Porous loam Exq Fluid/Marrow

[MareeTP]

We kill golems when we are in Crystallos. They are just another mob which needs close attention and a strong group. The adds can be mezzed. If they could not be mezzed, I can see them as not a group mob. But they can. The tank can aggro them all while the chanter gets them mezzed. It simply takes coordination and some thinking to place the mob correctly and be prepared for the possibility of a split.

We also kill the eyes. Same thing. Good placement, quick reflexes and a strong group and they are very manageable.

As Crystallos is the tier 4 zone, I don't see why it shouldn't be a tough, risky place in which to group. It's intended to be the hardest zone in the expansion right up to and including the end of SoF.. a year from now. And the rewards should be something you can't easily get elsewhere. Makes complete sense to me. It's possible that the loams wont make it to the general marketplace for a while. All the loams Ive acquired have gone to gear up guildmembers and friends. Not to be sold. But give it a few months. They will trickle out as more people acquire the gear to farm the zone.

Thank you for making an exception on the drops there, Nygreth.

[Totemic]

We kill golems when we are in Crystallos....blah blah blah [completely missing the point]...

That's nice.

The point, since you missed it, is that there's an inbalance between the rate at which loams enter the game world vs. the rate at which fluid/marrows enter the game world in Crystallos.

The underlying goal, I assume is to ensure that the rate of all three entering the world is roughly on par with each other (if this isn't the case, by all means correct me).

Unfortunately, because of the way the mobs are tuned in Crystallos, the implementation of the drops in Crystallos doesn't achieve this goal (not even close in fact).

This has NOTHING to do whether the mobs are killable (they are), or whether they should be hard (they should) or that the drops should be rare (they are and should). This has EVERYTHING to do with what the intended rate of items entering the game world is suppose to be.

It doesn't matter if your group regularly farms golems or eyes (although, I find the latter hard to believe since even Nodyin specifically stated that the eyes are zone sweepers and were designed to be avoided), the fact is majority of the people hunting in Crystallos do not. This is abundantly clear when I run around the zone and see people chain pulling drakes, wyverns, and elementals while pointedly avoiding any golems or eyes.

Because of this, the rate at which marrows and fluids enter the world is going to be much higher than the rate at which loams enter the world. Furthermore, the *DEMAND* for the loam will be proportionately higher because 9 out of 16 classes in game require loams vs. 3 for marrow and 4 for fluid.

The "exception" for Crystallos should have been to flag everything in there as humanoid and allow each one of the mobs in there a chance to drop any of the three components.

[MareeTP]

I respectfully disagree with your points. The people running around killing the drakes and avoiding the loam-bearing golems as you describe, are doing so because they are not geared or grouped well enough to kill the golems. Sure the eyes can be avoided.. while you're running to camp. But once in camp, we kill everything that happens by. Including eyes. (Which by the way, are easier than golems.) My point is not to brag, it's that it's possible to kill all the types of mobs in zone when you are geared and grouped appropriately for the zone. Then the "balance" issue becomes a moot point.

Right now, people are in Crystallos farming the easier mobs. That wont last.. they will gear up and by the end of SoF, the golems will be killed as easily as they are killing drakes now.

It's supposed to be a tough end zone. They are supposed to be rare drops. There is a reward for tackling the golems.. right now its the rarest tradeskill drop in the game. I dont see a thing wrong with that.

Your point was "balance". I understand the point, but I dont think we are "entitled" to the easiest mobs in the zone dropping all the rare drops. This expansion is supposed to last a year. You're demanding "balance in drops" immediately, when there is a range of difficulty in the zone mobs and a challenge to become strong enough to take on the ones that drop the rarest items.

By the end of SoF, drops will be coming evenly and consistently from Crystallos. It will just take the players some time to get there.

[Totemic]

I respectfully disagree with your points. The people running around killing the drakes and avoiding the loam-bearing golems as you describe, are doing so because they are not geared or grouped well enough to kill the golems. Sure the eyes can be avoided.. while you're running to camp. But once in camp, we kill everything that happens by. Including eyes. (Which by the way, are easier than golems.) My point is not to brag, it's that it's possible to kill all the types of mobs in zone when you are geared and grouped appropriately for the zone. Then the "balance" issue becomes a moot point.

Right now, people are in Crystallos farming the easier mobs. That wont last.. they will gear up and by the end of SoF, the golems will be killed as easily as they are killing drakes now.

It's supposed to be a tough end zone. They are supposed to be rare drops. There is a reward for tackling the golems.. right now its the rarest tradeskill drop in the game. I dont see a thing wrong with that.

If balance is the point you are trying to make, then I think the drakes and wyverns were set too easy. That doesnt logically follow that the rest of the zone should be reduced in difficulty nor that the rare drops should all be available from the easy mobs. Ive heard the wyverns are going to be patched to start summoning, someone already said they cant be snared.

By the end of SoF, drops will be coming consistently from Crystallos.

No, for your level of gearing the drakes/wyverns are too easy.
Keep in mind the intended goal of this zone. It's not a place for bored raiders to come and gear up their alts.

It's designed as the end game zone for non-raiders. Meaning, non-raiders who go through the process of gearing up through T2 armor, which then allows them to hunt in T3 zones for core to make T3 armor, which then allows them to hunt in Crystallos for essences for making T4 armor.

The way the trash are tuned right now is almost spot on for the intended audience. I'm not even objecting to the golems or the eyes (although, I personally do not believe a zone sweeper mob is a good idea since it renders a fair chunk of the zone unused).

What I am objecting to is the way the drops are distributed.

Keep in mind, there's a very strong incentive for folks to kill drakes and wyverns. Any one of them can be a placeholder for the Elder version--which can load a 500hps item or an essence for upgrading T3 armors to T4 level.

Golems, which are considerably more dangerous than either the drakes or wyverns (or for that matter elders or squires) to my knowledge are not place holders for anything. The only loot worth noting is the 0.8% chance they have of dropping a loam (or whatever the actual chance is).

This ensures that people will kill drakes/wyverns and avoid golems if they can help it (and it's absolutely trivial to avoid the golems since golems are almost always found in the eyeball's roam path).

Even later in the game, you will still have people avoiding the golems and hunting exclusively the drakes/wyverns. Face it, no one goes into Crystallos for "mad exp". If they want "mad exp", they go to T2 zones where the mobs have less than half the hps, less than half the dps and give pretty much the same exp per kill.

People go to Crystallos for loot. Golems just don't load enough loot to be worth the bother. And because they are the only source of loams in Crystallos, the end result is that loam rate is going to be almost non-existent in Crystallos.

[MareeTP]

I edited my post to try to make my point a bit clearer. Not sure if I succeeded or not.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I think we see it from two different perspectives.

I go to Crystallos for "mad experience" and faction, myself. The loot drops are a bonus. The faction is king.

The zone is a challenge. Its hard, it requires skills. It requires a group of people with skills. Thats what I like most of all about it. There is nothing wrong with a challenge to get the rarest drops. Its pretty much a theme in EQ.

I strongly disagree with the idea that all drops should be equal off the easiest mobs in the zone.

[Totemic]

The problem is that the zone really isn't that challenging.
It's a pure gear check zone for the tank. If you have a sufficiently geared tank, it's a snoozefest since the mobs basically reduce down to: Pull, debuff, tank, heal, dps down. Rinse repeat. I can name several Zeka/MMM camps which make Crystallos look like a glorified MPG camp.

It's basically the oldest EQ paradigm simply boosted up by the sheer dps output of these mobs.

Furthermore, no matter what you claim about this zone, the reality is that players will ALWAYS opt for the easiest route. This is just human nature.

I know I can tank a golem. I know my group can beat a golem (been there, done that). But it doesn't mean I will intentionally go and hunt golems in there.

Why? Because they are just not worth the headache. They drop no worthwhile loot, they are placed in an area of the zone that makes it **** near impossible to camp (haven't you noticed how almost all the golems are placed directly in the tunnels or hallways where the eye's roam?) and have a pita mechanism that makes their risk/reward balance wonky at best.

Ngreth, I'm sure wasn't intentionally trying to screw the loam classes with the way Crystallos was itemized. I suspect he just counted how many drakes, wyverns and golems are in that zone and balanced accordingly.

The point of this post is that this method doesn't make for a very balanced drop rate. The golems are generally more difficult to manage and are usually placed in an area where most folks just won't hunt. No one I know sets up camp INSIDE the hallways or tunnels in that zone. The whole point of those "zone sweepers" ensure that doesn't happen.

That further throws the numbers off since the number of drakes/wyverns killed is generally much greater than the number of golems killed even if the add mechanism of the golems were removed.

I'm not asking for the drops to be made more common, I'm not even asking for the mobs to be made easier. I'm simply pointing out that the drop rates are not balanced between the loam vs. marrow/fluid. If the intent (and I have to assume here that Ngreth intended for the drop rate to be the same for all three types) was for the rate to be balanced with each other, the implementation needs to be re-thought.

[Kaliaila]

that assumes you do not go to a zone where it is intended to drop (t3/t4)
in those zones the drop rate on appropriate mobs is MUCH better. You should on average get 1 per night with your kill rate (1.728 per night on average to be more precise assuming the 4.5 hour session you mentioned... (1.5 hours + 3 more hours))

Tier 3:

* The Steam Factory
* S.H.I.P. Workshop
* Meldrath’s Majestic Mansion
(excluding Zeka since it doesn't have any mobs that can drop cultural)
Tier 4:

* Crystallos

None are where people seem to do any regular group grinds, due to either lack of a key to it, lack of a req class for it, or just lack of the groups ability to do it.

I have no problem with those zones having the best chance to drop the Marrows/Fluids/Loams. But only having a 0.03% chance to drop outside of those zones is a bit much.

I think the best thing would be if the appropriate level zones outside of t3/t4 SoF had a rate equivolent to their difficulty compared to the t3/t4 zones.

[thrashette]

We kill golems when we are in Crystallos. They are just another mob which needs close attention and a strong group. The adds can be mezzed. If they could not be mezzed, I can see them as not a group mob. But they can.

It's basically inevitable that you will get a 4x mez resist within 20 golems...and that's a group wipe if you aren't overgeared.

Meaning farming golems is luck, not skill of any kind.

I wish that Sony had placed an appropriate zone for post-Solteris guilds to exp and gear up alts. All they have is crystallos, which is basically beneath their gear level.

[Totemic]

I think the best thing would be if the appropriate level zones outside of t3/t4 SoF had a rate equivolent to their difficulty compared to the t3/t4 zones.

There are ZERO zones outside of T3/T4 zones in SoF that is comparable in terms of mob dps output. Not one. Not even Silyshar mobs come close--even the ass beating ooze in that zone don't come close to holding a candle against a T3, let alone T4 mob's dps.

Don't just look at the min/max hits (although, even that's kind of eyepopping for SoF T3/T4 zones), but remember the boosted attack and "special" melee abilities like strikethrough that they gave only to SoF mobs.

The only zones that come close are the raid instances of various zones.

I'm not kidding when I say it's easier for me to tank a level 80+ shadowblade in FC raid DZ than it is to tank a level 80+ golem in Crystallos. While the FC shades have higher min/max hits, I will trivially tank a shade with one healer even if the shade wasn't slowed. There's no way I can sustain tank an unslowed Crystallos melee mob.

Against a shadowblade I see 1148, miss, miss, miss, 1148, miss, miss, 3000, miss, miss, miss, 1148, etc...

Against a golem I see 758, 3000, 2000, miss, miss, 4000, 2000, 3000, miss, 758, etc...

Those SoF mobs have been eating their wheaties.

[MareeTP]

Its not luck, its good group skills. And not even hard skill. Have your DPS turn off attack when the golem splits. Place the golem away from the rest of the group. Have the tank non-dmg aggro the four little golems while the chanter mezzes. Assume at the start that all mezzes will be resisted so you are prepared. The big golem isnt going anywhere. They dont split at the start so the tank has had plenty of time to build enough aggro to ignore the big golem for a while at split. They will all get mezzed even if some resist at first. Then focus back on the big golem, kill him, kill the little ones one by one and youre done. Once your group has done it a few times, its quite doable.

The eyes are the same. However, with them you are going to want to damage the eye for the first time where you want the 3 brown golems to pop. Because unlike the splitting golem, they will show up at the exact spot where the eye is first damaged. So you cant fight the eye at the group, then drag it away before the split. Because the golems will appear right on top of your group. It has to be positioned correctly from the start.

Yes, the tank has to be well geared, and the cleric with a good mana pool and quick reflexes, and the rest of the group sharp and with quick reactions. But its two months into a year long expansion and this is the end zone for that expansion. I dont understand why anyone would expect the all the mobs to be easily doable this early in the game by non-raiders. Groups in raiding gear are still challenged by the zone. The drakes and wyverns have been a nice bonus. By the end of the year, golems will be killed on a regular basis.. mostly because they are the ones that drop the loam. Then the large numbers of golems in Crystallos will be judged a good thing.

EDIT: and something I really am happy about is that the rare drops are clearly split by type. I can go right to the TYPE of mob I want to get the drop I want. I took Nygreth's "made an exception" statement to mean the types arent muddled up like they are in other parts of the world. That's a real plus if you think about it for future farming. Probably not what was intended, but its a definite benefit - especially since there are so many of them there.

[Twistagain]

There are ZERO zones outside of T3/T4 zones in SoF that is comparable in terms of mob dps output. Not one. Not even Silyshar mobs come close--even the ass beating ooze in that zone don't come close to holding a candle against a T3, let alone T4 mob's dps.

The other poster wasn't saying that there are other zones equal in difficulty. They were saying that the drop rate should be based on the compared difficulty.

For instance, if a zone is 80% as difficult, they should drop 80% as commonly.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Tier 3:

* The Steam Factory
* S.H.I.P. Workshop
* Meldrath’s Majestic Mansion
(excluding Zeka since it doesn't have any mobs that can drop cultural)
Tier 4:

* Crystallos

None are where people seem to do any regular group grinds, due to either lack of a key to it, lack of a req class for it, or just lack of the groups ability to do it.

I have no problem with those zones having the best chance to drop the Marrows/Fluids/Loams. But only having a 0.03% chance to drop outside of those zones is a bit much.

I think the best thing would be if the appropriate level zones outside of t3/t4 SoF had a rate equivolent to their difficulty compared to the t3/t4 zones.

Why do tradeskills deserve to have Tier 3 drops outside of Tier 3 zones but people going for group drops are required to go the tier 3 zones to get them?

If you want Tier 3 drops you need to go to Tier 3 zones.

That there is ANY chance to get T3 gear outside of T3 zones is nice.

And realistically. If we make no changes to the cultural, even that small chance is going away.

As for the Golems. I believe Nodyin said he will be looking into it. Looking into it though does not mean he will change anything.

[Rawckett]

We kill golems when we are in Crystallos. They are just another mob which needs close attention and a strong group. The adds can be mezzed. If they could not be mezzed, I can see them as not a group mob. But they can. The tank can aggro them all while the chanter gets them mezzed. It simply takes coordination and some thinking to place the mob correctly and be prepared for the possibility of a split.

Oh, you mean it's not mindless killing. No wonder the complaints.

[Rawckett]

That's nice.

The point, since you missed it, is that there's an inbalance between the rate at which loams enter the game world vs. the rate at which fluid/marrows enter the game world in Crystallos.

When people are afraid to kill the mob that the drops the loam, because it is a challanging mob to kill and takes people actually paying attention to what they are doing, of course the rate loams would enter the game world will be lower.

[Sigi]

I strongly disagree with the idea that all drops should be equal off the easiest mobs in the zone.

Sure, we should really punish and discrimiate against the plate classes.

That is all this does. I am at a loss as how you can disagree that all drops should be equal. You seem to forget that it is A LOT easier for silk and leather wearers to get their drops than plate classes, yet plate classes are over 2x the count of silk and leather.

You could argue that since plate classes have more AC/HP, they should have a harder mob to kill? But then you shoot yourself in the foot, because you talk about a balanced group being needed to kill in Crystallos. If that is truly the case, then each member of that group should have equal chances of getting that high-end TS item. There is absolutely no reason that porous loam should be any more difficult to get than exquisite spinneret fluid or exquisite marrow.

I don't even wear plate, I am not a smith (I am a tailor) and this irritates me to no end.