade was being able to endure the tedious nature of tradeskills.

While this may be de facto true, I seriously think it was a bug, not a feature. I really do not think people sat down in 1998 or 1999 and said: we'll restrict brewing vis-a-vis JC by making the major skill-up route a nine item combine, and the wrist pain will serve as a barrier to entry to the oh-so-lucrative GM brewing market.

... but I can certainly see how reaching 250 in most trades really won't mean anything now.

Here is an awkward sentence: To me, it means what it means to me. 250 is important to me b/c I want it, not because someone else thinks I have stronger wrists than them. It was much harder for me to do LoY ribbons from 158->187 than to do Wu's from 131->158, not because of the wrist pain of ribbons vs. heady kiola (quite the contrary) but instead the hit that my bank account took. My 187 represents hard work in many ways, clicking the heady kiolas and saving up tens of thousands to make the ribbons. No one is going to suddenly make me feel less accomplished simply b/c someone new can make heady kiolas more quickly.

I really do worry about people who make sub-combines for profit. Celestial essences and kiolas will die. More people will be making them to sell (so prices will drop), and less people will buy them (some who would buy them will make them instead).

Again, I think the existence of these markets, while a tribute to the beauty of a market economy (where some people value time more than plat and other plat more than time, a market in trading time for platinum will develop, and has), are a reaction to a bug -- CEs and Kiolas are not good-fgor-you-hard but silly-hard. Many people say, bah, too silly-hard for me, let me give someone 4pp for a 5g combine. Those people who earn their keep doing this are, sort of, not really but yeah kinda "exploiting" a flaw in the game. Not illegally, but in essence, they are making a heady move (puns acknowledged), to take advantage of a game design problem to make money from those unwilling to endure what they will endure.

I say this with at least 300,000pp in Leather Padding sales to my name, so I too am an "exploiter" in this sense. I think my market may get a little less lucrative, but on the other hand, *I* know how to work the input markets and now I can do it soooo much faster.


Oh and by the way:

Fletching can reach 202 with all storebought items.

(actually you can go all the wat to 250 if you have the cash, 202->215 on darkwood, 215->235 on darkwood compound, 235->250 on shadewood.)

Pottery is the trade I'm not too familiar with, but I know I've gotten to my current skill without too much pain.

I think you can do 199, using casserole dishes




ATTENTION MADDOC: While I am here, could UNFIRED casserole dishes be made to stack, like their fired brethren now do?

Thanks!
Andy

[Silverfish]

If I'm Repeating...

If I'm repeating someone else, I apologize, but I don't see any reason why this "choose from menu" idea will reduce reliance on subcombines. Sure, it'll be faster to build a celestial essence or Coldain velium temper, but it still won't be fast, and certainly not anywhere near "instant" as some have said. To make the essence, you still need to open the mortar and click the entry, which is only a bit faster than putting the components in and clicking combine. To make the temper, you need to click open the mortar, click for four CEs, then open the brew barrel, and click once for the Coldain heater, and again for the temper. Still six combines, in about half the time, but it isn't a "get the ingredients and push a button" by a LONG shot. Think about fast-clicking a Misty Thicket Picnic, remembering to consider all of the subcombines, and you'll see that it's a time saver, but not the macro heaven that everyone fears. There will still be a market for velium tempers, for those who don't want to go fetch brown algae, and for CE for those who don't want to bother with making their own. The margin will be tighter, but then the brewer will be able to make more to sell quickly, so it balances. Bots will work no better nor worse than before, and skillups will take less effort but still won't be (ahem) trivial.

And hey, you'll never forget and leave your non-stick frying pan in the oven again!

Silverfish

[Cerrena]

I'm curious to see how they handle dough. Given that there is more then one recipy for it. I'd hate to loose a really valuable egg just because I forgot it was in my inventory.

[Aavar]

maybe you have to click on the recipe you are usiing. In case of dough which has multiple recipes

[Myrron]

It's quite all right to disagree with me, I tried to give the impression that those were my concerns, not necessarily that everyone shared my thoughts.

I have sold my fair share of leather padding too, actually. I never sold CEs or kiolas, though. I didn't consider it any kind of exploit or bug; instead I saw this as paying someone for their time and skill. I made a small fortune when I was level 16 selling padding before the smithing trivials were lowered; that's how I afforded gear that lasted me the next 20-30 levels. My concern was for other players who are now in the situation I was in when I was 16. Instead of paying others for their time, people will now be more likely to do it themselves, and this would mean less income for new people starting out, that's all. I may be wrong, and I freely admit that. I personally think that multiple sub-combine items will be more plentiful in the bazaar with this interface. Look at CVTs...4 CEs and a heater; that's just annoying even with a few less clicks. Nonetheless, that's still less clicks using this interface for an item very high in demand, and so more people may be likely to try it to sell in the bazaar. And it will very likely sell. People who used to sell kiolas and such may adjust and now sell these and similar items if they weren't before, and those who were doing it before will have an easier time making it.

I very well may be wrong on all or most of my concerns. I have been doing solstice robes almost exclusively for my tailoring since 175, and have never bought a celestial essence in my life. I've made easily tens of thousands of those, and believe me the idea of making those easier has me REAL excited. So please don't think I hate the idea of this interface; I just was thinking of people who may lose income, and was reflecting on how much easier some of the seven basic trades may (not will) become.

Oh, and for reference, I posted that list of primarily-storebought-items just for perspective. I don't necessarily think that all seven trades will become "easier". Brewing, without a doubt, will see an increase in 250's assuming you can skill up on MHB. I think tailoring will remain more or less unchanged, because of the expense and rarity of the ribbons and dyes, and lack of access to post-190 ingredients. Smithing will likely remain stable due to rarity of tempers and post-212 rarity of supplies. Jewelcraft is easy enough now, this won't change anything there. I don't know how fletching, baking, and pottery will end up; we may see some increase in 200+ people in those areas, but we may not. So really, brewing is the only trade I have some concern for, but on the other hand, is an increase in 250 brewers a bad thing? Probably not, except maybe for current 250 brewers who are worried about their sales.

So as I said, feel free to disagree with me. I've been giving this some off-and-on thought and have already changed my mind once (At first, I thought macroers would exploit this interface bigtime; now I have decided that it would just take a little less programming time on their end and not really a big help at all. So I'm no longer worried about that issue at all.) Discussion about this sort of stuff is helpful, hence I posted my concerns.

And original tradeskill guru? C'mon, I wrote two guides. Save your praise for all the people who found the recipes long before I even played EQ...they did the work; I just compiled the data.

--Myrron

[Lyinar]

I do have to admit I'm a bit confused. I don't see anything in that message that says for absolute sure that failure isn't possible. It looks to me that failure will still be possible, that you still will sometimes have 50million (yes, an exaggeration, but man it feels like it) combines before you get a skillup, etc. The only difference I'm really seeing is that I won't have to sit and hold down ctrl while I move eight or nine things into a container and click Combine.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing where every combine is instantly going to be a success, and a skillup, like I've seen mentioned.

[Maddoc-the-Wayfarer]

ATTENTION MADDOC: While I am here, could UNFIRED casserole dishes be made to stack, like their fired brethren now do?

That doesn't seem unreasonable, I'll take a look when I get back from the holidays and see if there was a reason they weren't made stackable with the other changes.

-- Maddoc