Master Tradeskill Tool

[Ngreth Thergn]

Can't you also adjust though, a hard coded fail rate (you must fail at least X% of the time) and set that so the combine could be no-fail? Or would setting that to 0 just mean you have the normal success rate or does it not accept negative numbers? You have a -100% chance to fail

Although it would not allow for the 16, 15, 14, 13 cycle that someone was hoping for.

Nope. The code does an absolute value on that field.

[Aldier]

Oh well.

I guess the only solution to making sure something is no fail with a trivial other than 16 is require 200 more skill than the combines trivial to receive the item

[SeeboSteele]

No-fail trival should be 15. Thats what silk swatchs and silk thread trivial at and have never failed on them. Now I have failed on a Artisan's Seal (trivial 16)

[Danedori]

If you think about how tradeskills were originally designed, it would have made sense at the time that the number stored would be difficulty and not the trivial.

Everything that follows from this point is purely conjecture on my part.

The formula for success chance is (if I'm remembering correctly):

Success % = your skill + 50 - .75 * trivial.

From looking at how the success formula works, I would guess that the difficulty level of an item is the skill level you would need to have a 50% chance to succeed on the combine. The 'trivial' is 33% higher than that. This would make difficulty = .75 * trivial, so the formula would become:

Success % = your skill + 50 - difficulty.

Since we didn't have access to the difficulty, but we could figure out trivials based on the messages, from our point of view, the trivial was the important number. For the original designers, the success/failure was the important number and the trivial was a secondary effect. By the time the tradeskill window came out, though, the trivial was so ingrained in the community, that it didn't make sense to show the difficulty.

Danedori

[Ngreth Thergn]

If you think about how tradeskills were originally designed, it would have made sense at the time that the number stored would be difficulty and not the trivial.

Everything that follows from this point is purely conjecture on my part.

The formula for success chance is (if I'm remembering correctly):

Success % = your skill + 50 - .75 * trivial.

From looking at how the success formula works, I would guess that the difficulty level of an item is the skill level you would need to have a 50% chance to succeed on the combine. The 'trivial' is 33% higher than that. This would make difficulty = .75 * trivial, so the formula would become:

Success % = your skill + 50 - difficulty.

Since we didn't have access to the difficulty, but we could figure out trivials based on the messages, from our point of view, the trivial was the important number. For the original designers, the success/failure was the important number and the trivial was a secondary effect. By the time the tradeskill window came out, though, the trivial was so ingrained in the community, that it didn't make sense to show the difficulty.

Danedori

the screwy though...

the script hooks that I have in recipes... give me the TRIVIAL... not the difficulty...

[Zatz-Combine]

as far as this master tool idea goes why not create a collapsible type master tool bag that can automatically pull the require tools out that the character created and deposited in the bag and when the character is done using specified tools all he/she ha to do is deposited the tool back in this bag for store. Another approach could be a permaneant closed bag that when a tool is deposited it gets a flag as being in there and the container tool can see the flag and remove the tool for use. i can expand on this if you want Ngreth.

P.S. where's the spell check link?

[Aldier]

as far as this master tool idea goes why not create a collapsible type master tool bag that can automatically pull the require tools out that the character created and deposited in the bag and when the character is done using specified tools all he/she ha to do is deposited the tool back in this bag for store. Another approach could be a permaneant closed bag that when a tool is deposited it gets a flag as being in there and the container tool can see the flag and remove the tool for use. i can expand on this if you want Ngreth.

P.S. where's the spell check link?

It sounds like this is going to create an inexorbanant amount of recipes that would need to be created and your 2nd idea about the flag, would not work as it would create an item (sellable for plat) for free.

[Deviator]

i posted this before but wouldnt it get rid of the sellback issue, and lower the amount of recipes needed to be created?


Item: "Collapsed bag of Tools" - Container with 1 slot. Combine in it, "Gem of Smithing(baking, alchemy, etc) Tool Summoning" that costs just over the price of the tools it will summon. This item is nodrop, but purchaseable form vendors. When you put the gem in the bag and combine, you get...

Item: "Bag of Smithing Tools" - Container with smithing tools(regular, sellable). Use your tools and when done, put them all back in the container and combine. When combined you get "Collapsed bag of Tools" and your "Gem of XXX Tool Summoning" back.

This way, the cost is more than the tools themselves would sell for, but you get to keep it so you dont have to buy a reagent every time you want to summon some tools. Also the only recipes you would have to add would be for the bags. Add the quest/aa/etc and the gems and you are done.

[Zatz-Combine]

no the way i am describing is that you would have to make the tools to put in the bag - the bag is [B]ONLY[B] for storage of the tools - normal tools only. so when you open the TS tool will display as having the tool on you ( which you will have to have in inventory ) for its use the TS tool will put the tool in normal inventory while being used and you can deposit the tool back into the bag when you are done with it. A;; the bag has to do is hold all tradeskill tools and check to see if only tradeskill tools go into the bag and the bag has to fit into another bag

better explanation?

[Aldier]

Deviator. That would not be very helpful I don't think for conserving bank space.

Instead of 7 10-slot bags in my bank for tools. I now have 7 1 slot bags in my bank for holding tools. Also, some skills have more than 10 tools, others have less than 10. So I would be better off just taking 10 slot bags and loading my tools into them normally and keeping them in the bank.

If you could remove the need for a bag and have the gem right click to summon the bag-o-tools and then have that container be combinable back down to the gem, that would be a possibility, in which it would be "collapsible" so it can be stored efficiently perhaps.

Zatz, bags can't fit into other bags. That would be, to my knowledge, as big of a change as increasing bags to have more than 10 slots. But not positive on this. It sounds like you more are thinking that the bag is not a physical bag but an attachment to the tradeskill UI that you drop the tool in and the tradeskill UI recognizes the tools? And then removes the tool when you use it in a combine? Then you would have to replace the tool into this attached bag-o-tools again for it to remain in "storage"?

That could be a possibility. You hand the tool to an NPC or combine it in a quest container and it goes and is stored like a flag. When you go to use the UI to do a combine, it checks to see if the components are in your inventory (or you have the flag for the item). When you do the combine, it removes the flag if you have one and produces the tool as a normal combine does and then you would have to re-flag yourself when you are done.

The challenge would be if the tradeskill UI can recognize a flag or whatever your character is "marked" as having the tool. Also, it would need to be able to remove the flag when it uses it in a combine.

You place several tools in the special tinkered toolbelt of gnomish banksaving (or some vendor sold item) one at a time. And it converts your tools into a flag. Similar to /key, there could be /tool to list what you have stored. When you do a combine, it checks your inventory and the flags for the item and it removes the flag if you use the item. If you need to repeat the combine, you then would have the tool on your person so that you can do your tradeskill run, or several combines. When you are finished, you would need to get your special toolbelt to reconvert your tools to flags for storage.

Preferrably, the container used would be collapsible and not just able to be turned into a token for easy storage itself as I think it would only need to be 1 slot (not sure if multiple slots producing multiple flags would be possible).

[Deviator]

Aldier, my idea was for one generic bag to be stored in your bank.... but say 7 different gems that can go in it... one for each tool set, when you combine the gem in the bag, you get the appropriate tools for that gem.. which can be combined back down to the generic bag you started with.

this way you can add 2 gems for baking tools if there are more than 10, but you still are only storing one bag.

[Aldier]

Aldier, my idea was for one generic bag to be stored in your bank.... but say 7 different gems that can go in it... one for each tool set, when you combine the gem in the bag, you get the appropriate tools for that gem.. which can be combined back down to the generic bag you started with.

this way you can add 2 gems for baking tools if there are more than 10, but you still are only storing one bag.

Oh ok. Well, there are quite a lot of diversity in tools for some skills and some are quest related or unique or rarer to find/need. It doesn't seem like it will completely solve the dilemna.

For instance, baking tools that are in game, rarely used, but not quest related. I am thinking of wok, bread tin, muffin pan, smoker, skewers...

Common ones that would make sense to have from a gem of baking would be a dairy spoon, pie tin, non-stick frying pan, actually those are the only ones I think are common enough. It would really depend on the (up to 10) items that the gem would create as to if it would be useful enough to replace just storing the items.

Brewing for instance, you have corking device and ummm...

uhh...

well it doesn't sound like brewing needs a gem.

The other thing would be cultural hammers, cultural sewing needles, and things that a smith/tailor of skill would want to include in their collapsed/gem set but then you need unique gems for each race. Planar recipes are another oddity that don't necessarily fit under "normal" tools. Do you just stick with the most commonly used non-quest, non-cultural, non-planar items? There will not be much call for it then as I would say half my tools I frequently use are cultural, quest, or planar.

[Deviator]

we could always get another banker in each town that just holds items flagged as "tradeskill" or even "tool"... but i somehow doubt that is even a possibility lol

[Zatz-Combine]

...
If you could remove the need for a bag and have the gem right click to summon the bag-o-tools and then have that container be combinable back down to the gem, that would be a possibility, in which it would be "collapsible" so it can be stored efficiently perhaps.

Zatz, bags can't fit into other bags. That would be, to my knowledge, as big of a change as increasing bags to have more than 10 slots. But not positive on this. It sounds like you more are thinking that the bag is not a physical bag but an attachment to the tradeskill UI that you drop the tool in and the tradeskill UI recognizes the tools? And then removes the tool when you use it in a combine? Then you would have to replace the tool into this attached bag-o-tools again for it to remain in "storage"?

That could be a possibility. You hand the tool to an NPC or combine it in a quest container and it goes and is stored like a flag. When you go to use the UI to do a combine, it checks to see if the components are in your inventory (or you have the flag for the item). When you do the combine, it removes the flag if you have one and produces the tool as a normal combine does and then you would have to re-flag yourself when you are done.

The challenge would be if the tradeskill UI can recognize a flag or whatever your character is "marked" as having the tool. Also, it would need to be able to remove the flag when it uses it in a combine.

You place several tools in the special tinkered toolbelt of gnomish banksaving (or some vendor sold item) one at a time. And it converts your tools into a flag. Similar to /key, there could be /tool to list what you have stored. When you do a combine, it checks your inventory and the flags for the item and it removes the flag if you use the item. If you need to repeat the combine, you then would have the tool on your person so that you can do your tradeskill run, or several combines. When you are finished, you would need to get your special toolbelt to reconvert your tools to flags for storage.

Preferrably, the container used would be collapsible and not just able to be turned into a token for easy storage itself as I think it would only need to be 1 slot (not sure if multiple slots producing multiple flags would be possible).

this is the general idea - loosely, its not a bag in anyway except as a reference, its an item that shows you having the needed tool in inventory ( after combining it with the sog called holder/bag as an afterthought creating the gems mentioned previously, you could turn it into a quest for another rotating tool like the JC one but its like my "bag" and his "gems" are very close too the same base idea

Question is how can an item be created to hold all the TS tools that wont require changing any recipes while fitting into a bank storage bag?

maybe adding recipes to combine tools into a holder/item and using recipes to take each needed one out? 1 holder/item for each trade skill would prolly fit in a 10 slot bag or even add a master quested holder/item to put the sub-holder/items into...expand on this...

[Kaliaila]

Would take a code change, but it might reduce the number of recipes and make some of the suggested things possible.

Add the various tools to being item flags. My thinking is that all recipes that use but do not consume a tool would use this tool flag to decide if the item is useable instead of the Item number.

For example, if you are making Butter the recipe is:
Bottle of Milk, Dairy Spoon, Rennet

Currently the UI or container if you were experimenting would check to see that you have all items to make sure you have the correct item id #s for the combine on your person or in the container to decide if you could do the combine.

For my suggestion my the sytem would still check the item id #s for the Bottle of Milk and Rennet, but instead of looking to see if you have the item id # for the Dairy Spoon instead it would instead check the items in your posession to see if any of them are flagged as a Dairy Spoon.

This way you could have a number of different items that would work as the same tool without having to drastically increase the number of recipes in existance. Recipes that consume items that are normally returned would of course still use the old item id # method.

This change would in turn allow for the existance of Master XXXX tool items that cycle thru tools similiar to how the JC tool does. One could even add a longish quest for each TS which would result in an Ultimate Master XXXX tool that could be flagged as every tool used in that TS.

Just something I though of from Ngreth mentioning he is waiting on a code change for a 'tools' section to be added to the TS recipes.