Upcoming Cultural Changes - Next Full Patch (Estimated End of September)

[Aldier]

I do not like the idea that I have to set up a buyer to locate TS supplies. I typically do not have a lot of excess platinum sitting around to let the buyer hold. When I am raiding, or playing (mostly peek time when a buyer would be best) I can't be in buyer mode unless I purchase a 2nd account for JUST a buyer.

I use the bazaar, vendor mining, farming, almost anything I can to locate drops that I, or others in my guild, can use for tradeskills. I may have to look into running a buyer for when I am not playing though. But, I am not looking to spend more time on EQ atm.

[Zopharr]

I can try.

It is a decree from my direct boss though, and he seems fairly adamant about it. He really wants it to be a player market, not an NPC market.

Understand it’s currently an edict from on-high. I am just concerned that it may be an edict may not be informed by the realities of current bazaar dynamics.

If we had a larger number of players and a larger number of suppliers, then making it non-vendable would probably work out. We would have a large number of suppliers; supply and demand, relatively undistorted, would determine prices.

The problem is, we currently have a fairly limited (and dwindling) number of suppliers – on Quellious, about 40 percent fewer sellers than we had 12-15 months ago. The number of suppliers is small enough that it is not at all uncommon for folks to try and corner markets. We have already had someone buy up all the metallic drakescales and jack prices from 14-15k to 30k. We have another player trying to fix the price of sunshard ore, moving it from 500pp to 900pp (when you see someone with 939 sunshard ore - which he had at one point - it’s hard to think that they farmed it all).

While eventually supply and demand may force these prices down, given the small number of traders it can take literally months for prices to return to a reasonable level (the metallic drakescale virtual monopoly has lasted close to two months). In the meantime, tradeskillers get whipsawed by scalpers if they are trying to skill up, losing pretty considerable sums of plat. (And as I have seen the guy with sunshard ore at 900pp go from 939 in stock to 183, and slowly climbing back to 300+ in stock, someone is getting stuck - either losing a lot of plat they have earned in game, or going to a plat-seller to buy it.) The limited pool of smithing component sellers results in imperfect competition. EQ more closely resembles a collection of limited competion or monopoly suppliers more than it does a perfect free market.

I feel kind of viscerally about this because of my experience with smithing. I joined EQ before Velious came out. My first character, Zopharr, managed to get to 242 smithing (the highest possible with the recipes then) when he was level 39 – through a lot of pinching plat, selling in East Commons tunnel, and runs back and forth between Freeport and Kith before metal sheets stacked. I remember the thrill of getting an order for a full set of imbued dwarven plate for 35k right after that (a huge sum then), and when the blue diamond cultural came out during Luclin when I was in my high 40s/low 50s, I was making armor for several hard-core raiders. I got a chance to interact with (and develop a reputation with) players I never would have met otherwise. I wasn’t an adventurer who smithed: I was a smith who also adventured to feed his smithing habit.

As we go more and more to level/flag-restricted drops (PoP was terrible in that regard; the DoN smithing was a big improvement, but still level limited), that experience is harder and harder (if not impossible) to duplicate. The imperfect competition in the bazaar exacerbates the situation even more.

It may not sound like much, but making the smithing supplies vendorable, by adding some more supply to the game, will help create additional downward pressure on prices and mitigate some of the impact of price-fixers. Players can at least vendor dive to look for some minimal supplies instead of being c___blocked by folks monopolizing supply in the bazaar.

Maybe if the smithing drops under the new system are an order of magnitude greater than sunshard currently is, supply will expand so much that the price fixers and scalpers can’t keep up and we can have rational pricing that the casual player (but hard-core tradeskiller) can afford. In that case it may not matter whether the drops are ‘vendorable’ or not. Until folks see that, though, it would be nice to see the drops have some value so one can at least have a shot at finding them on vendors.

Garshok

P.S. All in all, though, it sounds like the new system will be a big improvement over what we have now. While we tradeskillers may haggle over how to make it ‘perfect,’ it does seem like it will significantly improve smithing/tailoring compared to the current situation. Helms off to the house ogre!

[Zopharr]

If we assume that the sunshard ore++ equivalents are for the best gear in the game, then by example they will achieve a market value driven by the player economy in the bazaar, and they will not be cheap.

The exact same argument should apply to lesser tiers of dropped TS components, as it does today with Sunshard Dust and Pebbles.

The problem is that we don’t have that perfect free market. On Quellious we have Drop of Pure rain going for 1k in bazaar while Sunshard Ore goes for 900pp (or 600-700 before the guy at 900pp buys it up). Meanwhile, try comparing Hurricane Chain Bracer with Linked Energeic Bracer – the price has more to do with imperfect information than any rational pricing. We have an imperfect market with a low number of suppliers (which inhibits balancing of supply and demand and lends itself to traders trying to establish monopolies.)

Heck, if the EQ market truly was a classic free market with everyone having the same information, there wouldn’t be an issue about whether these items were ‘vendorable’ – no one would sell them to vendors, they would sell them all to buyers or set up as traders themselves in bazaar. Such isn’t the case, however. Making these items vendorable may mitigate some of the negative effects of the imperfect EQ market.

[Benthair Dunthat]

Sunshard Ore on Drinal runs 1800-2000plat each in bazaar. And it is rare to see more than 20 total bars for sale. Yttrium at 700-1000, and gets snapped up almost immediately. Othmir rarely for sale, but at least 500 plat when it is.

I have to think that new combine materials that are more available (common) will benefit those of us trying to make that last 50 skill levels in smithing and tailoring.

[Aldier]

Sunshard Ore on Drinal runs 1800-2000plat each in bazaar. And it is rare to see more than 20 total bars for sale. Yttrium at 700-1000, and gets snapped up almost immediately. Othmir rarely for sale, but at least 500 plat when it is.

I have to think that new combine materials that are more available (common) will benefit those of us trying to make that last 50 skill levels in smithing and tailoring.

These prices are also more consistent with the situation on Cazic.

I still see people who buy up all the stock at those prices and try and raise them further.

I saw MDS going for 50k last week. /sigh. The same guy still has them though.

[Zopharr]

I saw MDS going for 50k last week. /sigh. The same guy still has them though.

I so hope that the guy jacking them up to 30k on Quellious eats them with the cultural changes.

Garshok

[Qaladar Bragollach]

I sell sunshard ore to a buyer all the time at 600pp.

[Catweazel]

Maybe if the smithing drops under the new system are an order of magnitude greater than sunshard currently is, supply will expand so much that the price fixers and scalpers can’t keep up and we can have rational pricing that the casual player (but hard-core tradeskiller) can afford. In that case it may not matter whether the drops are ‘vendorable’ or not. Until folks see that, though, it would be nice to see the drops have some value so one can at least have a shot at finding them on vendors.

Although I can empathize generally with your concerns, I don't get this last part.

Sunshard Dust - level 25 armor - sells for 10pp in the bazaar and there is lots.
Sunshard Pebbles....125pp
Sunshard Ore....1500pp

Considering the level of armor quality made by Sunshard Ore, and it takes 15 Ores for a set (no weapons), I would consider 30k for a set of decent level 55 armor to be a bargain. The Sunshard Dust armor is also pretty decent, and at 200pp a set, has no equal in my opinion.

Fast forward to Level 80 and new cultural drops, it SHOULD be rare, and it SHOULD be 25k a pop minimum considering the likely quality of the armor it will make. I would expect a full set of level 80 cultural to run around 500,000 plat, maybe a little less.

In between Sunshard Dust and whatever the highest tier of armor mob drop component will be a vast range of drops, varying in price and quantity of drops.

If Level 80 TS drops are "an order of magnitude" greater than Sunshard Ore, something will be terribly broken.

[Zopharr]

Although I can empathize generally with your concerns, I don't get this last part.

Sunshard Dust - level 25 armor - sells for 10pp in the bazaar and there is lots.
Sunshard Pebbles....125pp
Sunshard Ore....1500pp

Considering the level of armor quality made by Sunshard Ore, and it takes 15 Ores for a set (no weapons), I would consider 30k for a set of decent level 55 armor to be a bargain. The Sunshard Dust armor is also pretty decent, and at 200pp a set, has no equal in my opinion.

Fast forward to Level 80 and new cultural drops, it SHOULD be rare, and it SHOULD be 25k a pop minimum considering the likely quality of the armor it will make. I would expect a full set of level 80 cultural to run around 500,000 plat, maybe a little less.

In between Sunshard Dust and whatever the highest tier of armor mob drop component will be a vast range of drops, varying in price and quantity of drops.

If Level 80 TS drops are "an order of magnitude" greater than Sunshard Ore, something will be terribly broken.

Catweazel - I am talking about the skill-up drops being an 'order of magnitude greater' - those are the ones Ngreth said would be more common. Not the armor drops. So no, I'm not asking for the next version of metallic drake scales and the level 80 stuff to drop like candy.

Regarding Sunshard, you're right, 30k would be a good price for a set of 55-60 armor, so Sunshard in the neighborhood of 1k a brick or so would be fine --IF there was a market for it. Problem is, there isn't a market for it, at least not for the 100-odd sets someone would make if they skilled up 268-300 on it. There aren't enough 55-65 players nowadays. I've focused on Tae Ew (maxing out tribute on several characters) and sacred symbols, but I've put up some polished and linked energeic armor and break-even prices (for 450 an ore), and trust me, it doesn't fly off the shelves. I don't think the guy on our server buying up most of the Sunshard Ore and pricing it to 900 is selling it to guys making armor to sell, either.

I think de-linking the skill-up path (templates) from the armor is great. I just want to give the guy trying to tradeskill up the greatest possible number of alternatives to avoid getting **halflinged** in the bazaar by scalpers.

Garshok

[Ngreth Thergn]

Also you folks I think are assuming before you see that actual drop rates.

The skillup stuff is really not rare. Really. Additionally, the stuff that gets you to 300, is not that high level. Sure a level 1 is not going to be hunting it, but it will be easy kills. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think it will be grey... maybe light blue to max level players. Easy kills at least.

[Zopharr]

Also you folks I think are assuming before you see that actual drop rates.

The skillup stuff is really not rare. Really. Additionally, the stuff that gets you to 300, is not that high level. Sure a level 1 is not going to be hunting it, but it will be easy kills. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think it will be grey... maybe light blue to max level players. Easy kills at least.

This is great!

You're right Ngreth, we are "assuming" (with all that that implies). And I think that based on those assumptions we are trying to 'perfect' something that we all pretty much agree is better than what we have - and finding out that you've anticipated well over 90% of our concerns. <grins>

Garshok

[Xenephex]

Also you folks I think are assuming before you see that actual drop rates.

The skillup stuff is really not rare. Really. Additionally, the stuff that gets you to 300, is not that high level. Sure a level 1 is not going to be hunting it, but it will be easy kills. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think it will be grey... maybe light blue to max level players. Easy kills at least.

Light blues to a 75 drop the Tungsten (skill up only - all trivials above 300) and some greens and lower light blues drop Rhenium, which has some skill up trivials above 280.

And yes, this stuff is very, very common. Moreso at lower lower levels, but still plentiful at even the highest levels. I'm in a fairly small guild and have asked people in guild chat to hold onto stuff for me - there's nothing official about it and I'm sure some people forget or maybe don't bother, but I've still accumulated several stacks of Cobalt in the couple of weeks that this has been live, and a lot of Tungsten and Rhenium too. And.. I also have nearly a full stack of Soluble Loam, which is the final combine 'rare' drop and is the controlling factor on how many actual armor or symbol attempts you can make, since the ore is so common. I've seen at least 6 or 7 of the soluble loam drop in exp groups I was in in the last couple of weeks, and I haven't really been spending that much time exp'ing lately.

Think about that, relative to Drake Scales or Hides.

[hiyawathadan]

The killer 14-24 hour patch where all the SOE servers including the websites will be down, does this figure to be the patch where this will go through?

[Catweazel]

Based on their announcement, the downtime is related to "account management". Theoretically they could push other patches through, but I wouldn't if it was my account management system. Managing a global change across all their games and forums and anywhere else your userID is stored seems like a big enough challenge.

[Ngreth Thergn]

yeah. We are trying specifically to **NOT** patch any data with that, because we would not be able to properly test the migration of the data.

Of course things do go wrong in our patches, but the plan is to **NOT** patch data, which means these changes should **NOT** go in