How to Negotiate in the Marketplace?

[ppatti]

I'm a law student (never played an on-line game) researching how gamers negotiate the virtual sale of goods. How do you determine how to value something? Is there an established price for most goods or is there room to negotiate? Do you have a preference for negotiating with certain players over others? How do gamers enforce truthful and fair negotiating? What do you do if you negotiate for the purchase of a good and then the seller never delivers? Is negotiating the sale of a virtual good the same as negotiating the sale of goods or services in the real world? How much money do you spend a month on virtual goods?

Any information you can provide me with is much appreciated. I find it fascinating how much buying and selling goes on in the virtual world.

First, I adhere to a certain code of conduct. If you stay within this code, my mood to negotiate with you remains high. Cross the wrong line and I'll clam up my best offers and perhaps freeze you out of any deal entirely.

1) Don't auction, shout, or say in market channel that you WTB or WTS unless you have a firm starting price. If I ask you "how much" and you reply "make an offer", I will probably not speak to you again. In my opinion, whomever is advertising should set the first price.

Perhaps if I put this into real life terms...Imagine going to a car lot and looking at models. Now imagine every time you ask "how much", the dealer replies "what you are willing to pay monthly". Or when you decide to trade in your old car and ask how much you'll get, the saleman turns around and asks you how much you think its worth.

In summary, if you are the one advertising, you should already know what price range you are willing to negotiate in. If you can't manage that, then perhaps you should wait until you do.

2) Don't let me catch you selling an item twice. By this I mean, don't agree to my price, ask me to wait a few minutes, and then change your mind because you found someone willing to pay more (Perhaps this should be #1 but it very rarely happens).

3) Don't let me catch you in a silent auction. By this I mean, don't agree to my price and then ask me to wait while you consider other offers. This includes trying to raise the price on me after we have agreed on price (raising against my own bid).

4) Be truthful in advertising. More than once, I've made a mistake and gave a wrong sell price. Although I was taking a loss, I had agreed to that price and I honored it anyways. I fully expect others to do the same. If they do not, I consider them unreliable and untruthful. I make a point not to do business with either.

[tuis]

Another thing that will affect price is the type of server. On a (heh, the) PvP server, instant click items are in high demand and prices reflect this. Amulets of Necropotence for example - Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring, Coldain Ring MQ's (could fall under 'services'). With DoDH's resist click tasks I decided it was time to ditch my AoN, so I put it on my trader for 500k figuring *someone* out there would want it bad enough (typically they run 275-325k on Zek). Eventually I dropped the price to 450k and someone bought it.

When I advertise that my trader is up and WTS a load of items, my prices are set and that's pretty much that. My trader's AFK message is typically "Try /bazaar". It boggles me how many people ignore this wonderful tool SOE added. I don't change my prices unless I notice an item has been there forever...never know when my trader will be the only one with that item and someone just happens to need it. My buyer works pretty much the same way - I don't actively monitor my buy lines unless I really need a particular item, though I still have an absolute ceiling on items, especially when the cost of a tradeskill component is approaching the price of the finished item (for instance I won't ever pay more than 30k for metallic drake scales, glossy drake hides, etc)

It was a real PITA to trade efficiently on Tallon Zek before the introduction of PvP-free zones because there was a +/-8 level PvP range and everyone was a potential target - none of this first 5 levels free jazz. The 'light' team's trade was handled either in High Hold Keep or Greater Faydark, the darks in Neriak. Crossteam trading was frowned upon, but not unheard of, though, with each side gouging the other for items - made dicier when there was item loot, lol.

[LawStudent]

Do any of you purchase goods on on-line sites devoted to selling goods? Do you know how the proprieters of these sites determine a price and are they fair compared to what a player can get bargaining with another player directly? Are there particular sites that you prefer? Furthermore, when you buy and sell a good to someone outside of the game (i.e. eBay), do you think in terms of U.S. dollars or EQ money?

[Elyssanda]

I won't no. no , no, and no. most people who think of themselves as ethical won't.

...
However, that being said... there is a thriving business of it.. just don't ask about it here.. we ban any reference to those sites.

[mewkus]

As mentioned above, buying or selling EQ items for real dollars is frowned upon. As such, you prolly wont find much response about it here. While I relizes it goes on, I just view people who do that as people who aren't playing the game (but rather they're working just like any other job). I don't play EQ to make me feel like I'm working.

If you really want to find out about stuff like that, you might want to check into those particular sites that cater to stuff like that. In fact stuff like that's such a no no that the ads on this site are (for the most part) prescreened to prevent google from including them on here. There are several other fan sites that do include ads for ebay type sites and I know lots of players will not even bother visiting those sites since they've 'sold out'.

[KyrosKrane]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned my method of pricing yet. I wouldn't have thought it to be uncommon.

I operate my tradeskilling work like a business. I have to acquire supplies, which requires either money (buying from other players), time (collecting the supplies myself), or both. The items also have a set chance to succeed, based on my skills and abilities -- this is analagous to the reject rate at a commercial factory; some items will be rejected and destroyed for poor quality. Using these factors, I calculate my adjusted cost to make the item.

Then, I have a set profit margin that I seek for items. This ranges from 20% for easy or common stuff to 100% for extremely hard stuff. If it's something that I can just stick on a trader and sell, that lowers my desired return. On the other hand, if it's something I spend a lot of time on, such as chatting with the customer to get it "just right" or explaining how the items are made in detail, I tend to want a higher return for my time. I also consider the competition's prices when setting my own rate of return.

I also consider the tendency of people to haggle and request discounts for various reasons, so I usually build some wiggle room into my prices. If a person buys multiple pieces at once, I'll usually lop 5%-10% off. If it's an item that's sat on my trader for ages without selling, I'm also more inclined to haggle -- if I can get rid of that item, I can use that space to sell something that moves quicker.

I multiply my adjusted cost by my profit factor to get my selling price. If no one is willing to buy at that price, then I simply won't make it. My time is precious enough that there has to be some really exceptional circumstances for me to go down on my price. Having said that, I do have special pricing for friends and guildmates. Depending on how well I like the person, I might do the combine at cost, at a much smaller profit margin, or even for free.

[Cloud]

I don't personally buy or sell for real life money but unlike most people on this site it doesn't bother me and i don't frown on it. I know of many people who have bought / sold accounts and plat and made a pretty good living at it. (some close to 10k US dollars a month doing )

I think the main reason most frown on it is because you will get people playing with high end chara and they don't know what they are doing. I think as long as the person buying hte account has been playing long enough and can play the account it is fine. I also don't have a problem with people buying / selling plat because it will only get you so far in the game before it becomes worthless to you. Another reason i think some frown on it is because alot of the people who are selling plat use hack programs such as [hack name removed] which auto run the chara while the owner is not there. As others have stated its also against the rules and can get you ban.

I have played the game as casual and high end raider and I take the stand that if someone wants to hack or try to make real $$ off playing the game then they are free to try. I don't think rules should be changed to allow them but everyone i know of who uses program such as [hack name removed] to warp and auto run chara knows the risk and are willing to make it. I know alot who do it for fun just because they can and don't use it as an advange when playing the game.

[Zacatac]

Thanks to everyone who has responded, I really appreciate all of your insight. Do most people favor using the bazzar where there are fixed prices (thereby avoiding negotiating all together) or do most people tend to try to negotiate a price with other players.

I'll respond to this one.

The vast majority of my sales come from tradeskill made goods. These are items which I've spent a LOT of time creating, gaining the necessary skill to be able to create them, gathering and buying ingredients from people in the bazaar to create them, etc. etc.

Therefore, when the final results of my goods come to market, it normally will include many factors.

1. Cost of ingredients that I buy to create item
2. Skill necessary to create item
3. Time necessary to create item
4. Rare items needed to create item

Unlike other items in the game where you simply looted it off a mob while hunting for "free", my items and prices are often "fixed" in the bazaar and I won't sell for less and lose money.

If somebody comes along and undercuts me, I might price down to match, but only if it isn't putting me into taking a loss on the items. But I'm normally very fair with my pricing, and I do dozens of sales every month.

In addition, have certain sellers and buyers devloped a positive or negative reputation based on the prices and quality of the virtual goods they sell? (Have you ever heard of someone over charging for something and that having an effect on the willingness of future buyers to work with them)?

There is a group of people who do nothing but "resales" to make their money. This is a person who buys up items at a lower price and then raises the price to sell it again. They do this and it basically creates profit for doing nothing but "speculation" on items.

Many people will get to know and avoid these re-sellers by the simple fact they charge more for items than you might find elsewhere if you are willing to wait. Some of these resellers get very agressive however, and they will buy up lower items and add them to their stock, rather than letting somebody undercut them.

I once had somebody buy my tradeskill made items, then double the price for resale. I found that rather amusing because I had the ingredients to make more already stocked, and simply replaced them again within 24 hours at a price which was still half of what he wanted. For all I know, he is still trying to sell his overpriced one, while people come to me to "buy direct".

[Cloud]

Resellers do tend to get a bad rep on servers, but at the same time this rep can help them because many people like myself who don't have alot of use for plat will sell them items at 50-75% of the bazaar value so we don't have to spend time trying to sell items that are not worth the effort (aka items under 25-50k, most anything over that i will sell myself for full)

[Cantatus]

Guys, discussing of exploits and real item trading is not permitted on these boards.

If you want to discuss things in terms of the in-game economy, go ahead, but any further discussion in regards to things that break EverQuest's EULA will get this thread locked.

Thanks,
Cantatus

[GrimwoodCT]

Another issue is blackballing individuals or members of a group.

In real life the ACLU will arrive and bury you in a pile of paper but in online gaming it is less problematic.

Just as the US will not trade with Cuba or grants China Favored Nation status, so goes the favoritism in EQ.

Certain guilds have a less than savory reputation. I don't deal with them for services nor will I sell to them if I can help it. I'll go as far as tell them that because they belong to a certain group they are persona non grata.

In the end I think that if you have a good reputation, aren't hiding behind and alias and affiliate yourself with noble, upstanding people you will get a deal. If not, its just not gonna happen or it will cost you an arm and a leg.

[LawStudent]

What percentage of EQ players do you estimate have bought or sold a virtual good? How often? Once a month? A week? Once a year? What is the most that any of you have paid for a good?

Thanks again to all of you who have posted replies, I really appreciate it and encourage you to keep sending me your thoughts and opinions on this topic. I find it so interesting!

[KyrosKrane]

If you mean within the game world for virtual money (i.e., buying an item for platinum), I'd say that 100% of players have bought something from or sold something to a non-player vendor -- selling items to vendors is one of the primary methods by which platinum enters the game world. This sort of thing happens daily, usually several times a day.

I'd also guess that at least 90% of players have bought or sold an item to another player. (The remaining 10% would be the newest players who played briefly, didn't see much interaction, and probably quit.) The frequency with which this happens varies, depending on what is being exchanged. Some people make an in-game career out of farming (collecting) items or supplies and reselling them to other players. Other people refuse to enter the bazaar, claiming they only want items that they have earned themselves, not items they can buy.

The game world is designed in such a way as to promote interaction between players. Some items can only be made by players of a certain race or class. Other items can only be obtained by high level players, but are more useful to lower level players. On the flip side, some items are best collected by lower level players who gain other benefits (such as experience) from the farming, then sold to higher level players who use it in tradeskills.

[Gaell Stormracer]

Cantatus -- there's a distinction between discussing such things and actuallly conducting sales for cash and the like. We're all aware that the latter is forbidden by SOE's terms of use, and by custom within the game, but it seems excessively foolish to pretend that it doesn't happen, and to discuss why we consider it wrong is surely not the same thing at all?

For example, there is (or was) at least 1 person (or small group of individuals) on Antonius Bayle that used to routinely sell the rights to certain high end items -- Qvic armour drops, and MPG trial drops being the most prominent -- for very large amounts of in-game platinum. Typically, they can 'race' any given group of individual players to non-instanced content. There is no real likelihood that this person or persons were using the in-game money to buy in-game goods -- it is most likely that they were selling the in-game platinum to one of the companies that act as brokers for this. (I need not name names, anyone interested can just type Everquest Platinum into a search engine to see them all).

Now, in my view, this is a fairly cunning (if personally repugnant) process; people within the game who do not have the in-game resources to obtain these items desire them, and if they are capable of scraping together the necessary game money, they will pay the 'procurer' with their hard-earned in-game money. Alternatively, if they do not have the inclination or the ability to muster that amount of in-game cash, they may be tempted into buying in-game money from the very same companies to whom the procurer sells the in-game money. Thus, the procurer both creates and supplies the demand...

[Zacatac]

What percentage of EQ players do you estimate have bought or sold a virtual good? How often? Once a month? A week? Once a year? What is the most that any of you have paid for a good?

Again, assuming you mean in-game transactions for in-game money. . .

As mentioned before, EQ has a "bazaar" area. This is a special zone where you can set up a buyer or a seller character and leave them there online, without any need for you to monitor the transaction. They are set-up so any player can simply click on your character and complete the transaction automatically.

I leave my trader character online all the time, as I have cable modem that is constantly on. So I might actively play EQ for 2 hours a day, but I'll be in trader mode 22 hours a day. So the answer to the question of buying/selling goods is "everyday".