Under Review

[Aethn]

200 Cod Oil,
400 odd Arctic Wyvern Hides
40 Cobalt Drake Hides
30 Drake Egg Oil
2 Yew Leaves
40 odd Black Panther Skins
30 odd Tigerraptor Hides

I can farm EVERY bit of that in the Bazaar / Vendors for CASH. You cannot do that with smithing. You MUST kill the severely GREEN MOBs yourself since the only middle class non-rich skill path is 2/3 NO DROP.

So tell me again how tailoring is so hard??

[Bennan]

Cod Oil I have seen on sale once for 30pp.
Arctic Hides go for 40pp to 165pp, there are 3 or 4 sellers atm, with around 200hides between them.
Drake hides 160 to 300pp(if you are extremely lucky).
Drake Egg Oil, only seen Drake Eggs and they go for 30 to 40pp each (I think).
Yew Leaves, if ever up for sale 100pp each
Panther Skins, hardly ever up for sale 100pp each, minimum.
Tigerraptor Hides, as above 100pp each.
Small Piece of Velium 10 to 40pp each, two nights ago I got 1 piece for 10pp, there was no more on sale.
Small Brick of Velium 20 to 60pp each, there was 40 on sale, most about 40pp 2 nights ago.
Large Brick of Velium 40 to 80pp each.
Block of Velium 80 to 160pp each, last night, there was about 4 on sale from 140 to 160pp each.

Small Piece of Velium and Small Bricks, are only ever in the Bazaar in spurts, at realistic prices. DO remember on a server there will be other players who will be buying the merchandise for Tailoring as well.

Unless you are saying your server has abundant supplies of ALL tailoring recipies, at cheap prices ALL the time. Sure tailoring is not hard.

I am not the bank of Norrath, you might be able to afford that, I can't.

The last thing I want to do, is start or be part of a non-constructive thread, that has nothing to offer (and in my opinion the information that has been coming out of Kiztents, and my posts has been at least informative).

Perhaps this debate is only going to go around in circles ?

[kiztent]

Cod Oil I have seen on sale once for 30pp.
Arctic Hides go for 40pp to 165pp, there are 3 or 4 sellers atm, with around 200hides between them.
Drake hides 160 to 300pp(if you are extremely lucky).
Drake Egg Oil, only seen Drake Eggs and they go for 30 to 40pp each (I think).
Yew Leaves, if ever up for sale 100pp each
Panther Skins, hardly ever up for sale 100pp each, minimum.
Tigerraptor Hides, as above 100pp each.
Small Piece of Velium 10 to 40pp each, two nights ago I got 1 piece for 10pp, there was no more on sale.
Small Brick of Velium 20 to 60pp each, there was 40 on sale, most about 40pp 2 nights ago.
Large Brick of Velium 40 to 80pp each.
Block of Velium 80 to 160pp each, last night, there was about 4 on sale from 140 to 160pp each.

Cobalt cod: less than 1pp on vendor (saw one once)
Arctic Hides: 17pp on vendor
Drake hides: 17pp on vendor
Drake Eggs: less than 5pp on vendor
Yew Leaves: never seen on vendor
Panther Skins: never seen on vendor
Tigerraptor Hides: never seen on vendor
Small Piece of Velium: 5gp on vendor
Small Brick of Velium: 13pp on vendor
Large Brick of Velium: 25pp on vendor
Block of Velium: 40pp on vendor

windstones: 17pp on vendor
essence of wind: 1pp on vendor
block of acrylia: 110pp on vendor
large brick of acrylia: 40pp on vendor
clear mana vial: enchanter made (about 150pp if viscous mana is any gauge)
enchanted large brick of adamantium: 262pp on vendor (also enchanter made)
essence of shadow: less than 1pp on vendor
elf blood: less than 1pp on vendor
wailing substance: not found on vendors
shrieking substance: not found on vendors
swirling shadows: not found on vendors

The main frustration comes from the fact that smiths don't have the OPTION to vendor mine for components (well, unless they have access to a 29? enchanter to make vials for acrylia combines). I'm not going to say tailoring on vendor sold stuff is quick, but it is possible.

[Bennan]

The main frustration comes from the fact that smiths don't have the OPTION to vendor mine for components

That needs to be rephrased;

The main frustration comes from the fact that smiths don't have the OPTION to vendor mine for components, if they are doing Shadowscream

[Angelsyn]

For every 400 Bricks of Acrylia I see for sale in the Bazaar, I might see 1 Windstone.

That's just bent.

[Kradlum]

Kradlum, damage bonuses depend on your Class and Level.
You get the same damage bonus for any 1H weapon regardless of type.
Of course faster weapons use the damage bonus a bit more but that only really applies at very high levels.

For damage purposes, are you saying a 9/19 Lammy (or Defiance) is > a 12/20 Tae Ew long sword??

I only play a rogue and shaman so maybe it's different for warriors...

Oops sorry ops: , I've only been playing for 4 months, so I guess there are still things I need to figure out. Maybe I'll try one of those long swords for my off hand.

[kiztent]

The main frustration comes from the fact that smiths don't have the OPTION to vendor mine for components

That needs to be rephrased;

The main frustration comes from the fact that smiths don't have the OPTION to vendor mine for components, if they are doing Shadowscream

Uh, no, it doesn't.

Acrylia requires mana vials, PoP armour requires mana vials, black acrylia requires mana vials, tae ew requires mana vials and cultural requires enchanted ore. Mistletoe cutting sickles require imbued emeralds. If there is another recipe set with trivial over 188 that doesn't, I'd love to hear what it is.

There is no smithing recipie over 188 trivial that doesn't require no drop or enchanter made components - excepting human freeport cultural which trivials at 215 before you need enchanted or imbued items. Therefore I CANNOT vendor mine components for skill ups without engaging an enchanter (or priest).

Studded acrylia, all tradable components, no enchanted components.
Reinforced acrylia, same.
Arctic wyvern hide, same.

Thanks, but wrong.

[Frabbens]

A few stray thoughts from a wee journeyman tailor:

-- I do believe that smithing to 250 is harder than tailoring to 250 overall. I have great respect for someone who has raised smithing or tailoring to 250. I have a deep and abiding pity for someone who has done both. It saddens (and baffles) me in any event to think that attaining 250 in any skill wouldn't be considered a significant accomplishment, especially from those who have attained it or are working towards it in another skill.

-- The fact that smithing is god-awful hard to grandmaster doesn't make my path to GM tailor one iota easier (we'll ignore overlaps in certain resources, which should be pretty much negligible anyway).

-- Smithing past 188 might be much harder than tailoring past 158 (though how one would quantify this is beyond me), but that means a smith has to skill up 62 times on 'difficult' combines, whereas a tailor has 92 skill ups. Again, this doesn't make post-158 tailoring a picnic.

-- Before the advent of woven mandrake, essentially nothing could be tailored without something being killed first. Given a few hundred plat, one can comfortably smith into the 140s or so without so much as looking at a mob. My smithing skill is 116, largely on bits/boning, lanterns, and banded.

-- It is possible to skill up to 250 in both trades entirely from bazaar/vendor purchases. It is much easier for a tailor to do this, however, particularly where cultural is not available.

-- Some of the major skill-up paths in both smithing and tailoring are economically ruinous, given current market prices for finished goods. In my experience, it is possible to skill up tailoring profitably if you're careful and a bit lucky. I don't know if this is true of smithing.

-- The path for tailoring from 131 to 158 can be accomplished without the intervention of an enchanter. However, if you don't call on the enchanter you'll want an exorcist at the end.

-- I personally feel these trades should be very hard, and that grandmastery should elude all but the most dedicated (and stubborn, and foolish). If I do get to 250, it will be as important and noteworthy as getting my epic. I don't want tailoring to become any easier than it presently is. I think smithing should be nearly as hard as it is now; any changes should be incremental (higher windstone drops, shadowscream components droppable/rentable, but not readily accessible new skill-up paths).

Be well, and Bristlebane guide you all.

[kiztent]

-- I personally feel these trades should be very hard, and that grandmastery should elude all but the most dedicated (and stubborn, and foolish). If I do get to 250, it will be as important and noteworthy as getting my epic. I don't want tailoring to become any easier than it presently is. I think smithing should be nearly as hard as it is now; any changes should be incremental (higher windstone drops, shadowscream components droppable/rentable, but not readily accessible new skill-up paths).

Actually with the move to skyfire the cleric epic is pretty easy now.

I'd agree with everything you said (for paths) and add a close review of enchante metal spell level and mana costs.

[Koner]

Kiztent I'm sure you will argue this with me but you just appear to be one argumentative cuss. You seem to thrive on it.

[Bennan]

Acrylia requires mana vials, PoP armour requires mana vials, black acrylia requires mana vials, tae ew requires mana vials and cultural requires enchanted ore. Mistletoe cutting sickles require imbued emeralds. If there is another recipe set with trivial over 188 that doesn't, I'd love to hear what it is.

Yes Shadowscream.

Don't forget I can vendor mine alot of components, for the above items. Just not all of them.

Plus I thought we had already highlighted the fact that you can't Vendor mine all tailoring ingredients. Just like Smithing, plus as you already mentioned "I am not suggesting that Vendor Mining is a skill up path for collecting ingredients" (thats more or less what you said). Also not too mention you are using alot of non-skill up path items as examples here, does that mean I should use things like Holgresh fur and Haze Panters as anchors in my arguements ?

It makes much more sense for me to forage my own drake eggs rather than rely on finding them all on vendors. To the same extent as me making my own brellium sheets, rather than finding them on vendors...

I can Vendor mine alot of the ingredients for my Dwarf Cultral, just not all of them. Thats how it should be.

There is no smithing recipie over 188 trivial that doesn't require no drop or enchanter made components - excepting human freeport cultural which trivials at 215 before you need enchanted or imbued items. Therefore I CANNOT vendor mine components for skill ups without engaging an enchanter (or priest).

Yes, Ethereal Sheet of Metal

Studded acrylia, all tradable components, no enchanted components.
Reinforced acrylia, same.
Arctic wyvern hide, same.

No enchanted components, is correct. But I have to smith and brew them as well. I can't sew metal bits into studs !

In closing, I can vendor mine for lava rocks, drops of mercury, pelts for padding, the silk, and Blue Diamonds. I have to make/buy my own Brellium. Just because I can't vendor farm ALL of the ingredients (which btw I can't do in tailoring as well), does not move the recipie into the realm of super impossible.

The main frustration comes from the fact that smiths don't have the OPTION to vendor mine for components

Which is why that statement is completly wrong. YOU can vendor mine, but you are applying the rule of "If I have at least one component, in a recipie that I can not vendor mine, then that recipie is completly invalidated". And I can apply that rule to tailoring and come up with exactly the same arguements for many things, just like you did. You can vendor mine, Blocks of Black Acrylia do appear on Vendors, just like Cobalt Drake hides. Its just not very common.

Honestly, we already covered these points, in previous posts about Vendor Mining components. This is what I mean about going around in circles...

[Estebar]

Some random comments:

I have a smith and a tailor both in the 190s. At this point, it is possible to make money smithing while buying things in the bazaar, but with tailoring it's making stuff to lose the least amount. This is because acrylia plate BPs go for 1k, while reinforced tunics are 600p.

I make more tailoring combines because my bazaar character is the tailor, but even if the smith was the bazaar mule, there are over 100 flawless hides to 4 windstones for sale right now.

I do know of one set of smithing recipes which is all droppable and doesn't require an enchanter. Seru bane weapons. I haven't hunted any of the drops, but I have only ever seen one fungoid sap for sale.

[kiztent]

Acrylia requires mana vials, PoP armour requires mana vials, black acrylia requires mana vials, tae ew requires mana vials and cultural requires enchanted ore. Mistletoe cutting sickles require imbued emeralds. If there is another recipe set with trivial over 188 that doesn't, I'd love to hear what it is.

Yes Shadowscream.

That's not vendor minable either - the components are no drop and no rent.

Don't forget I can vendor mine alot of components, for the above items. Just not all of them.

Plus I thought we had already highlighted the fact that you can't Vendor mine all tailoring ingredients. Just like Smithing, plus as you already mentioned "I am not suggesting that Vendor Mining is a skill up path for collecting ingredients" (thats more or less what you said). Also not too mention you are using alot of non-skill up path items as examples here, does that mean I should use things like Holgresh fur and Haze Panters as anchors in my arguements ?

Ok, I'll try this again. There is a path for tailoring that is completely vendor minable. I detailed it above (though I admit cobalt cod are not exactly common on vendors - if push comes to shove I can fish any time I like it CS - a lot easier than I could have found an enchater for vials or a druid/cleric for emeralds - except I've levelled an enchanter precisely because of the bogosity of smithing post 188). Smithing does not have a completely vendor minable path. I do not think this is reasonable, and (to get back to the original point), I think this lack makes smithing more difficult.

It's just really that simple. I don't think every path should be vendor minable. I think there should be ONE. Smiths don't have it.

I don't think vendor mining is a great way to skill up, but it should be an option. That's all I'm asking for. An option.

Kiztent I'm sure you will argue this with me but you just appear to be one argumentative cuss. You seem to thrive on it.

Two things will shut me up - fixing smithing and by that I mean providing reasonable skill paths to 250 or people not distorting or misunderstanding my points. Maybe I'm not being clear, but to me the problem is glaringly obvious. I'll keep trying until people understand what I'm saying. I'll argue with anyone that wants to disagree with me. If I hear a compelling arguement, I'll revise my thinking.

Listening to Bennen I think that shadowscream is unfixable as is - I don't see a way to make the farming easy enough without making it too easy. But the current scenario is too annoying.

[Arbelac]

Well I'm not 250 yet, but everything I've done has been AFTER the trivial nerf. FP to 188 wasn't too bad, but everything after that has been crazy stupid expensive. The most effective option for me has been old human Freeport cultural. And you know what? That skillup path has been nerfed now. Mugs of Sea Foam for the tempers (you need 2 per temper) are incredibly **** rare now. They used to drop fairly commonly off seafuries and I could find them in the bazaar a lot.

Now, I've killed 20 seafuries in a row, and haven't had a SINGLE one drop. I've been fortunate enough to purchase the few that drop from other people hunting in the zone, but for me to get 40 Foams, which is enough for 20 tempers, assuming I don't FAIL a TRIVIAL combine, will probably take me at least a week of playtime now. JUST TO DO ONE SET OF COMBINES!

Tailoring might be hard yes. I know some tailors. Half of those tailors have gotten 250 in the last couple of months.

Elmarr (he's on my server, nice guy btw), grats to him for making 250.

However, smithing nowadays is way more expensive than tailoring, considering that you can farm Velious components with more ease than raiding CT for Tae Ew blood, Farming the planes for BD's or other planar combine stuff. Not to mention that CT and BA recipes require Distilled Mana, which usually goes for about 400pp a shot in the bazaar.

Anyone who thinks Tailoring is harder than smithing needs to give their head a shake.

And don't even talk about StupidScream. That is so blatantly stupid for a skillup path. You'd have to spend hours online, just to get the shadows for a decent run at the forge, assuming you can get the other substances!

Signed,
One pissed off smith

[Bennan]

(to get back to the original point), I think this lack makes smithing more difficult.

That is not the Original point. Your statement Smithing, is TWICE as hard is the point.

If there is another recipe set with trivial over 188 that doesn't, I'd love to hear what it is.

That was the question, Shadowscream is the answer. There was no mention of Vendor Mining, in that statement. And yes I was being Anal over that

There is a path for tailoring that is completely vendor minable. I detailed it above

Ok if I go slowish, I can do about hmm 80 to a hundred combines of Shadowscream, a week. Thats about one and a half hours on Monday and Wednesday about 3 hours on Friday and another 3 hours on Sat or Sun. Note I average about 14 to 16 swirling shadows per 30 mins.

If I want to do 80 to 100 combines of Arctic Wyvern Hides, I have to mine/gather 1200 Small Pieces of Velium, 100 Arctic Hides and 100 Cobalt Cods.

Then I have to make the Velium Vapors, which for every 2 studs means I have to have 4 of them available, and to make one of those it takes 4 cel essence (a simple 2 combine) and a coldain heater (a three combine). Or I could just buy them, at 27ish pp I think.

In a week, on Tarrew Marr, EVEN if I bought as much as I could from the bazaar, got real lucky from Vendor Mining, and Hunted non-stop... I would be flat broke, and suffering from sleep deprivation, and I doubt I would have all those needed components, and thats just one week. I recently got super lucky in the bazaar, 120 small pieces of Velium, for 20 pp each. Most days there is not one piece of Velium at a realistic price, remember I have to compete against fellow tradeskillers to buy this stuff.

What you don't understand, is that these recipies for Tailoring that look oh so easy are not. Every recipie has something that is very very painful to gather, in any meaningful quality.

I have gone to great length, to reply to everything you have brought up. You even stated at the start of this conversation, that you are not suggesting Vendor Mining as a realistic method of achieving skillups. But thats what you are doing now.

Vendor Mining is a BONUS thats it, players that kill in C.S do become aware that Arctic Hides and Cobalt Hides are valuable. As eventually, they see tailors auctioning for it, and then they don't sell it to the vendors !