Next Weeks Update...

[Eleena Transient]

For that matter, why require flags for progression to any zone at all?

Pre-luclin, when you invited a 59/60 into group, you knew exactly what you were getting.

With luclin, you were pretty sure, you could guage by the title how many aa that 60 has. If no title, you knew it was a weak 60, if class title, a stronger 60.

PoP gave us 65, and people went nuts on AA. Now there are SO many different 'qualities' of a lvl 65. You could get the "no aa, wearing fine plate, pl'd in 5 days" 65, or the "400 aa, time armor, knows their stuff' 65. Anybody thats gotten a tank in bot with 4500 hp knows the feeling of realizing that not all 65's are equal.

Flagging was a way to say "if they are in 'this' zone, they are at least 'this' good" Originally getting into PoV/PoS required the justice trial, and you knew that generally anybody in those zones had at least the capacity to complete the trial. Likewise, folks in BoT were good enough to do PoS giants.

With god, its the trials to enter KodTaz. I like the restriction, because it lets me know that those in the zone (generally) are good enough to play there.

[Tudani]

This is all good and well for the uber guild members that are able to get flagged to Aid Grimel. What about the rest of us that have spent the 300K and many, many hours of farming to work up our trade skills, only to be shut out because we don't belong to a raiding guild that is elemental capable?

There are several servers, including my own, that have an open raid group that has done every mob required for elemental flagging. If one exists on your server you might want to check it out, if not you might want to try to get one organized.

[Jaasper]

Flagging was a way to say "if they are in 'this' zone, they are at least 'this' good" Likewise, folks in BoT were good enough to do PoS giants.

Now I agree with you on principle, but disagree on how it was implemented (By SoE). To get to these end game zones you DON'T have to be good or even have great equipment. You DO need to be in a guild that has some good players and have good equipment. Anyone can be gimped along in the wake of a raiding guild. Now the equipment and raiding DO go together, everyone in a raiding guild gets equipped at a phenomenal rate (but never fast enough for some ) You and 72 of your best friends can take out almost anything (In fact when we took out the Rathe Council for the first time we had a few groups in a second raid).

BUT your not talking about the guild were talking about the individual. An alternate test for single groups could be set up that tests a groups skills vs content to see if your worthy of progression (GoD Mountain trials are excellent examples of this, ok they need to be re-tuned for the current max level 65, but ya get the idea).

So, you can't get in a guild that can take out Sol Ro, perhaps an instanced zone that is of equivalent difficulty could be implemented that bypasses this step. And as an added bonus it solves the back flagging issues. They could be tuned with drop rates and quality so they don't affect economies of servers etc.

[Yitara]

There are several servers, including my own, that have an open raid group that has done every mob required for elemental flagging. If one exists on your server you might want to check it out, if not you might want to try to get one organized.

You missed the point. If I had the time to raid, I could be in a raiding guild and get flagged. I have actually tried an open raid on MB twice, got wiped both times because most of the people there had no clue what to do (see previous post about quality of play). I simply don't have the time to raid given my own personal situation. I am sure there are other people that might have the time, but might not want to raid for one reason or another. Some people might just want to do trade skills and as little actual adventuring as possible to farm items, go up some levels, etc.

The argument that flagging can be used to weed out inferior players is without merit as has been pointed out. I play a 65 bard with 83 AA points, a 64 mage with 200 minimum in every TS and GM in two of them, a 53 monk, a 52 warrior, a 40 ranger, etc., etc. I started right before Kunark first came out, which has been a few years now. My only limitation as a player is my gear, not my ability or knowledge of the game. LDONs helped the gear a lot, or course, but after 250 of them they are kind of stale. Plus, as I pointed out, there is not much I can make with my trade skills from LDON drops. The group I play in can easily handle BoT, PoTactics, Hard LDoN's, etc. But my guild rarely has enough people on at one time to do the hedge quest in PoN.

Flagging to me was put in to keep small guilds from interferring with big guilds, pure and simple. It is a form of segregation and if this were the real world it would be illegal. Its sad that someone like me who has put in the time and effort in this game to the best of their ability is told "no, you can't go there because you don't belong to the right guild".

I am not saying that I want to be able to take down Rallos Zek with one group in under an hour and they should do away with big raid content. I have accepted that my bard might never get his epic cause I have yet to go to Fear, of all places, for a common drop. All I am saying is why is a trade skill themed quest like Aid Grimel dependent upon flags when it involves so much effort just to make the darned items? Most of the components can be farmed or purchased quite easily. And why can't our group go to Earth to try and farm some drops for armour and bows? Why are there flagging requirements at all? Someone give me a valid reason, please.

[Lilosh]

And why can't our group go to Earth to try and farm some drops for armour and bows? Why are there flagging requirements at all? Someone give me a valid reason, please.

While I won't comment on the current system of flaging, i find flags to be a "Good thing". It seperates those who put time and dedication in.

For example, the seb key is a relatively easy key. However, Since not just anyone can run into seb, it cuts back on the population.

Vex Thal is another good reason for Flags/Keys. A raid zone would be beyond fubared by random BoThunder morons training every which way.

And finally, for PoP, think of it this way. You go to the Plane of Earth to Kill the Rathe. Or the Mystical Arbitor. The devs don't want random people deciding to poke their heads in and wipe a raid. a couple hundred elemental flagged people versus tens of thousands of level 62+ , or 65, is a nice way to cut back that number.


So if Reward for time involved, and preserving raid content aren't valid reasons to you, then I will have to ask you what YOU consider to be a "Valid Reason". :-)


-Noish

[mewkus]

Many of the zones that require flags have alternate quests you can do to gain access. Such as collecting worm droppings or something like that in PoD to get access to CoD instead of killing Grummus.

I think this was a good idea. It let those of us in smaller guilds get access to some of the more interesting zones. Unfortunately, they changed it so that many of the zones that these quests grated access to can now be access simply by reaching a certain level. Some of these quests were not easy and I spent considerably more time working on them than I did actaully getting into pick-up raids to get the same zone access flags. Also, the quest access method does not mix with the flag access method. So, even though you've turned in the worm droppings, if you want to get to elemental planes, you'll still have to go back and kill Grummus. Similarly, if you want to do the Aid Grimmel earring, these quests don't count. I think they should.

As far as grouping with someone in Halls of Honor, I'd feel much more comfortable with someone who's collected all the junk and done the turn in quest to get accsess to HoH than someone who's mearly tagged along on and AD raid.

[Yitara]

While I won't comment on the current system of flaging, i find flags to be a "Good thing". It seperates those who put time and dedication in.

For example, the seb key is a relatively easy key. However, Since not just anyone can run into seb, it cuts back on the population.

Vex Thal is another good reason for Flags/Keys. A raid zone would be beyond fubared by random BoThunder morons training every which way.

And finally, for PoP, think of it this way. You go to the Plane of Earth to Kill the Rathe. Or the Mystical Arbitor. The devs don't want random people deciding to poke their heads in and wipe a raid. a couple hundred elemental flagged people versus tens of thousands of level 62+ , or 65, is a nice way to cut back that number.


So if Reward for time involved, and preserving raid content aren't valid reasons to you, then I will have to ask you what YOU consider to be a "Valid Reason". :-)


-Noish

So, what you're saying is that the Aid Grimel quest was designed as a reward for those who can afford the time to put into a large raiding guild. I thought so.

No, I don't consider reward for time (I have put a LOT of time into the game in four years, just not in 8 hour blocks) and preserving raid content (I am unable to raid) as a valid reason to make flags a requirement to make a TRADE SKILL quest item. If the developers didn't want us small fries to fubar an uber raid farming for stuff, then why put the required items in raid intensive areas? Sorry, you like the sytem because it rewards you. Pardon me if I disagree.

[kiatek]

I agree that the Aid Grimel should not require any flags to do the quest. You can't get the top earring anyway without flags (hope stone is not MQ'able) so why hold back some people who could get the second to top earring as a reward for getting their tradeskills up (i have done them just to do them not for this quest) and buying components.

Perhaps eventually they would get a flag and then just be one drop away from the top earring (which will probably suck next expansion anyway to top raiders).

It has always irked me that I can't do a tradeskill quest only because I can't raid (I have no time for 6 hour or more raids /shrug)

Good news on the other updates though

[Leafrat]

Guys, even if the flag requirement is relaxed, you still won't be able to do this quest if you are not tier4 flagged.

I will use the tailoring portion as an example. This combine takes three obsidianwood saps per attempt. I have tailoring skill 252 modified and I've thus far failed the combine 5 times. Thats 15 saps. How exactly would you intend to get these 15 saps if you can't farm them with a group of your friends? Do you actually intend to buy them in the bazaar? At 30kpp each (the lowest I've heard of them going for on any server) thats 450,000 plat. And thats assuming that you can even find 15 for sale! I've NEVER seen one of these for sale on rodcet nife server, myself... And thats just tailoring! The drops you need from the Plane of Air and the Plane of Water will also cost you an arm and a leg... Not to mention the hope stone, which would be completely unobtainable.

Simply put, you want a quest that requires skills LIKE the aid grimel quest, with a reward LIKE the aid grimel quest. However, the aid grimel quest in its present form simply cannot be altered realistically to fit your needs.

What you want is an entirely new quest--and I would respect and support that. But changing the Aid Grimel quest simply isn't worth it.

ps: Thank you for the changes Maddoc, I do like the idea of switching between the two earrings, I know a couple people in particular who will like that

[kiztent]

No, I don't consider reward for time (I have put a LOT of time into the game in four years, just not in 8 hour blocks) and preserving raid content (I am unable to raid) as a valid reason to make flags a requirement to make a TRADE SKILL quest item.

If you've won 250 ldons, you have time to raid more than likely.

And it's not a tradeskill quest item. It's a quest item that requires tradeskills. Just because something requires tradeskills doesn't mean that, like developing on Linux, it is contaminated and will forever be a "tradeskill item."

It's not a reward for time invested, it's a reward for time effectively invested in your growth.

Getting flagged isn't that hard. It's really not.

[Sanna]

do not mention 'rallos' to noishpa or 'bertoxx' to me. 'raiding/flagging = hard' is relative for each person.


there's a difference, to me, between needing flags to get to zones where, say, AG drops are, and needing flags to DO THE QUEST. Ie, why do i have to have bertox and two hoh trials in order to do the smithing part of AG? rather, merely require me to be flagged for the zones where the drops for AG are. That's good enough. IMHO.

then again, i may be thinking at it from a different angle than the devs. /shrug.

at any rate, ability to switch b/t the two AG ears = a very good thing.
hyper-dependancy on flags = slightly less of a good thing.

-- Sanna

[Taglos]

Do you actually intend to buy them in the bazaar? At 30kpp each (the lowest I've heard of them going for on any server) thats 450,000 plat. And thats assuming that you can even find 15 for sale! I've NEVER seen one of these for sale on rodcet nife server, myself...

I guess you don't hear things from every server. I've seen them as low as 12k in the Bazzar on Zeb, but those sell fast and 20k is more normal. I've seen as many as 8 of them for sale on a given night.

As you so thoroughly pointed out though, the quest has the artificial limitation of being able to actually afford or find the components for sale. As well as having to raise your skills and purchase the aa to raise them high enough for the earring. Regardless how some try to spin it, this is a Tradeskill earring not a Quest requiring Tradeskills. If someone is dedicated (crazy) enough to raise the skills, they should be able to do the earring. As it is they still won't be able to make the final earring, they should just remove the flag requirement on the earring and make the Hope Stone MQable. I know that I as someone that experiences in the Elementals, would loot them instead of letting them rot to help people finish the quest /shrug

[Lenore]

I am glad they did some changes to the GoD tradeskilled items. Now, if they would make the wheat usable. Also, I have been sending /feedback after /feedback to get the GoD tailored bags/backpacks to the point where they can be turned into tokens in the bazaar from the barbarian lady, like all the other tailored weight reducing bags/backpacks. When they released LDoN, they made the Lemming Fur Backpacks token friendly, but seemed to forget GoD bags and backpacks in their rush to release GoD.

[Lothay]

Lenore - The tokens system cam after the release of LDoN.

[Zaephod]

But my guild rarely has enough people on at one time to do the hedge quest in PoN.

Contrary to popular opinion there is no minimum number of people in a Hedge Raid. Take your single group or a group and a half and do Hedge. It's not that difficult.

Work with the open raiding groups to try to help them lead raids. Help with posting strats and teaching the other players to raid properly. The guild i'm in is not a required raiding guild. Yet we have progressed to the elementals and have already beaten 2 of the 4 Elemental Gods in our progression. We have done this on our own. There is no "you have to spend 80 hours a week on EQ to be able to raid" rule. You simply have to have a guild that all shows up regularly at the same playtime. If you don;t have the force to raid daily, it'll take longer as you'll have more time between attempts on flag mobs, but it CAN be done.

EQ is a hobby. You will get out of it no more than you put into it.