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[Troy]

I must be in the minority but I hope it DOES show us recipes that may not have been found. I have an Orange Damond of War, I have a ton of Diaku Blood and I know there must be a recipe that uses them or it would mean that those in charge *cough Maddoc cough* have been slacking at their jobs.

For all that is holy let me know what recipes use them! Or at least admit that they are mistakes on your part and that you will remove the tradeskill tag from them.

[KyrosKrane]

The Aide Grimel quests had both positive and negative impacts on the tradeskill community. But before we can discuss those, we have to define what is meant by "tradeskill community" in the first place.

My personal definition of that community is folks who see that tradeskills are a significant part of their character's career. Note that I didn't say a significant part of the game, but rather a career. If one of your major aims in the game is to make stuff through tradeskills, whether for yourself, for friends and guildies, or for resale, then you are part of the tradeskill community. If you just need to get that skill up so you can do your shawl quests or AG and you'll never really bother with tradeskills again, you're not part of the community ... you're a visitor, if you will.

This carries some serious implications. To the visitors, tradeskills are another timesink, comparable to Luclin key/shard farming or PoP flagging. It's an artificial barrier to their advancement, meant to force them to play (and stay a subscriber) for longer. A visitor may not necessarily see that there is a market for tradeskills (both subcomponents and finished items), and they may not realize (or even care) that their actions can disturb or even destroy those markets.

Rich visitors are the folks who can afford to buy leather padding at 50-60pp each, or small pieces of velium for 100pp each, by the stack, and then later sell their Mistletoe sickles for 500pp each, just to clear their inventory. Doing this repeatedly or by multiple people at once will both crash the sickle market and drive all other smiths to farm their own components then vendor any results; bazaar rates make it impractical to skill up at those prices for the cost-concious tradeskiller, and the resale market is untenable when others are selling below cost (witness the Solstice robe market on Veeshan; robes now sell for 100-200pp each in the bazaar, and you can frequently find robes on vendors).

You could argue that these rich visitors pump cash to the tradeskillers, and you'd be partially right. They pump cash to the farmers, not to the tradeskillers. This gives tradeskillers a choice: when you farm components, do you use them for your own skillups (with dubious returns), or do you resell them for fast cash? I imagine many tradeskillers would see this as the devil's choice.

This brings us back to Aide Grimel. I've heard two perspectives on this quest. 1) It is a reward for tradeskillers with sufficient skill. 2) It's an incentive for uber players with near-Time access to take up tradeskills. Neither perspective is entirely right or wrong, and both carry a number of implications.

Compare AG to the Shawl quests. Both were (are) truly uber items for their era. Even today, the consensus is that you can't get gear on a par with Shawl 8 until VT or high Elementals, if not Time. That speaks very well for an item from the Velious era. However, to get Shawl 8, you could solo (or at worst, single-group) the vast majority of the quests, and the hardest part (probably the walk for Shawl 8, or perhaps obtaining the Royal Kromrif Blood) requires perhaps 2-3 groups -- a bar almost anyone can meet. This can be seen as a clear reward for everyone. Tradeskillers get a few fun events that nets them a nice reward, and visitors only have to spend minor amounts of "downtime" skilling up for the shawl.

Assuming that AG is a reward for tradeskillers, you have to ask why flagging was even put in. The vast, vast majority of tradeskillers will never even see a Bertox kill, let alone the rest of the flags required for AG. From this perspective, AG loses much of its appeal; tradeskillers already have one devotion/dedication/timesink in the form of tradeskills. They neither need nor want to go out of their way to gear up for flagging runs.

If instead AG was a bonus for players who are already flagged, then they would perceive skilling up to be as tedious as Luclin key/shard camps -- and if you've ever done those, you know how insanely boring they can be. From the tradeskiller's perspective, AG now becomes a catastrophe as hordes of people who would otherwise have had to hire a craftsman to do their combines can now do those combines themselves. From this perspective, tradeskillers got the shaft three times. They're denied a tradeskill item due to flags; their markets are trashed by rich people who just want to skill up as fast as possible; and they lose a significant source of revenue as craftsmen for hire.

Ultimately, though, the debate comes down to practical realities. Those realities are that for most people, gearing up and raiding for flags is not a realistic option. Tradeskills, however, are an option for everyone with time and cash to spare. Not everyone can commit to four hours a day, every day, to join a raiding guild and get flagged. Anyone can spare a half-hour now and then to bang out a few combines for skillups. From this perspective, the "visitors" win, and tradeskillers lose out. What could have been the ultimate reward for tradeskillers -- any tradeskiller, not just the uber-flagged ones -- instead becomes an unreachable goal, taunting them from afar.

[Carmaris]

While I think you make a good argument, Kyros, I do think you're slightly off the mark with one statement.

From the tradeskiller's perspective, AG now becomes a catastrophe as hordes of people who would otherwise have had to hire a craftsman to do their combines can now do those combines themselves.

By your own admission, the majority of the individuals doing the AG quest are "visitors"--they do this only for the ubah loots and have no intention of touch tradeskills afterwards. When you get down to farming, subcombines, potential failures, etc, it's very likely that the "visitors" are going to continue to purchase from the true tradeskillers--if nothing else so they have more time to raid, grind AA, seek phat lewtz and easy riches.

For instance, I'm currently working on getting my tradeskills up to AG level. But I can tell you honestly, I really don't see myself ever making my own MTPs or baking 10lb Meat Pies for friends or anything else along those lines--and no, I'm not a visitor, the vast majority of my funds come from my 250 brewing.

[KyrosKrane]

That's true, Camaris, but consider the case of the raider who's decided that a piece of Stonehide leather would be a great upgrade for him.

Maybe he doesn't have the seniority or DKP to get his Ornate or Elemental armor; maybe he considers the time and plat costs and decides Stonehide is a better option. For whatever reason, he's chosen to go with Stonehide. If your economy is something like mine (on Veeshan), it is very rare indeed to find elemental armors on sale. Buying a finished product in the bazaar is therefore not an option.

Farming isn't really an issue; it appears you can get all the bits for Stonehide armors in experience groups. (Not being elemental-capable myself, I have no first-hand experience, but that's the impressions I got from talking to folks who do farm them.) So, he goes off with his group, gets a few AA, and gathers enough components for a couple of tries. Note that he's not doing anything exceptional; he has to grind the AA anyway, so he may as well farm for drops at the same time. Once he gathers his items, the situation gets interesting.

Let's assume for a moment that AG doesn't exist. In all likelihood, our raider won't have both his smithing and tailoring high enough to do the combine himself. He'd have to find at least one and maybe two craftsmen to do the combines for him, paying them a healthy sum in the bargain. Again, without Aid Grimel, he may not have guildies with the requisite skills for this combine.

However, since AG does exist, he'll almost certainly have the smithing skill to make the studs (AG requires 220+ smithing). He could very well have the tailoring skill himself (AG requires 220+, and it's not too hard to get from 220 to 240, which provides max skill with a geerlok). If not, he'll almost certainly have a guildmate who does have the skill and will do the combine for free.

A similar example appears if our raider wants to outfit a twink warrior in Heraldic or Full Mithril or some other BD cultural armor. If the needed items are mass produced in the bazaar, it's faster and easier to buy them, sure. If they're not (as far as I can tell, only Heraldic is mass produced on Veeshan), our raider would have to find and pay a smith for them if AG didn't exist. Since AG does, he's more likely to do it himself or find a guildie who'll do it for free or at most for cost.

I agree that many "gruntwork" combines like MTP's or GLM 's will never be taken up in mass by visitors; if they do, they'll become tradeskillers by definition. However, the few combine opportunities that can be really lucrative for a struggling tradeskiller are now reduced thanks to AG.

[Vuron808]

Originally posted by KyrosKrane
However, the few combine opportunities that can be really lucrative for a struggling tradeskiller are now reduced thanks to AG.

The game makes no distinction between why someone clicks combine... why do you? It would seem this is a convenient way to split people into groups so you can look down your nose at the folks who don't tradeskill for the exact same reasons as you do.

As for all the stuff about the 'market', 'rich visitors' and AG ruining things I can only say that this is a game with a goofy economy. There is no item decay and tradeskill ingredients comprise the largest grouping of 'consumables'. There are very few money-sinks. There is nothing in the game that guarantees the scarcity of someone skilled enough to make a given combine. If I were to look at this from the outside and make assumptions then I wouldn't guess tradeskilling to be profitable let alone lucrative.

[KyrosKrane]

I had more written, but it turned into a rant. You can read it in a separate post in the Primal Scream Room here. In fact, maybe it's better if we move the rest of this particular derailment there anyway.

[Arieshoney]

I am willing to wait and see what Sony has in mind since we seem to have little information on this issue.....mostly just thoughts of how it might happen.....but would like to say this.....

Those of us that truly find enjoyment in the torcher <giggle> of tradeskills are around now....and will be around after. Even if this causes an influx of people that think this will be easy...yes maybe easier but they think easy.....I do believe those individuals will fade away after a given amount of time.

I didn't choose to GM Baking first with thoughts of making grands amount of pp (still not happening anyway hehe ).....it was because I was having fun making stat food for myself and friends.....for the longest time I didn't even have a trader and just gave stuff away. Making patty melts in Thurg I would find Monks and offer it to them for free, figuried low wt food for them.....so wasn't even reselling to vendors. Baking and Brewing might be the cheaper of the tradeskills to GM but I ran into slow skill ups doing MTP days and days and days....giving stacks and stacks away to friends and still had 700 in the bazaar (all finally sold or given away). So just from my perspective I believe those that enjoy this will survive whatever is implemented good or bad because we love it. My accomplishment of GMing Baking and then looking at ooo I want to GM this next ect (need AA points <giggle>) has only spurred more interest in this portion of the game for me personally.

Maybe this will draw more people to the tradeskill community but I believe only those really dedicated to this will stick with it because regardless of fewer clicks it does take time away from exp grps ect....and for some that part of the game will always be more important and this part less interesting.

Anyway I appreciate Moddoc dropping in and giving feedback.....would love to know more but respect his position that probably keeps him from revealing too much to us.

HUGGS
Melissa

[andyhre]

Originally posted by Troy
...I have an Orange Diamond of War,...

Isn't that used in a Bloodmetal Earring of Engagement?

[eniamn]

he means the diaku blood has a tradeskill tag with no known use. he thinks it would have been used for mobs from the plane of war but that plane was scrrapped and/or fused with plane of tactics. diaku was prolly the plane of war stuff but nobody knows if the rest of the stuff for the non-existant plane of war made it through. diaku blood might be used in a recipe with rallos' toe nail but since no toe nail made it into game the recipes are broken.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by andyhre
Isn't that used in a Bloodmetal Earring of Engagement?

And the ceramic sword of war.

[Arghargh]

There is much more to making a profit at tradeskills than just having 250 skill in it. (tracking supply & demand, market pricing, tracking the competition, keeping a trader actually stocked with stuff that sells, farming items, seeing what sells, foraging mule, trader mule, etc.).

Prices will probably drop, sure. I don’t worry about return on investment (pp to pp ratio), but return on time (pp/time taken). If prices drop, and the time it takes to make stuff drops faster, I’ll be ahead of the game. Something to consider is if tradeskills items are sold cheaper, can be made faster, and sell faster than before, then you just might make more pp, not less.

MTP, and mistletoe cutting sickles both require a bunch of components, multiple zones to get items, and multiple trade skill containers. Even with one click combines, you’ll still have to gather all the components, find an open trade container (fixed, or collapsible), and spend time combining stuff for each sub-combine recipe. How much of your time is spent gathering components, running around various zones, plus selling your wares versus time making the actual combines? For complex recipes, like cultural armor, I spent vastly more time gathering components (blue diamonds, blocks of acrylia, various velium parts, temper components, etc.) than doing the combines. Combines are the most tedious part of tradeskills, and I’m glad to see them simplified.

If doing the Aid Grimmel quest and an easier skill up method makes more people GM skills (or at least 220 as this quest requires), then it will raise prices on supplies. Ok, fine. If this makes components too expensive, then farm components and sell those instead. I’ve been moving foraged mushrooms at 30pp each.

Is there any word on delays on the combines? If the combine delays are significant, then it might be faster to do the combines manually (excluding MHB. They’ll never be fast by hand).

Arghargh Grumble, Darkblood
65 Ogre Shaman of Rallos Zek

200 Alchemy
200 Baking
250 Blacksmithing
250 Brewing
200 Fishing
200 Fletching
200 Jewelry
200 Pottery
170 Tailoring

[Kieroth_whiteleaf]

If Maddoc is still lurking around this thread, would you be able to answer whether this intended UI mod will happen sooner or later? and is it tied to the expansion or is it a 'freebie"?

Thanks

SFG

[Tudamorf]

Originally posted by Arghargh
There is much more to making a profit at tradeskills than just having 250 skill in it.

But for smithing and tailoring, that's a large part of it. Compare the number of GM jewelry makers on any server with the number of GM tailors or smiths.

Originally posted by Arghargh
If prices drop, and the time it takes to make stuff drops faster, I’ll be ahead of the game.

Not necessarily. Those who were too lazy to do the complicated combines before might end up ahead of the game because they will now be able to compete given their laziness. Those who were willing to do tedious, complicated combines before will probably be worse off, because their willingness to do it gave them the competitive edge, and they will have lost it.

Originally posted by Arghargh
If doing the Aid Grimmel quest and an easier skill up method makes more people GM skills (or at least 220 as this quest requires), then it will raise prices on supplies. Ok, fine. If this makes components too expensive, then farm components and sell those instead. I’ve been moving foraged mushrooms at 30pp each.

That's great, if you want to be a farmer. I already know how to make tons of money farming; what I want is to be a trade skill merchant.

[Koru]

Ok, I'm willing to pitch in with my take on it.
Solstice earring = good for tradesmen
Aid Gimel = bad for tradesmen

When I use the word tradesmen I mean someone who does trades because they want to. Not for just as a means to one loot object but because they want to sell the products their trade produces and/or enjoy doing trades.

Why?
Solstice earring is a no drop quest done with tradable items that are crafted by high skill tradeskillers. This means that there's a consumable (meaning the items sold will not be resold at a later date) market for the tradesman to sell. Those who don't want to do the trade don't have to, they can pay the tradesman to make the item, or buy it fully done. Those who do want to do trades can do them for something of a profit.

Aid Gimel is a no drop quest requiring the person who wants the item to master every tradeskill. This means they will need to bring up their skill. The tradesman is cut out of the action unless he wants to sell as a component supplier, not a tradesman. Which, while valid, removes the trades aspect from him. The quest requires high level and people who do it are likely to be quite powerful. They are much more likely to have access to higher amounts of platinum than other lower level players. They can pay more for raw materials to raise their skills and can afford to sell the finished products at something of a loss. This translates to a harder time to enter the market for other novice tradesmen who don't have as deep pockets. Not only do the components they need sell for more but the finished products do not sell for as much. Also since there's more people who can do those tough combines it removes some trade from there and at least partially makes it less likely for components to be sold.

This kind of quest makes the tradeskill a perquisite to loot. There is no bypassing it, there's no marketing of skills. What do you sell to someone doing Aid Gimel? You can sell as a supplier of raw goods. The tradeskills needed for what you can sell them are minimal. I should know, I've done enough of it on a char that has no skill over 150. The point to the quest is not your skill, it's their skill. In fact the less you skill up the more you can profit selling the supplies to them. That doesn't encourage tradeskills, it merely necessitates that everyone wanting a reward master them. Similar, but not at all the same thing.

[Troy]

Bah, I meant Emblem of War. Sorry