New Upcoming Updates @ eqlive

[Myrron]

Originally posted by Lyinar
I do have to admit I'm a bit confused. I don't see anything in that message that says for absolute sure that failure isn't possible. It looks to me that failure will still be possible, that you still will sometimes have 50million (yes, an exaggeration, but man it feels like it) combines before you get a skillup, etc. The only difference I'm really seeing is that I won't have to sit and hold down ctrl while I move eight or nine things into a container and click Combine.

That's my interpretation too, I don't think you're missing anything. We also don't know how far above our current skill we can even use the recipe book...if someone's current skill is 50 can they use the interface to make an item with a trivial of 60? 75? 150?

--Myrron

[Vuron808]

Originally posted by Myrron
Part of the challenge of reaching 250 in a trade was being able to endure the tedious nature of tradeskills. I regularly visit several other message boards (as I'm sure many of you do) and already I see people saying "This is great! I quit trades because of all the clicking, I'm going to be a GM now!" I'm not worried about competition at all selling high-end items (I already have decent gear and don't even use the tailoring skill I have for pp), but I can certainly see how reaching 250 in most trades really won't mean anything now.

I don't consider this to be valid. The basic premise here is that what you've accomplished has more value to you because fewer people have done it. I don't understand that thinking at all.. it seems elitist to me. This same line of thinking could be used to justify all manner of stupidity.

IMO elitism is rampant here. I think tradeskillers like to fantasize about being an actual smithy, tailor, etc. Not just being a smithy but being 'the best' smithy. Not just being 'the best' smithy but being 'the best' at all the tradeskills. Not just being 'the best' at all the tradeskills but being 'the first' to get there. Not just being 'the best' and 'the first' at all the tradeskills but getting there using the 'uphill-both-ways-through-the-snow' method.

Personally I don't have much use for this fantasy. It's delusional thinking from my perspective and an attempt to add competitive value to your tradeskilling achievements where none actually exists.

On the store-bought ingredients issue let me just say that IMO SOE has pandered to those that can forage, track, and solo/farm efficiently. I think the system would be MUCH better if these elements were downplayed instead of rewarded. Foraging is the biggest macro scam and I would love to see it be returned to merely a way to get free non-stat food and junk.

[Vuron808]

double post

[Teaamillie]

Will be nice to not have to worry about getting carpal tunnel from tradeskills anymore.

Amen! I slather up the Ben Gay each day whether or not I TS.

[Auricula]

I don't consider this to be valid. The basic premise here is that what you've accomplished has more value to you because fewer people have done it. I don't understand that thinking at all.. it seems elitist to me. This same line of thinking could be used to justify all manner of stupidity.

Do you apply the same argument to Elemental-flagged guilds? Relatively few have done it, so it does it diminish the time, effort and dedication it took to get there? I'd bet my Grandmasters trophies that those folks feel their achievement has value

Reaching 250 in a tradeskill is quite an accomplishment, and GMing them all is the result of setting a goal and dedicating hundreds of hours working toward it. It may not be YOUR goal, but doing something that few others have done (ie, 1750 club) hardly can be considered as 'stupidity'.

Elitist? Maybe .. shrug. But only in the same sense as having your Epic, or being in PoTime.

[Vuron808]

Originally posted by Auricula
Do you apply the same argument to Elemental-flagged guilds? Relatively few have done it, so it does it diminish the time, effort and dedication it took to get there? I'd bet my Grandmasters trophies that those folks feel their achievement has value

I don't really even understand the first sentence I've quoted above but I think I get what you are saying. The best I can answer is that this isn't a valid analogy.

First, there are many aspects of raiding that ARE competitive. It is possible for guilds to block other guilds and racing occurs daily. It ISN'T possible to directly influence the trade skill-ups someone else can achieve. Your tradeskills have absolutely zero effect on my chance of a successful combine or skill-up. Nothing in the game makes crafting competitive.

Second, I never once indicated that tradeskilling (or other achievements) do not have value. What I did was question that thinking of the post I quoted:

"but I can certainly see how reaching 250 in most trades really won't mean anything now."

I could flip this around and question that the value in crafting is related to the number of clicks?

At the end of the day I haven't seen the new system so I'm not going to take a stance on it. I have already posted my concerns in this thread. I do believe that there is an absurd amount of clicking required for crafting in this game and that having a design goal of reducing the clicks is a good thing. Beyond that, the 'uphill-both-ways-through-the-snow' arguement is stale. By extension you could use it to justify never advancing the tradeskill system at all.

[Androsulach]

I think the interface will have the recipe information, not that it'll show us, but it'll make the combine button light up if we have correct ingredients to make the item. Brodder's Revenge could well be in there, but until we figure out what ingredients go into it, we'll still be unable to make it. As many have pointed out, we have several ingredients to make things like noodles and clumps of dough. So long as we have correct ingredients, we should be able to make combines and get the correct yields based on those ingredients.

Oh, for the record, SWG had the idea before Horizon as far as the tradeskill interface. SWG's tradeskills are a bit more complex, in that you have varying degrees of quality on ingredients and those effect your templates, which in turn effect the quality of the finished product. Needless to say, I think we'll have more uniform results.

[Bartox]

maybe the recipe "list" will just show the name and no other information. assuming you have all the right ingredients when you hit the combine button, will you know whether or not you have it right. (just as you would now)

maybe the recipe "list" will only show a certain range above your current skill so there is not 0 to 248 making JUST mino hero brews from the get go. you will have to make other products working your skilll up (just as you would now)

this wont "kill" the tradeskill market... its been dead awhile already.



however, i will love this change if it saves myself the pain of making hundreds of CEs, CVTs, BDoT, and all the other annoying subcombines I had to endur on my way to 1750.

[OberonMiM]

so basically they are copying UO's tradeskill interface of what 6 or 7 years ago?

shrug

[andyhre]

Originally posted by Maddoc-the-Wayfarer
That doesn't seem unreasonable, I'll take a look when I get back from the holidays and see if there was a reason they weren't made stackable with the other changes.

-- Maddoc

Oh thank you! Except, bonehead that I am, I asked for the wrong item!!!

The item I really think needs to be stackable is unfired Ceramic Linings, not unfired casserole dishes. People don't need multiple unfired casserole dishes, but they do need multiple ceramic linings. As it stands now people tend to make many ceramic linings, then use them to make other things.

And I say all this just having gotten past that stage myself (yay for me (I just dinged 199 this morning on casserole dishes, then and then 200 on an unfired planar stein), it was still a pain.

In order to make 60 ceramic linings, which, when finished only take up 3 slots, you need 60 slots. I spent 2 hours manipulating my inventory to get the free space needed and still could only do 50 at a time, then I shuttle to the kiln and fire those to make them stack, etc. It took me much longer than if I could have done 200 at the wheel (10 slots) and then fired all 200 in one session.

So if you are looking at stackability, the key item is unfired ceramic linings, not unfired casserole dishes.

Thanks,

Andy

[Kieroth_whiteleaf]

I think people need to relax.

Leather padding isn't valuable (sellable) because someone is too lazy to combine an LQ pelt with a thread.

It's valuable because hunting greens for LQ pelts and silks is tedious and boring. Once I get the pelts it's pretty breezy.

MHB's are a pain in the butt to make. IMHO, unreasonably so.

But so are heady kiolas. I've NEVER bought one at the bazaar, but sitting down and making several dozen so I can work on a string of wu's is frustrating. I've LONG since trivialed Kiolas, and being storebought there's no good incentive for me NOT to make them myself (that and temper is why I took up brewing in the first place, MHBs are just for when I get bored and feel like working up a skill). If I could buy the stupid things for a reasonable price off a vendor I would - but with leather padding selling for 20pp+ and the scary amount of HKs I need at a time it's just not worth the lag to find out. Making them myself is faster than earning up the plat anyways.

If I can make my kiolas go faster (And with brewing in the 150s I think I've 'earned' my way up) so I can work on the wu's that I can actually skill up on, I think the system is good.

And regardless, *NO ONE* that's posted has seen the new system. I wish that Maddoc had given us a little more information for the sake of addressing some of the concerns, but lacking that we frankly don't know anything about the system other than that it'll speed some things up and won't speed up other stuff.

I don't want to see a system that allows everyone to just breeze through 1750. But I don't foresee this as the apocalypse.

CTRL+Click made the game WAY easier. Now people are like "god, how did we live without that?". Pelts are stackable (Have been as long as I've been playing, but I heard they used to not be) - is that really that horrible??

Sony isn't exactly known for quality testing ahead of time. They've done a few stupid things. But lets face it - despite the fact that Aid Grimel has flooded the tradeskill market, people in *THIS* community have always been in the "why don't tradeskillers get more benefits??" camp - apparently the tradeskill community got a benefit that was *SO HUGE* everyone wanted in. So we complain about it instead of saying "thanks for the groovy earring".

The AA changes brought people into a panic - OMG, now *EVERYONE* can GM brewing... that's going to DEVASTATE the system! Now we celebrate people who hit 1750.

Sony's *intent* is to make sure people have fun. I'm a game developer, I know how this works.

If people *are* having fun they keep paying their $15/month, buy up the expansions, excess merchandise, etc.

It is *NOT* in Sony's best interest to "ruin" the game.

Granted, they may overlook things (likely on accident), make mistakes, show signs of being human, etc., but they aren't trying to make your life suck.

As someone said earlier - torches are cheap.

I'm going to add that because things tend to get cheaper in EQ economy over time, they're probably not gonna get more expensive later, so why not wait until *AFTER* we see the system and *AFTER* we know if it sucks or not to get pissed off.

Just a thought.

SFG

[Koru]

lol, when I looked at your post I thought "Oh, that's nice. But I hope they'd rather do something about the ceramic lining". It is rather annoying since it's used in so many other items. I know I've made more ceramic linings than any other pottery item other than poison vials.

[Pyraxis]

Originally posted by Kieroth_whiteleaf Sony isn't exactly known for quality testing ahead of time. They've done a few stupid things. But lets face it - despite the fact that Aid Grimel has flooded the tradeskill market, people in *THIS* community have always been in the "why don't tradeskillers get more benefits??" camp - apparently the tradeskill community got a benefit that was *SO HUGE* everyone wanted in. So we complain about it instead of saying "thanks for the groovy earring".

Is that supposed to be a joke? Aide Grimel did NOTHING for the tradeskilling community as a whole. Who it did benefit was the uber guilds in PoP who could now money buy their way to 220 in every skill so they could get the earring. I'm a tradeskiller, always have been. I haven't even done step one of this earring. Explain how the average tradeskiller gets a Bertox flag to even start it. This did nothing but make more GMs who didn't care about tradeskilling at all. I'm missing the "SO HUGE" benefit to the tradeskill community. How could anyone even think this was intended as such?

[Kieroth_whiteleaf]

The earring can only be gotten through tradeskilling.

And you have to be *GOOD* at tradeskilling (at least 1400 iirc).

And from what I understand, it's a good enough item to make other, non tradeskillers, dump hundreds of kpp to get to where we are anyways, JUST so they can get the earring.

I'd say that that was a bonus for tradeskillers. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so many people trying to learn tradeskills just for the purpose of getting THAT earring.

In implementation, yeah, it's done some damage. But it's not damage we didn't ask for. We *ASK* for tradeskill quests to get good items. The planar flagging is so we don't have a bunch of newbie twinks getting uber items - makes sense to me.

I don't see many people complaining about the other PoP recipes *OTHER THAN* the fact that some of the components are too *RARE*, but little enough about the difficulty.

I don't know what it's like on other servers. But I know mine has open flagging raids semi-constantly, at least for the lower tiers. You're not going to get into time that way, but from what I've read I could get the ones required for Grimel easy enough.

There's two ways tradeskills can go -

1. Functionally useless, designed just for people who want the aggrivation of something tedious and annoying, just to get the "You have increased your skill" message. Only the die-hards would stay in.

2. Something worth doing. Designed so that people who stick it through will get something good out of it.

If there is a benefit to something, someone will try to do it in order to gain the benefit.

I regularly see tradeskillers complain about the HSM war and how a few people mess up the whole war trying to get something off the grimlings. I'd be willing to bet that some of those people are equally pissed off that we're running around manipulating the war so only the wolves and bears spawn so we can do our tradeskilling.

As long as tradeskills, raids, and loot continue to exist in the same game, there are always going to be people who try to get the best of all three. Try looking at it from a different perspective.

I happen to be a fairly avid tradeskiller. Not quite 200 in anything yet, but over 150 in everything but JC. All of my gear except my weapons, helm and bow are things I've made myself. The bow I collected all the components for and my friend made, because it trivs over 250. All of my free PP goes to tradeskills.

I also happen to be raid leader for a small guild.

I don't consider myself any less of a tradeskiller than anyone else here. I put my time in, I know the recipes, I farm my own drops, etc. I work just as hard as anyone else here.

But I'm also a raider. And in some cases I know where the raiders are coming from too. Maybe being on both sides of the coin makes it easier to see, but I think some of you are in the mindset that if you do anything OTHER than tradeskills you're not playing the game. Sometimes you have to be a little of both.

I have no problem with planar flags being required for some aspects of a quest. I also have no problem with the fact that Sony has put in a quest cool enough to inspire otherwise non-tradeskillers to take it up. That means the benefit is there in tradeskilling, and eventually if I keep doing what I'm doing I'll get to take advantage of it.

And again, I seriously doubt sony would deliberately screw up the game balance. They'd have *NOTHING* to gain from that. They also have *NOTHING* to gain from messing up the economy.

Furthermore, has Aid Grimel interfered with my personal tradeskilling? Not in the slightest.

When I make armor to sell, it sells.

My guild is reasonably well equipped for their level, a lot of their gear is stuff either I or our 200+ tailor have made.

I'm rapidly growing out of my gear, but I'm *VERY* close to having enough skill to get my upper end cultural and maybe filling some gaps with planar armor.

Actually, Aid Grimel has helped me, because some powerskiller just paid me 1k for 200 metal bits. Would I have sold them cheaper? Hell yes. But they offered, I accepted.

Some of you guys are selling armor for multiple kpp. And unless my server economy is REALLY thrashed, there's not a thing that costs more than 2kpp to make if you do most/all of your own farming or buy off vendors (ignore bazaar). You can't tell me tradeskills are that horrible when you can sell a bp for 20k that cost <5k to make. I know you probably spent a ton of plat to get to this point (god knows I have) but you're eventually making it back.

I used to be able to sell banded for more than high enough to pay for further skillups. In some cases I still can (although I'm not willing to pimp it in the bazaar, just takes too long).

In short - People need to relax.

And frankly - it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong. Either playing wrong, or spending way too much money on something that's not fun. If that's the case, stop playing, we'll all feel better about it.

SFG

[corlathist]

I'm hoping it is relatively easy

Did Aid Grimel once on one of my chars. 240+ motd all skills.
And I will tell you I ended up with severe wrist pain
Which after chiropractic care and no more mass clicking tradeskills has finally disappeared.

Is there really any justification to the massive clicking and self-inflicted pain for a game?

No. not to me.

If its nice enough, I'll do the quest on another char sitting at 180ish on all skills.