Under Review

[Koner]

I was reading the messages on the Developers Corner on the EQ main site. I came across an interesting on from two days ago.

Tradeskills. We're reviewing the current recipe line-up for any gaps in skill progression, and items that aren't appropriately rewarding for their difficulty.

Translation - Shadowscream armor really sux arse. We are therefore going to nerf the trivial on it and take away the only currently viable skill up option to get to grandmaster for blacksmiths who aren't mega rich and can't afford to purchase the components for mistletoe cutting sickles. We are truely sorry for this inconvenience but it was determined that a smith with a skill of less than 150 should be able to make this junk armor that absolutely noone wants to wear.

In all seriousness though, MAYBE this is good news for those of us who are are stuck in the 190-210 hell range.

[Sinuuyanea Nocturne]

Pessimistic, arent we? <img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/sinuuyanea/dcrazz.gif" alt="Glass is half empty!">

They could be doing things like making the wailing/shrieking substances droppable, or upping the stats on Shadowsnore...er, Shadowscream armor...

Or, they could be distracting us long enough to fire a stealth Nerf missile at Smithing <img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/sinuuyanea/dcyawn.gif" alt="Think I'll sleep on it...">

[Aethn]

No sane person would wear ShadowScreem

Ummm. How can they nerf smithing anymore then it already is? As it stands now smithing takes 200% longer to hit 250 skill then any other tradeskill in the game. And that is a LOW estimate.

Shadowscreem Armor is absolutly worthless as a player made armor. Frankly I have yet to see a single person actually WEARING that armor as a set, let alone individual pieces.

Lets compare items as relates to trivials in the area I smith from:

Trivial: 250+
Shadowscream Steel Tunic
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 18
STR: +3 STA: +3 SV MAGIC: +4
WT: 3.0 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR CLR PAL RNG SHD BRD ROG SHM
Race: ALL


Trivial: 250+
Artificer's Ringmail Tunic
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 30
STA: +5 WIS: +10 HP: +40 MANA: +40
Recommended level of 45.
WT: 3.0 Size: LARGE
Class: ROG SHM
Race: BAR
Deity: The Tribunal


Trivial:250+
Helanic Tundra Breastplate
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 51
STR: +10 STA: +10 HP: +80
Recommended level of 45.
WT: 3.0 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR BRD
Race: HUM BAR HEF
Deity: The Tribunal


For giggles lets toss in a couple NPC dropped items that sell for under 5000pp now:

Phase Spider Carapace
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 28
STR: +6 DEX: +5 STA: +9 CHA: +6
WIS: +6 INT: +7 AGI: +8 HP: +25
SV FIRE: -3 SV DISEASE: -4 SV COLD: +5 SV MAGIC: +9
SV POISON: +8
WT: 5.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR CLR PAL RNG SHD MNK BRD ROG SHM BST
Race: ALL


Polished Tin Mail Shirt
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 28
DEX: +8 STA: +7 WIS: +10 HP: +25
MANA: +25
Recommended level of 50.
WT: 5.0 Size: LARGE
Class: RNG ROG SHM
Race: ALL

Oh and for the "Then make Acrylia Plate" crowd, this is trivial at 242, requires even MORE farming hours then ShadowScreem per combine, and is marginally equal/better then basic cultural trivial pre-200 skill:

Acrylia Breastplate
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 30
STR: +5 HP: +15 SV MAGIC: +10
WT: 10.0 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: HUM BAR ERU ELF HIE DEF HEF VAH



What sane and rational person would even CONSIDER using ShadwoScreem over just about ANY armor set available at trivial 250+ (yeah, I know Murphy's Law. Someone out there will use it. But in reality they could NOT have made that decision under rationale conditions)

Oh and the RNG is broken, just felt I would add that to every post I make from now on.

edits: spelling

[Segal]

Shadow Scream

Hmm, I sell tons of ShadowScream. In fact, its probably one of my most prolific sellers. I sell it for 50 pp for bracers and up to 200 pp for the tunic. Not a huge profit margin but alot better than selling it to the NPC for 6 gold.

[kiztent]

Pessimistic, arent we? <img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/sinuuyanea/dcrazz.gif" alt="Glass is half empty!">

Given what happened the last time they fixed smithing I can't understand how anyone could possibly be pessimistic :roll:

[Zhorn]

Pessimistic, arent we? <img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/sinuuyanea/dcrazz.gif" alt="Glass is half empty!">

They could be doing things like making the wailing/shrieking substances droppable

Hmm... I'm thinking making those droppable might actually be a BAD idea.

Why? Well because then people would pharm the crap out of the Hollowshade island camp and try to sell the substances at an inflated price.

It's bad enough seeing spiderling silks sell for 5 plat each without genuine smiths going to Hollowshade and finding it permacamped by someone AEing it for pure profit.

[Koner]

sell them for 5p each? hmm thats only 100p a stack. An ae group might get 2 stack an hour so thats only 200p to split. Might better make that 20p each just to make it worth farming. LOL

I agree. Don't make the substances dropable. Get rid of the no rent on the shadows and seriously up the stats on the shadowscream. Thow us some bones for skill up paths to give us more than 2 options through the 175-220 range. Lowering the trivials on Shadowscream would be a HUGE HUGE mistake but making the stats worthy of the currently necessary skill requirement is definately in order.

There are actually a LOT of things the SOE could do with trivials to flatten out the skill up curve some. Especially now with PoP armors. I actually am somewhat excited about that little announcement. It gives me hope that MAYBE just maybe things will get better for the casual players who don't have a thousand hours to farm.

[Sethlic]

Just pray they do two things.

1.Fill out the cultural/agnostic gap in smithed armors

2.Make shadowscream more on par with old cultural, up the stats, and stop screwing with the trivials or maybe give us something else to smith at that sage.

I not holding my breathe that they might actually make it easier to get skillups. They already promised that one &lt;--coughs and obscene word.

[kiztent]

I agree. Don't make the substances dropable. Get rid of the no rent on the shadows and seriously up the stats on the shadowscream.

No, that would be bad. Tremendously bad. The problem is that if shadowscream was worth selling it would be even harder to farm the parts, since people would actually camp it for something besides skill ups.

I'd prefer the parts were made tradable and DROPPED in an EXP ZONE THAT PEOPLE HUNT IN. You cannot imagine the frustration I feel vendor mining when I pick up 45 Acrtic wyvern hides, 19 othmir fur, 2 cobalt drake hides (all from that quadders paradise), 21 superb rockhopper hides, 15 flawless, enough velium (from velks AA grinders) and acrylia to make the studs and bonings for all those and in the same time I have 4 windstones (who hunts on the dark side of the moon for exp?), 1 essence of wind, 1 essence of shadow and 0 elf blood. Even if shrieking and wailing substances were droppable, the war would still be broken, and everyone that could get exp in HSM would be hunting in PC and DSP, so you'd never find them on vendors anyway.

If EVERY owlbear had a chance to drop as well as EVERY sonic wolf and that stupid war was disabled, that would be a bigger improvement than making them no drop. Doing both and giving the zone an exp bonus on par with PC might make it worth hunting there for people that could get exp and would be a huge boon to smiths. Otherwise any change that will be made is pretty much worthless.

Thow us some bones for skill up paths to give us more than 2 options through the 175-220 range. Lowering the trivials on Shadowscream would be a HUGE HUGE mistake but making the stats worthy of the currently necessary skill requirement is definately in order.

I disagree with that still. Making shadowscream anything other than the steaming pile of feces it currently is would mean that smithing would have to be made even harder to compensate for the money making potential of shadowscream. NO NO NO NO NO. BAD. Smithing DOES NOT NEED TO BE HARDER.

It's simply impossible for Verant to add worthwhile items that do not require 250 skill and stupid rare drops to any tradeskill without totally devaluing the slot that item fits in. Take a look at the market for wis cloaks in the last year for a graphic example.

All smithing needs is a REASONABLE path to 250 (I define that as a recipe that is FULLY tradable and drops from mobs that are ALWAYS UP and DOES NOT require an enchanter or cleric/shaman/druid and preferably in COMMONLY HUNTED experience zones) and the ability to farm the items needed for the 250 skills combine at a reasonable rate (e.g. the items required for a combine drop at least/more often than the equivalent tradable no-need-to-combine-anything drop from the same zone).

There are actually a LOT of things the SOE could do with trivials to flatten out the skill up curve some. Especially now with PoP armors. I actually am somewhat excited about that little announcement. It gives me hope that MAYBE just maybe things will get better for the casual players who don't have a thousand hours to farm.

Won't happen. I'm so not optimistic about this it's not funny. Smithing was bad before, I figured fiddling around with it couldn't make it worse, but SoE found a way. I expect any changes to smithing to be for the worse.

[Oath Hipacraticus]

All I could hope for is to get rid of no rent on the shadows, I'd gladly pay 500ish(or more) pp a stack for these.

Though having a way to skill up WITHOUT losing major amounts of cash would be nice... but, then again JC ppl could say the same thing.

[Shaman Arriana]

Anyone who complains about the cost of GMing JC (especially an enchanter, who can actually MAKE money on vendor supplies by enchanting the bars) needs to be shot. Seriously.

When I GM jewelcraft for the Aid Grimel quest, it will cost me less money to go from 0 to 250 than it took me to go from 163 to 170 in alchemy. A lot less, actually.

[Kingbobb]

Oh, please don't jinx us all by saying that smithing is going to be nerfed. My main is a monk, just hit 235 smithing last night, and I"m still smarting over what they did to monks a few months ago. Smithing is just about the only thing I do now in EQ, and it would totally kill the game for me if they made all the hard work I've put into getting where I am (mostly guildless).

On the other hand, adding to SS would be a great idea. Put more clickable charges (like the obscure on the helm) into some pieces, and it'd sell. Maybe the Humming orb DS on the tunic, invis on the belt....

[kiztent]

Oh, please don't jinx us all by saying that smithing is going to be nerfed. My main is a monk, just hit 235 smithing last night, and I"m still smarting over what they did to monks a few months ago. Smithing is just about the only thing I do now in EQ, and it would totally kill the game for me if they made all the hard work I've put into getting where I am (mostly guildless).

On the other hand, adding to SS would be a great idea. Put more clickable charges (like the obscure on the helm) into some pieces, and it'd sell. Maybe the Humming orb DS on the tunic, invis on the belt....

How could it possibly be a great idea? Think it through. I know, I know, since I have to skill up on SS, might as well make it worth some money, right? Wrong. Look at what happens to any item that is easy to make, worth selling, and is on the skill up path. Look at solstice robes. Acrylia studded cloaks. Halas Meat Pies. Grobb Liquidized Meat. These are all markets that have been TRASHED because they are 'easy' to make and worth selling. Imagine how easy it will be to skill up if instead of just having to deal with the broken hollowshade war AND people deliberately breaking the war to keep the market on the items they are selling for profit (or don't imagine, look at what happened to tailors when the only source of pelts for acrylia armour was a zone war in DSP. They screamed about people hogging spawns, resetting the war, and screamed some more until more drops were added). I DO NOT want this to happen to smithing. I want a reasonable progression to 250, and I want tempers reviewed for PoP armour. Making it harder to skill up to 250 by making items more profitable won't help.

It could easily get worse too. We could end up like pre-SoL tailoring with a huge gap from 158 to 250 and nothing to bridge it except the good stuff (like BD armour - imagine if you will skilling up on THAT from 158 to 250). Fine plate could require mana vials (the only major pain tailoring still has on us, stupid Wu's). Banded could require silk swatches (inky caster chain does) meaning you have to start farming at really low skill - not that silk is any great pain to farm but still.

For God's sake STOP THE MADNESS! Don't ask them to make SS BETTER, have them make it EASIER. The last time we asked for better, we got the FP trivial changes to make the difficulty comparable to the reward.

[Hjalmarr]

I don't know where SoE is going to go with all of this....I just hope they don't make mistletoe cutting sickles no drop since it is the only "store bought" option left. A sick option, yes, but still an option.

For my money, I'd be happiest with an increase in the availability of components of SS or acrylia pieces. I feel that here is a kinda big jump in the level you've got to be to do the quest for SS, especially if you consider the level needed to control the hollowshade war. They can either up the drop rate or put the components on more mobs, and that would be enough to make me generally happy.

Hjalmarr

[Koner]

Well I can see why SOE is looking into the skill progression. With the release of PoP there are now more armor types that are trivial >250 than there are &lt;250. BD cultural, Taw Ewe, Nightmare Iron, Hurricane, Farwater, and a few others I can' t remember off the top of my head. Keep in mind that this post started with a quote from the Developers Corner stating that they were looing into TRADESKILL progression. Not blacksmithing specifically. I think with the release of PoP and having SO many recipes trivial >250 it puts a new perspective on tradeskills as a whole. Should the components to make the TOP quality stuff be hard to get? Hell yes. Should it be difficult to become a grandmaster? Hell yes. Should it be harder to become a grandmaster blacksmith than a grandmaster baker? Yes I think so. BUT should the system be designed so that some players have a decided advantage over others as it is now? Definately not. And it should not be set up so that a player has to spend the vast majority of their time farming from trivial mobs to make items that are of very little to no value.

I myself have made over 1000 attempts at either Shadowscream or Acrylia armor since the June patch. I have gotten 9, yes thats right 9 skill improves. I play somewhere between 15 and 20 hours a week. If I spend all of my time playing for one week doing nothing but farming components for shadowscream I can get enough for 100 attempts. That means about one skill improve a week IF I don't attend any raids with my guild, IF I don't try to get any experience for myself. Nothing but farm trivial mobs. I consider myself a casual player as do many of you. Do I think that SOE has created a broken product with EQ blacksmithing? OH YES. Unfortunately I think they did so intentionally. It is my personally belief that SOE caters to the players who play 30+ hours a week. I think they cater the large UBER guilds. And I think they largely ignore the casual gamer like myself and many of you. This is why I find some hope in their announcement :

Tradeskills. We're reviewing the current recipe line-up for any gaps in skill progression, and items that aren't appropriately rewarding for their difficulty

It just makes me believe that after all that they have done to make tradeskills as messed up as they currently are that they are indeed loooking to improve the situation.