Making Recipe Books useful

[Abazagaroth]

To clarify, I wasn't meaning to be a total downer, but I definitely don't like the idea exactly as proposed. Right click books to learn recipes? Don't have a problem with. Require you to right click a book to learn a recipe (outside of specific things like cultural or whatnot)? I don't like that at all. Get rid of tradeskill containers if favor or a one-size fits all generalized container? I *really* dislike that.

I guess I don't think, as a 300 tailor, I should have to get a book to learn a recipe in order to make a silk swatch.

I wouldn't have a problem, at all, with some mechanism of right click learning, for specific recipes. Like, for example, you get a book with a special recipe as a task reward for some quest, letting you make a stat food or drink that only people that have completed the quest can make. That sounds great and full of promise.

[Treesong]

Ngreth, since the whole "make old containers obsolete" thingy is just in the brainstorming phase, I would like to take my chance on influencing this brainstorming now that I still can.

I do value EQ's RPG-depth enormously and any change that involves "streamlining" and subsequently "getting rid of obsolete stuff" usually triggers every alarmbell that I have.

When I see some old "Runner Assembly kit" (I think its the Woodelf Newbie armor container) in the Inventory of one of my Alts, I get warm feelings and bouts of nostalgie. This is the sort of stuff that makes me feel that EQ is still the only Virtual World out there, with a richness and depth and history that is unmatched by any newer MMO.

I am not saying that I plan to do a whole lot of Wood Elf newbie armor quests. But silly enough, these are things I *still* do in the game. Seeing all sorts of paths and options and items being faded out, and replaced by some generic "common" path just for convenience really blands up the world imo.

I can understand the need to "clean up" code sometimes, or the fact that sometimes code has to make way for some new cool feature. But mostly Everquest has gone the way of letting the old things exist in the world (and become both obsolete *and* part of the Lore and History) while new things were introduced. I LOVE this approach. I am still glad that every old quest is still in the game.

If anything, please let the old containers at least continue to exist in the game, even if they do not work anymore, as artefacts of a history long gone by?

Thanks for listening.

[Bobaten]

Considering after a year, the script to convert the old alchemy potions still hasn't been finished, I don't expect them to convert the old containers to disenchanted bags. The easiest solution is to just remove the combine button, and then have hand ins to NPCs to convert the old containers to the new tradeskill "tools".
On the other hand, they could probably just add the TEMPORARY tag to the current containers, and the current conversion already in place should take care of that. That leaves us reaquiring every tradeskill container again, though it does save slots in the item database.

[Bobaten]

Something else that just occured to me. What about the Collapsed Distillery? Would it still be restricted to combines of four ingredients or less?

[Airl]

One concern I would have with moving all the recipe stuff to the task window is that when a new expansion is released, it is pretty easy to get task locked.

It also isn't much fun if you have a long task that you work on occasionally, and then accidentally remove that task, which results in losing all your progress.

[Treesong]

I would also like to add that things like experimenting, where you have to do some manual "labor", and standing in line for a certain public tradeskill container, are all part of the Virtual World feel for me. The latter can actually be a reason to socialize a bit (waiting for a tradeskill container), something that seems to get more rare in MMO's, or at least gets more and more restricted to socializing during and due to combat (killing mobs).

I do not think there are a lot of queues for tradeskill containers anyway. And the rightclicking of a book to scribe all the recipes is just too easy imo. At least let us mix the ingredients ourselves one time.

There are enough Fantasy Combat Simulators already, please let EQ stay a Virtual Fantasy World.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Get rid of tradeskill containers if favor or a one-size fits all generalized container? I *really* dislike that.

What specifically about this do you not like? It is not like we will be taking out Hand Made backpacks, haversacks, artisan bags, tinkerer's bags... etc... so still lots of containers around. Just not containers that you put items in and click combine. (I am puting asertives here just to avoid acward phrasing. Nothing at all here is even past brainstorming phase, much less planing phase or even "comitment" phase)

I guess I don't think, as a 300 tailor, I should have to get a book to learn a recipe in order to make a silk swatch.

While this may be possible due to "revamping" tailoring (though one of our ideas is getting rid of that silly step and just having you put an appropriate amount of silk in the combine, instead of making swatches first) in general terms we would not be taking away anything you already learned... it would be for "future" things. So assuming no "revamp" you would still know how to do silk swatches. Even with a revamp, and no book, and say silk swatches were changed... it is quite possible you would have to "re-learn" making silk swatches (say I decided it needed some thread to bind the pieces of silk together) by using experiment. Why is it that different instead learning it from a book. You are still going to have to "re-learn" it at some point.

Just remember before panicking about what I have just said. We have not made any firm decisions yet, just brainstorming. Measured responses cool. panicked "Oh My God they are destroying trade-skills" not cool. (and this is not directed at you Abazagaroth. Just a general statement)

The option I have is to flag a recipe as "must know" (well there are 3 options... but the important one to this conversation is the "must know" flag) If I use this flag, it means you cannot experiment to do a recipe combine, you must actually know the recipe. With that I have two ways of making you "know" it. Directly assigning the knowledge via a script function, or putting it in a book that directly teaches it to you.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Considering after a year, the script to convert the old alchemy potions still hasn't been finished, I don't expect them to convert the old containers to disenchanted bags. The easiest solution is to just remove the combine button, and then have hand ins to NPCs to convert the old containers to the new tradeskill "tools".
On the other hand, they could probably just add the TEMPORARY tag to the current containers, and the current conversion already in place should take care of that. That leaves us reaquiring every tradeskill container again, though it does save slots in the item database.

*if* this would go forward it would like be something like the first idea. Someone that stands net to Caerlenya and will exchange a container for the new tool. This is only problematic for me with cultural containers (and ironically, currently the spell research kit), and a few oddballs here and there, where a new item number for the "container" would cause me extra work.

[Abazagaroth]

What specifically about this do you not like? It is not like we will be taking out Hand Made backpacks, haversacks, artisan bags, tinkerer's bags... etc... so still lots of containers around. Just not containers that you put items in and click combine. (I am puting asertives here just to avoid acward phrasing. Nothing at all here is even past brainstorming phase, much less planing phase or even "comitment" phase)


While this may be possible due to "revamping" tailoring (though one of our ideas is getting rid of that silly step and just having you put an appropriate amount of silk in the combine, instead of making swatches first) in general terms we would not be taking away anything you already learned... it would be for "future" things. So assuming no "revamp" you would still know how to do silk swatches. Even with a revamp, and no book, and say silk swatches were changed... it is quite possible you would have to "re-learn" making silk swatches (say I decided it needed some thread to bind the pieces of silk together) by using experiment. Why is it that different instead learning it from a book. You are still going to have to "re-learn" it at some point.

Just remember before panicking about what I have just said. We have not made any firm decisions yet, just brainstorming. Measured responses cool. panicked "Oh My God they are destroying trade-skills" not cool. (and this is not directed at you Abazagaroth. Just a general statement)

The option I have is to flag a recipe as "must know" (well there are 3 options... but the important one to this conversation is the "must know" flag) If I use this flag, it means you cannot experiment to do a recipe combine, you must actually know the recipe. With that I have two ways of making you "know" it. Directly assigning the knowledge via a script function, or putting it in a book that directly teaches it to you.

I don't like the lack of RPGish feel to it. Want to tailor something, you use a sewing kit or a loom. Want to blacksmith, use a forge, etc. Having a tradeskill container where you can do it all doesn't seem interesting at all. Basically, I feel this kind of idea takes away something, maybe something intangible, maybe not, but it takes away *something* from the gaming experience and makes it more like programming to me.

I think the "annoyance" or whatever of some things are very overblown. I remember doing blacksmithing when ore didn't stack, I had to load up in highhold pass then walk all the way back to qeynos, uphill barefoot etc. I am definitely not against making some things easier and less burdensome, but I think it needs to be done in certain ways.

For example, rather than taking away swatches as an unnecessary step, just add more "mass" combines. Being able to do 3 celestial essence at once, being able to imbue 5 gems at once, being able to do 4 vegetable oils at once, these are the kind of streamline things that has made tradeskilling less burdensome to people. Like, if I want to make kaladim constitutionals, its clicking the soda water that sucks now, the CEs I don't even bother looking to buy in the bazaar anymore.

But changes for the sake of convenience that involve taking away realism, taking away the core of the tradeskill system as it exists in eq that makes it different from other games, I just cannot look at with any sense of happiness. I don't like eq2. I don't like wow. I play an 8 year old game because I am attached to my characters, my friends, and I enjoy the gameplay.

I am all for improvements, and I'm sure I could come up with a ton of suggestions for making things easier, or more fun, or less annoying or whatever, but I just don't like this idea as presented. Its just one opinion, but its how I feel.

[Treesong]

I don't like the lack of RPGish feel to it. Want to tailor something, you use a sewing kit or a loom. Want to blacksmith, use a forge, etc. Having a tradeskill container where you can do it all doesn't seem interesting at all. Basically, I feel this kind of idea takes away something, maybe something intangible, maybe not, but it takes away *something* from the gaming experience and makes it more like programming to me.

I think the "annoyance" or whatever of some things are very overblown. I remember doing blacksmithing when ore didn't stack, I had to load up in highhold pass then walk all the way back to qeynos, uphill barefoot etc. I am definitely not against making some things easier and less burdensome, but I think it needs to be done in certain ways.

For example, rather than taking away swatches as an unnecessary step, just add more "mass" combines. Being able to do 3 celestial essence at once, being able to imbue 5 gems at once, being able to do 4 vegetable oils at once, these are the kind of streamline things that has made tradeskilling less burdensome to people. Like, if I want to make kaladim constitutionals, its clicking the soda water that sucks now, the CEs I don't even bother looking to buy in the bazaar anymore.

But changes for the sake of convenience that involve taking away realism, taking away the core of the tradeskill system as it exists in eq that makes it different from other games, I just cannot look at with any sense of happiness. I don't like eq2. I don't like wow. I play an 8 year old game because I am attached to my characters, my friends, and I enjoy the gameplay.

I am all for improvements, and I'm sure I could come up with a ton of suggestions for making things easier, or more fun, or less annoying or whatever, but I just don't like this idea as presented. Its just one opinion, but its how I feel.

I totally second this, it is what I tried to convey too in my two posts above this one. Everquest still has a great RPG-feel to it, realism, some manual "labor", UI and Inventory-management are all aspects of this.

A great example would be how we learn spells in EQ: you have to browse a vendor first, buying the right ones, which take up space in your Inventory. The scrolls look good. Then sit down and look at a nice Spellbook, where you have to scribe the spells: the speed of scribing is even dependant on your channeling skill(though this has been "convenienized" to a large extent). You will see a new Spell icon appear in your book. After this you have to memorize them in your spellbar which also takes some time.

Compare this involved proces with how you "learn" new spells in WoW or Vanguard. Just look up the new highlighted abilities that have become available on some pop-up screen at your trainer and click away........not only is this no fun, but it is also streamlined in a way that your Paladin will never be able to "browse" the abilities of a Druid, since "You are not the right Class to use this trainer"......while in EQ I loved to check out the spells from other classes vendors.

Options, freedom, abundance, all parts of a good Virtual World. It is by far the biggest strength of EQ imo.

[Kcalehc]

I'm not sure if this could be done, but how about if you could 'learn recipes' from a simple dialogue with a NPC? You ask them the right questions and they tell you how to make it, sort of like a character flag, but gives you the recipe. For simple things like silk swatches etc... this would make them both free to learn and incredibly easy.

Just a thought anyway.

Overall I'm not sure I'm too keen on the idea. Just hope that if it is done recipes are not as hard to come by as the required components - as I often combine things that I myself could not possibly come by.

A recipe book, similar to the Spell Book would be an excellent idea, following on from Treesongs thoughts above. Allowing us to put the recipes in pages where we can read the components and somehow transfer the recipe to the container to do the work. (also I like the idea of each combine taking a length of time, like spells do to scribe - mainly because I find it hard to believe that I can hammer out an ogre sized breastplate in under 2 seconds!!)

[Ngreth Thergn]

I don't like the lack of RPGish feel to it. Want to tailor something, you use a sewing kit or a loom. Want to blacksmith, use a forge, etc. Having a tradeskill container where you can do it all doesn't seem interesting at all. Basically, I feel this kind of idea takes away something, maybe something intangible, maybe not, but it takes away *something* from the gaming experience and makes it more like programming to me.

I think the "annoyance" or whatever of some things are very overblown. I remember doing blacksmithing when ore didn't stack, I had to load up in highhold pass then walk all the way back to qeynos, uphill barefoot etc. I am definitely not against making some things easier and less burdensome, but I think it needs to be done in certain ways.

For example, rather than taking away swatches as an unnecessary step, just add more "mass" combines. Being able to do 3 celestial essence at once, being able to imbue 5 gems at once, being able to do 4 vegetable oils at once, these are the kind of streamline things that has made tradeskilling less burdensome to people. Like, if I want to make kaladim constitutionals, its clicking the soda water that sucks now, the CEs I don't even bother looking to buy in the bazaar anymore.

But changes for the sake of convenience that involve taking away realism, taking away the core of the tradeskill system as it exists in eq that makes it different from other games, I just cannot look at with any sense of happiness. I don't like eq2. I don't like wow. I play an 8 year old game because I am attached to my characters, my friends, and I enjoy the gameplay.

I am all for improvements, and I'm sure I could come up with a ton of suggestions for making things easier, or more fun, or less annoying or whatever, but I just don't like this idea as presented. Its just one opinion, but its how I feel.

Oh then you misunderstand, or are interpreting something differently than I.

You would still have a "Sewing Kit" it just would not "open into a container" It would still be needed to make a combine. It would still be what you click on, as if it was a container, to open the tradeskill interface. The interface would still say "sewing kit" at the top (or whatever the name of the container is) So in practice it would be no different than the current "right click" to do tradeskills that you do now. It would just no longer have the ctrl-right-click to open to a "bag." And it will happen to now fit in other bags.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I'm not sure if this could be done, but how about if you could 'learn recipes' from a simple dialogue with a NPC? You ask them the right questions and they tell you how to make it, sort of like a character flag, but gives you the recipe. For simple things like silk swatches etc... this would make them both free to learn and incredibly easy.

I can. Anyplace a script can be hooked in and it can reference a player I can make a player learn recipes.

In all silliness I could have you learn recipes for zoning into a zone, or have you learn a recipe for gaining agro on an NPC.

[KyrosKrane]

In all silliness I could have you learn recipes for zoning into a zone, or have you learn a recipe for gaining agro on an NPC.

Now THAT just begs to be made into an April Fool's recipe. If you are an alchemist of skill 300, and you get a train of at least 30 hostile white-con-or-higher mobs chasing you, you are struck by inspiration on how to create a faster SoW potion to outrun the mobs! =)

[Abazagaroth]

Oh then you misunderstand, or are interpreting something differently than I.

You would still have a "Sewing Kit" it just would not "open into a container" It would still be needed to make a combine. It would still be what you click on, as if it was a container, to open the tradeskill interface. The interface would still say "sewing kit" at the top (or whatever the name of the container is) So in practice it would be no different than the current "right click" to do tradeskills that you do now. It would just no longer have the ctrl-right-click to open to a "bag." And it will happen to now fit in other bags.

Ok, that is a somewhat different scenario. One problem with that is you lose a little bank space (having a couple bags dedicated to various combine containers rather than using those containers as bags themselves) but its not a big deal. I'm not sure how I misunderstood the idea as presented so badly.

However, I still dislike the inability to experiment and the need to hunt down books or having a task based system. I'm sure some people would love it. Different strokes and such, but I don't really like the idea.