Failing very trivial combines

[Aavar]

Been making Blessed Dust of Tunare trivial level 103

pottery skill of 315 with GM potte sculpter

have been failing about 1 to 4 combines per 200

so i think the check for no fail is based on your base skill and not on modified skill

[Sophie]

I have been failing a LOT more than normal since last patch even with JCM 3 (296 w/mod) and Blacksmithing Mastery 3 (315 w/mod).

[Ngreth Thergn]

so i think the check for no fail is based on your base skill and not on modified skill

Defenitely true

And... there is a minor bug somewhere that even "no fail" is just "very very very very rare failed" (I.E. you may still fail abou 1 time every 1000... something just glitches by, but the reports have been very rare.)

[Angelsyn]

Failed a Smithing combine the other day... 75 trivial on the combine. 269 unmodded skill, 290 with Hammer.

Hate failing on a Sheet of Molten Metal... the Tempers are expensive!

[Mitsune Foxfire]

I have started a thread about this problem in the Make Posion and later in the General Forum (for all tradeskills) after DoN was released. A couple of people reported failures for combines that should be no fail (trivial + 200 < skill). It seems the no fail check for those combines has been somehow broken by skills > 250. No official reply has been posted and for some reason I am not able to find my post either (using the board search feature).

[Tanker]

Thanx, THIS is what I wanted to look at Monday. I'll check the uber-trivial stuff when I get in (shouldn't be hard to see if something's wrong).

And, as said before, it's RAW skill for uber-trivial checks, not augmented.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

I have started a thread about this problem in the Make Posion and later in the General Forum (for all tradeskills) after DoN was released. A couple of people reported failures for combines that should be no fail (trivial + 200 < skill). It seems the no fail check for those combines has been somehow broken by skills > 250. No official reply has been posted and for some reason I am not able to find my post either (using the board search feature).

General Thread
Make Poison Thread

(can search for all posts by a user, or all posts started by a user, which is how I found those)

[Tanker]

Ok, I looked into the code, and it's working normally. The way it works:

- For normal recipe, min failure chance is 5%.
- For recipe where your skill (unmodified) is more than than the trivial, the min failure chance is reduce by 1% for every 40 points over the trivial your skill is. e.g. your skill = 250, recipe trivial is 100, diff = 150, 150/40 = 3 (almost 4, but not quite), so min failure chance is 2% (5-3). NOTE: this is an integer divide. It will only take off whole percentages... which is why this is 2% instead of 1.25%.
- This min failure chance can be overridden in data by the designer on a per recipe basis, replacing it with a higher value.

In reading through the threads mentioned, I couldn't find any specific example of someone saying they had an unmodified skill of 200+ greater than the trivial of a specific recipe, yet still got a failure. If this happens to you, please post what recipe and what skill you had (unmodified). Please be sure of your example; posts with "I think I had" or "I seem to remember one time I" don't receive the same credibility as "Yesterday I had this skill and tried this recipe and failed".

[edit: clarification]
[edit: explained the integer divide a bit]

[Rissenn]

so min failure chance is 2%

I have made Mistletoe temper and Blessed Dust of Tunare. I would guess I have made about..hmm..300 stacks or so of each since patch, and this sounds in line with my failure rates (300 in Brewing and Pottery).

I seem to fail about 1 in 30, maybe a tad above.

[Twistagain]

- This min failure chance can be overridden in data by the designer on a per recipe basis, replacing it with a higher value.

AHA!!! Confirmation at last! So...what's the min failure chance on the OoW augments? 30%?

[Taushar]

Ok, I looked into the code, and it's working normally. The way it works:

- For normal recipe, min failure chance is 5%.
- For recipe where your skill (unmodified) is more than than the trivial, the min failure chance is reduce by 1% for every 40 points over the trivial your skill is. e.g. your skill = 250, recipe trivial is 100, diff = 150, 150/40 = 3 (almost 4, but not quite), so min failure chance is 2% (5-3).
- This min failure chance can be overridden in data by the designer on a per recipe basis, replacing it with a higher value.

In reading through the threads mentioned, I couldn't find any specific example of someone saying they had an unmodified skill of 200+ greater than the trivial of a specific recipe, yet still got a failure. If this happens to you, please post what recipe and what skill you had (unmodified). Please be sure of your example; posts with "I think I had" or "I seem to remember one time I" don't receive the same credibility as "Yesterday I had this skill and tried this recipe and failed".

I can confirm that my last batch of Blessed Dust of Tunare, which is suppose to be 103 trivial, I have failed about 3 failures out of 60 combines. My unmodified skill was 300 and with trophy it was 315. If I follow your fomula, 300-103 = 197, 197/40=4.925, so 5-4.925=0.075% chance of failure. that means, I should fail just 7.5 failures out of 10000 combines.

Hmm, I made another batch before that and I was failing about 1 out of 20-30 combines as well. So, is this really bad RNG? It seems there is a large discrepancy between 0.075% failure and 3-5% failure. You sure you don't have a decimal place off somewhere Tanker?

Taushar

Edit: I just realized that you guys round down on percentages. Even so, with 5%-4+% should yield 1%, or 1 out of 100 failures. I can get consistent 3-5% failure on Blessed Dust of Tunare combines.

[Tanker]

Yes, Taush, I'm going to say that's the RNG being "very" bad to you.

Unfortunately, you only posted real numbers for a set of 60 combines, and people's undocumented recollections of runs is usually fairly unreliable. However, since I was looking at tradeskill stuff today already, and you'd tried to give me real data, I took another look.

Not only did I recheck the code, but I set up your situation as you described it. I gave myself 300 pottery and in a kiln combined the gem, acid, and essence for a Blessed Dust of Tunare, whose trivial is 103. I then stepped through the code and watched it compute my chance of success at 99%. So the computation is working. I can't really do any more to convince you at this point.

We've read lots of rants over the years about EQ's RNG, I even tested it myself sometime last year. It's good and random, but bad things still happen.

[Rissenn]

Tanker, thank you for the direct communication, it is much appreciated.

However, due to this:

I gave myself 300 pottery

We must forever roast you under a slowburning fire while pelting you with marshmallows!

[Kakg]

However, due to this: We must forever roast you under a slowburning fire while pelting you with marshmallows!

I'll bring the 6 pack of root beer.

[Aleksandros]

Tanker, thanks tons for your communication through this board. This is one of the areas where the RNG can be downright vicious.

And Riss, if he and Maddoc had to do it like the rest of us just for testing and debugging, they'd be too crippled up to unsnarl things when the code gets a bit "kinked". Some forgiveness must be allowed, so maybe just an evening of enforced listening to Yoko Ono's Collected "Music"...