How to Negotiate in the Marketplace?

[Xenephex]

I have nothing to say about out of game sales other than it is wrong.

I spend a lot of time in the bazaar and so I'll chime in with my observations.

To the original poster: it is very difficult to understand some of the mechanics of the EQ economy without having a fair amount of knowledge about game-play. I'm not going to try to explain all of that here, but am going to assume that knowledge. You can ask questions about it if you wish.

To a large extent, the in-game economy operates much like any economy - simple supply and demand. Demand being the desirability of the item and supply being both the existing supply and the rate at which new instances come into the market. Both ends of that can severely affect the price of an item.

For example, there is an item called Shroud of the Fallen Defender, which is just an extremely good item for certain classes in the game. It is 'worth' in my estimation 20K plat or more just based on its desirability. But there is an extremely large supply of them, so they often sell for 1K or less in the bazaar. The Greatstaff of Thunder is another melee item which is just incredibly common. Almost every warrior I know has had one at one point or another and they are worth many many times the 300 plat or so that they sell for commonly in the bazaar.

However, the EQ economy also has a few fairly unique elements that make it different. One of those is re-sellability; another is level restrictions. A relatively recent addition to EQ is the introduction of items that can be bought and sold, but cannot be re-sold after they are used. In EQ, those are called attuneable items. That factor depreciates the price of an item considerably. Older (and many current) items could be bought, used, and then re-sold after use. There is no depreciation, and generally the items will retain their original price. So in this case the cost of buying an item is merely abandoning the use of the plat required to get for however long you have it.

Re-sellability, I believe, also has its own unique influence on the price of items. I firmly believe that many items are no longer tied to their perceived value as a game item, but rather are tied to the perceived traditional price of the item. If everyone on the server is convinced that you can always sell a Fungus Covered Scale Tunic for 75K, then it will continue to be priced more or less in that range most of the time, because those are items that people buy, use, and then re-sell with some frequency.

Level restrictions is also a huge factor in the price of an item. Again, many older items had no level restrictions, while most new ones do. Essentially the value of non-level restricted items is that they can be given to much lower level characters, and thus have an increased benefit for those characters because they may be relatively over-powered for their level. Really good items of this kind are often among the most valued items in the economy and are bought and sold regularly, often at relatively high prices.

An additional unique factor in the EQ economy is the presence of significant numbers of high level players with very large sums of plat - more than they really know what to do with. This tends to drive the price of rare but highly valued items through the roof. If a player with 6 million plat in the bank (and not much to spend it on) really, really wants an item priced at 500K, they may just go ahead and buy it without really worrying about the price. This tends to keep certain rare items priced extremely high.

Another big mitigating factor is when an item is essentially the very best sellable item of its type. I am thinking of GM cultural armor as an example. As long as these items remain essentially the 'best that money can buy' they will continue to have an extremely high price. As soon as something else appears that is better, typically the prices will begin to drop and drop steadily over time until they are only a fraction of their original selling price. Even though they are just as good as they were, losing first place can have an unusually large impact.

For some types of items, the response on the supply end can be very rapid. If the price of a certain kind of item starts to escalate, more people may well stop what they are doing to go acquire and sell that item by 'farming' it in certain zones or making it through tradeskills. Once there are lots and lots of them for sale, though, people will stop farming or making them very quickly.

And lastly, I would argue that there is a significant element of irrationality in the prices of many in-game items. The market is often slow to respond to changes in either supply or demand; as noted above, for relatively common items, a sudden increase in the number of items for sale at the 'old' price may produce a moderately swift reduction, but for somewhat less common items, prices may not adjust realistically for a long time - if at all. Sometimes the perception of traditional pricing can out-weigh any realities of the market, to a point of permanence in some cases.

[Brickhaus]

I'm a law student (never played an on-line game)...I find it fascinating how much buying and selling goes on in the virtual world.

If you find it so facinating, why don't you at least try an on-line game? The barriers to entry for playing Everquest or any of its competitors have never been lower or require so little money upfront.

It seems to me that you are trolling for the information for a paper for school or some research project somewhere. My fellow players have been very kind to give their opinions and do a lot of leg work for you but you have only more questions. Perhaps it's time to log into a game and find out what it's all about. I would really prefer not to have to read another article about someone's fascination with online game marketplaces from an author who has never actually played.

I really think this topic needs to be move out of the GTSD and to OOC Chat.

Brickhaus "the grumpy"

As an aside, why are people so surprised about online marketplaces and what occurs (especially about valuations)? We are all people and when people interact, trade transactions occur. Nothing new or groundbreaking here. What I'd like someone to study is why people will stop talking to someone in person to answer a cell phone call...

[Lothay]

I'm opening this thread for discussion.

Please do not link directly to or name exploits/cheats/hacks/resellers.

As long as the discussion remains discussion and not demonstration of EULA violations, it can stay.

[Bobaten]

While at first glance you would think attuneable items would have a reduced price, they actually tend to be worth more, because they do not suffer from market saturation as much as non-attuneable items (like Shroud of the Fallen Defender). This has been beneficial to tradeskillers as it is much better to produce a consumbable than a permanent item that may re-enter the market a few months later and compete with you.

[KyrosKrane]

Yes and no about attunable items. In the long run, it leads to higher prices for those items -- meaning that an attunable item keeps its value over time on the market. If you make an attunable item worth 10Kpp today, it will likely still be worth 10Kpp if you make another in a few months. With a non-attunable item, the person you sold it to might be done with it, and you'd have to compete with that person to sell your item. You'd effectively be forced to compete with those who were your own customers, causing the price to drop.

On the other hand, a tradable item has a higher initial value; there's an implied promise that the buyer can resell it later to recoup some of the cost, which gives them some wiggle room to pay more initially. Over time, though, as more and more of the tradable item enter the market, the price inevitably drops.

My observation has been that a "new" (read, item currently in demand because it was recently introduced to the game) attunable item will cost less than a "new" tradable item that is comparable, whereas an "old" (read, item from a couple of expansions ago) attunable item is worth more than an "old" tradable item.

[Zacatac]

With a non-attunable item, the person you sold it to might be done with it, and you'd have to compete with that person to sell your item.

Ever since the BD cultural items were created, I was making those armors. And for a long time, I was the only high elf smith high enough to do so. So I had little competition, and could barely keep up with demand. I some customers farming stacks of blue diamonds for me to trade for getting armor done.

But, during the years later I would see some other people selling a piece here and there. And if I saw somebody selling at a price so low that I knew it was less than what I could make it for, I'd just go over and buy theirs and add it to my stock.

It's about the only time I've done "resale", when it was to protect myself and my product from somebody simply "dumping" a used item at less than cost.

EQ2 has a system where the item created tells you who made it. I'd be curious to know just how much of the High Elf blessed/full mithril armor on my server is mine

[Baldary]

There is a group of people who do nothing but "resales" to make their money. This is a person who buys up items at a lower price and then raises the price to sell it again. They do this and it basically creates profit for doing nothing but "speculation" on items.

Many people will get to know and avoid these re-sellers by the simple fact they charge more for items than you might find elsewhere if you are willing to wait. Some of these resellers get very agressive however, and they will buy up lower items and add them to their stock, rather than letting somebody undercut them.

However, resellers are not necessarily high profile. I would venture to say that most are not. Back when I was really active in the "Bazaar Game" I tended to buy low and sell high. I developed an expertize in one market segment and really knew the going rate for those items. When I saw something significantly underpriced, I would buy it and mark it up for sale. But my listed price for the item would still be amongh the lowest for that item. I would not buy anything where I would not get a significant return for my platinum. To my knowledge, I never had the reputation of being a gouging reseller though.


The other thing you need to understand about the EQ economy is mudflation. With new expansions continually coming into the game, there there are better and better items coming in also. Yes, most of the these better items are No Trade or Attunable, but that does create downward pressure on the prices of older items in the game that are not.

Baldary

[LawStudent]

I first became interested in this issue when I attended the American Intellectual Property Law Association's Mid-Winter meeting this February, the subject of which was on-line games. Speakers from the game world included Brian Green "aka Psycho Child," Bruce Boston, Andy Zaffron and Greg Boyd. One issue that was raised at this meeting is who owns the rights to virtual property? With so much time, effort, and actual money put into the development and acquisition of virtual goods, do you every factor into the selling price or think about the fact that the game developer could one day decide that the game is no longer going to be available, thereby shutting down access to so much of what is essentially your property? Thanks again to all who have shared so much helpful information with me.

[MedailMeadmezzer-eci]

One issue that was raised at this meeting is who owns the rights to virtual property?

well in theroy the person paying for the account would "own" the rights to virtual property. I use "own" in quotes because well its virtual, there is no true way for it to be tangable other than in the game. However, one must also note that the make of the game (SOE in this case) is the true "owner" of everything in the world. With this in mind, the virtual property is almost like an apartment.
I would assume that the same genral princaple of renting an apartment would be brought into this, since it is the same basic princable. You (the player/renter) entered a contract to essentaly rent out a space and basicaly live, work and play in that world. the base space is the apartment owners (SOE) but everything that one brings into the "apartment space" is the person who is curently renting that space. "apartment space" in this deffention would basicaly be the 8 slots you get to use as spaces to store your char's.
Now the question then becomes: How does one furnish(equip) there respective "apartment space"(char[s]), and do you truely own what you put into the "apartment" from the market avilable. Which then gets into the entire Market and Blackmarket obtainable items. Market item being ones purely bought in game with ingame, Blackmarket being items that you obtain by bending or breaking the contract that you signed, and contuinal sign, when one enters the apartment.

With so much time, effort, and actual money put into the development and acquisition of virtual goods, do you every factor into the selling price or think about the fact that the game developer could one day decide that the game is no longer going to be available, thereby shutting down access to so much of what is essentially your property?

once again this can be looked at from two points of view. ingame, or Real life (RL) to ingame. Im 100% sure that EVERY ONE who has sold an item in the game asked themselfs what they value the item at for there time and effort. IE AAAAs which are highly sought after on most servers. this item is a consumable item which one person can use once, then it poofs (think of it kinda like gas for a car). it takes a long time to find the components to make this item and assemble it, and one must have the proper abitly to obtain the items to assemble it. for gas it would be the finding of a suffecently large crude oil well, and the steps used to turn that into your gas. With the finished product, the maker can either use it, give it away, or sell it. If the maker of the item thinks that they can make a better profit from useing it themselfs, they do, likewise with giving it away (PR with other people/companys). With selling it, the maker must decide how much they want to sell it for, which is based around the cost of how much they paided for it. now you ask if we consider the cost of "renting the apartment" into our selling price; im sure that if people are engaging in blackmarket economy then yes, they contunaly think of how much they can profit from that. Otherwise there is no real way to deal with that type of situation.

genraly it all boils down to the principles of complex economics, particualy, if one person thinks that it will be profitable for them to continue, they will. If it is unprofitable then they will stop, untill it become profitable again.

[Ysall]

One of the most interesting aspects of the game, and its correspondence to a free-market economy, is the concept of the EQ entrepreneur. Being a good entrepreneur is all about finding a niche, a product or service for which there is limited supply, and a strong market. Once you find such a niche, you exploit it for as long as you can. However, over time, others see your niche, enter the market, and then the market profits decrease to the point where the return on your investment (i.e. your game time), is not longer sufficient, and you move onto your next niche.

EQ is spectacularly good at providing niches for people to occupy and make a profit. It may be in the form of a rare mob, in a tough zone that few people camp, but has high value loot., or a foaraged item much in demand by tradeskillers. If you are the only person pharming it, then you have your niche, and can make nice profits. Of course, others then see your niche, and move in, and suddenly you have competition. Eventually, it wont be worth your while because the product will be so well pharmed, increased supply means the market price drops to low for it to be worth your while.


Tradeskills, the manufacturing wing of EQ, are exactly the same. There are ten tradeskills, and even people like me, who are max skill in almost all those tradeskills, usually are only active in one or two of them at a given time. We have our favoured products we make, and so long as they make a decent profit, we stick with them, until such time as the profit falls, and its time to move on.

EQ has thousands of such niches, and hundreds of markets. There are the class market, items prefered by a certain class, the tradeskills market, with those who supply raw materials to the tradeskillers, and those who convert them to finished products. There are also black-markets. Those who sell plat, items, or power-leveling services for RL cash.

Every server has their equivalent of a Fortune 100 list (although its probably the Furtune 10 list). These are the people who are spectacularly good at acquiring plat, the entrepreneurs. And then there are the vast majority, who simply can’t understand how they do it.

On these boards, you will probably find the largest collection of entrepreneurs in the game, because although we love our tradeskills to pieces, you don’t get good at them unless you can fund them in the first place. Anyone who makes it to the top of the tradeskill tree is inherently either plat rich, or exceptionally time rich, and its mostly the former.

[Quichon]

I first became interested in this issue when I attended the American Intellectual Property Law Association's Mid-Winter meeting this February, the subject of which was on-line games. Speakers from the game world included Brian Green "aka Psycho Child," Bruce Boston, Andy Zaffron and Greg Boyd. One issue that was raised at this meeting is who owns the rights to virtual property? With so much time, effort, and actual money put into the development and acquisition of virtual goods, do you every factor into the selling price or think about the fact that the game developer could one day decide that the game is no longer going to be available, thereby shutting down access to so much of what is essentially your property? Thanks again to all who have shared so much helpful information with me.

Legally, the virtual goods in a MMPORG (usually referred to as 'in game items') are the intellectual property of the company who owns the MMPORG, and the membership fee (usually a monthly fee) is merely a licensing fee which allows that user to interact with the intellectual property of the company which is the game and all content therein. Read your End User License agreement (EULA) again. The developers create the items, who are hired by SoE to create those items. Players do not 'create' anything unique in the game, they simply utilize the game to obtain items by sacrificing other items. Creating a Class 1 wooden tip arrow (large nock) does not make it that player's intellectual property just because he hit the combine button any more than making the BFG-9000 the intellectual property of a player who found that item in DOOM. It was already created in the game by the developers for the players to find.

This is one of the reasons why SoE is so upset with certain third-parties whom make real money buying and selling virtual goods which are the intellectual property of SoE. It also specifically states in the EULA that this liscencse is non-transferrable, so the buying and selling of accounts is also prohibited.

Think of it as a ticket to a ball game. You buy a season pass to see X games. You go to the games to enjoy watching them and interacting with your friends there. At the end of the season, you are left with no tangible results for your expenditure of money and effort and time. Yet no one thinks this is 'cheating' them of anything. EQ, or any other MMPORG, is identical in this reguard. You buy your tickets (i.e. your membership) to play for the duration of your membership. Eventually the game ends and you are left with no tangible results for your playing.

Edit: Allow me to clarify something:
A player does not have the legal right to sell the account information or any in game item to another person for in game cash. The in game item is the intellectual property of SoE and the license is specifically non-transferrable. According to the state and federal laws, selling something which is not yours to rightfully sell is considered Fraud and is illegal and prosecutable by law. Certain third-parties whom commit fraud in this manner avoid this by basing themselves outside of the U.S.A. borders and take advantage of the difficulty of prosecuting across such juristictional boundaries. This does not make the act any less criminal. To fraudulently sell or recieve property known to be fraudulently obtained is a crime which SoE prosecutes whenever they can get enough evidence to ensure a conviction without impinging on the civil liberties and constitutional rights of the individual. If your question is 'does the fact that this game may end affect the real dollar price you sell virtual goods which are the intellectual property of SoE', then you are, in effect, asking people to admit to a crime on a public forum which can be subponeaed and used as evidence in a court of law. I would suggest you re-clarify your question and state specifically if you were referring to the in-game virtual economy sales or the sale of virtual goods for real cash.

[tuis]

But I'm not selling plat...I'm seeking compensation for the time it took to collect it~

[Quichon]

But I'm not selling plat...I'm seeking compensation for the time it took to collect it~

The only compensation you get for the time you spend on Everquest is the enjoyment you get from playing the game. If you don't find the game enjoyable, perhaps you need to play something else.

[Sylphan]

Quichon seems to have explained it well why SoE (and most other game companies) don't want people selling 'their' virtual property. In EQ and similar games, all the stuff is created by SoE, players don't really make anything, it isn't really theirs to sell. I also like the analogy... selling stuff in EQ might be analogous to scalping tickets (which is not legal).

Players of these games, and the folks running this message board, have other objections as well.

LawStudent, if you're really interested in virtual economies, I suggest you look at Second Life. You can get a basic Second Life account for free (yes, free) to see how the game plays, if you like.

Second Life has a vibrant economy, complete with currency exchanges, player-run investment banks, land barons, and other good (or evil) stuff, almost all run by enterprising players, and encouraged and accepted by the company running it (Linden Labs). Linden Labs actually hired an economist to help them understand and manage the economy and the money supply, much like the feds do in the real world. Almost all of the content is designed, created, and sold by the players, and they retain their intillectual rights to what they make. A few of the best products developed there have been sold in the real world as well -- by the players.

Second Life is a wide-open frontier-type economy with few laws beyond the facts of how the game functions. But there is politics, special interests, vigilante groups, and much discussion and interest in how/when to apply laws and justice, so it's starting to develop. The kind of questions you ask are welcome in the economy forums there.

[Centuri]

With so much time, effort, and actual money put into the development and acquisition of virtual goods, do you every factor into the selling price or think about the fact that the game developer could one day decide that the game is no longer going to be available, thereby shutting down access to so much of what is essentially your property? Thanks again to all who have shared so much helpful information with me.

There's a lot of comments/questions in this thread I could reply to but I think I'll pick this one.

Actually, I did think about it. Once. I decided at that point that I am playing $12 a month to play a continually-available (except when it's down for patches) game. Games end. Period. There will be a day when either I get bored with playing it or the game is no longer available. Do I expect to get anything out of it after that point? No. Just the memories and the accumulation of friends, some who have transferred to the Real World.
Everything that I have in-game is no more real or transferrable to the real world than the properties on a monopoly board. (Don't spout ebay at me please, I know it's there, this is MY viewpoint and part of how I keep the game a game.)
EQ is recreational. EQ is fun.
If I started playing merely to farm the heck out of it for out-of-game profit it wouldn't be fun anymore.
Strangely enough, that also applies to my tradeskilling.
I would much rather do a whole bunch of combines for a friend than sell the item in the bazaar for the plat.
Although, I do manage to sell enough things in the bazaar to offset the cost of my tradeskilling obsession, I usually don't seek out recipies for the sole purpose of selling the items in the bazaar. They'll either be something I'm using to raise my skill level or something I just happened to have the components for. It's actually far more profitable to supply components for skillups than end-result tradeskill items. With the exception of high-demand items.

The barter system is still alive and well in EQ as well.
Take Celestial Essences for example. It costs a bit less that 2.5 plat to make the things but they are often sold for 5 to 7 plat each to people making Mistletoe Cutting Sickels.(takes 9 of them per combine and it's a popular skillup path for smithing)
While I was doing my smithing run I would often offer 100pp per stack of them -or- 1 sickel.
The sickels themselves have a tribute value of 1230 points. However, since it's a popular skillup path and the market is usually flooded with them (on my server at least) the sickles usually sell slowly at 300pp or less in the bazaar.
They don't stack either so they take up a lot of bank space and once you've maxed out your tribute and filled up 2 or 3 alts with the things, what are you gonna do with them?

I swear I have learned more about Economics and the principals of supply and demand playing Everquest than I ever learned in my High School Economics course.