Fan Faire Write-up, Part 2: Tradeskill Super-Trophies

[kiztent]

1) the GM tradeskiller deserves some recognition, thats more work than any other phase of the game.

No it isn't.

[LexBardMT]

The developers didn't seem to be against the idea of a tradeskill super-trophy. Rather, they seemed to question the need for and value of it. In short, what value would it bring to the game?

Oh, there's this thing most humans refer to as pride. It impacts people in a variety of positive ways. Consequently, it doesn't surprise me that the developers fail to see the value of allowing an in-game means for people to acquire pride.

..but it turns out that going past 252 on a tradeskill would require some significant recoding to the game..

AKA - "We're too lazy."

..but it seemed the devs were not too happy at having to create multiple different 100% WR bags (one per trophy) and then modify the existing trophies and quests to accommodate them.

More - "We're too lazy."

Again, it's not possible to have multiple tradeskill mods on one item without lots of new coding..

Hail, a_broken_record

The devs seemed to find this idea unnecessarily complex.

The irony of this.. mentality.. coming from an EQ developer would make even Shakespeare blink twice.

[Verdandi]

AKA - "We're too lazy."
...
More - "We're too lazy."

How about "This would take a huge amount of time for a relatively small improvement. That time is better used working on more significant changes that players are also requesting."

You cannot accuse someone of laziness for not doing something when you don't know what they did with that time instead.

This is getting entirely too close to dev bashing. I don't want to lock this, so stop it.

[LexBardMT]

Which, by the way, is an item I can't get, because I don't have the flags, because I prefer to spend my time tradeskilling rather than advancing through the planes.

Well, whoever told you tradeskilling and "advancing through the planes" is an either-or deal is, quite frankly.. a moron. I have a Plane of Time flag, 5 tradeskills at 250 and the last 2 in the 220s. I also know a ton of other people that could say the same (or better).

I am really concerned about this from a balancing point of view. It is my feeling that the tradeskills rewards have diluted the overall value of tradeskilling. We used to be able to make money on Solstice robes, cutting sickles etc, because the money it took to GM these skills made it not worth the while of the typical gamer to do it. While I personally love the Aid Grimel quest, and I am close to finishing it, I wish it did not exist. It encouraged a whole slew of new GM Smiths and Tailors to flood the market in these items, as it was a side effect of getting their new uber earring. If this super trophy is too good, it will just be another incentive to further dilute the value and more importantly the uniqueness that comes with being a 1750 tradeskiller.

Ah yes, I see your point. Since the AG quest drove people to tradeskill it has unbalanced the game. Because.. you know, if AG never existed and all those people had just simply chosen to do tradeskills and flooded the markets the same way, that wouldn't be unbalancing at all.

I think you are just annoyed that your grip on the tradeskill market has been weakened.


Lastly, I think the toolbelt thing is a great idea. There should however, be an actual waist item called "Toolbelt". Tools would only go on the belt when it was equipped and tools could only be used from it when it was equipped. I doubt the developers like the idea of freeing up ALL the tool space, this would at least require 1 space be left (to store the belt) and require the player to make use of 1 item (that being the belt) like they would when using X tool in Y combine anyway.

[LexBardMT]

How about "This would take a huge amount of time for a relatively small improvement. That time is better used working on more significant changes that players are also requesting."

More significant changes?

I've played the game for nearly four years now and the "Suchandsuch would require recoding etc, etc, etc" thing has popped up countless times. So many times in fact that if there has ever been a possible "significant change", THAT is it. Not to mention, every time they make these coding changes they trumpet it like the coming of Ceasar, delcaring that it will pave the way for bigger and better improvements.

Anyway, much to my chagrin I saw the very replies I dread seeing the most in the fan faire write-up. I would have substituted more creative reasons for them not taking the proposed changes more seriously but I already used them myself to get out of the local underwater basket-weaving competition!

[Verdandi]

For all we know, it might take the entire team of coders three months to rework the system enough to make this request possible. EQ is an old and very complicated game, and these are things the original coders couldn't possibly have imagined. Would all that effort really be worth it given all the much simpler bug fixes, improvements, additions, etc that could be accomplished instead in that same amount of time? In the grand scheme of things, not a whole lot of people would be getting one of these super trophies. That is part of the appeal of the thing, but I'd have to think it also greatly reduces its priority when the devs are deciding what should be done next.

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep asking. Eventually there may be enough reasons to do a massive overhaul, so it's good to keep this request fresh so that it could be accomodated at that time. Or a way to work around the complication might be found.

[Koru]

One thing about the approach of "This would take too much time and benefit too few people" - that's not quite how it works out in reality. Used to be tradeskills were all but worthless from a utility point of view and much much fewer people did them. I should know, I used to get regularly laughed at for my baking and tailoring obsession. Time was put into improving the trades and the people followed, now the people who laughed at my swooning over brownie parts are out hunting for their own brownie parts. At the time I had maxed my tailoring due to shortage of recipies out there it would have made little sense to improve tailoring from a statistical point of view since so few people were interested in it. Most of the people on the server would have said it was far far more important to make a new plane zone to alleviate crowding in PoH than to improve such a small and useless aspect of the game.

Usually it will follow that the more effort and time is put towards improving something, the more attractive it will seem to people. So even if you have relatively few people who would benefit from some of the suggestions put forth right now, but this is not to say the bandwagon would not get jumped upon some time after the changes. The earring would be the clearest example of this.

Cliff notes: Build it and they will come.

[Daikoku Ashikaga]

Keep the killing of monsters requiring 40 groups and the flag process out of it.

A bit on the sarcasic side, no? Through out fantasy liturature there is a theme of the "Magical Component" be it the scales of the dragon to make a fire proff shield, twin meteorites, one to form the blade and one to form the philt to create the magic sword that is capped with the gem deallybob of power for a pommel.

Before the complaints about Raiders destroying it all it was the lock by Druids, rangers, enchanters, and to a small extent bards, though their track is weak.

The potential customer could then do a /who all GM Baker and actually find one, thus increasing our profits small as they are.

MTPs have one of the highest profitability levels of any tradeskill from what I have experinced, maybe only heady kolia's and eitheral curing agents and tempers being better, try being a smith or tailor.

the GM tradeskiller deserves some recognition, thats more work than any other phase of the game.

To quote a fellow SK: No.

I didn't get into tradeskills for a gold star by my name (Started at level 6, on my first real char, whom I still play today, long before I heard of the 7th shawl, there was no AG, there was no 8th)

I would suggest you actually try to get up to the point where you can get in to a top 5 raiding guild on your server, then gear up to average level and then do what is needed to do to maintain yourself there before you make statements like that, in tradeskills you to not loose out, ever, you do not fall behind, you may miss out on the "Next Big Thing" for "Big Proffits" but you will not go from the top person on your server to some follow on in the mid 20's only able to make a combine on someone handing you components out of sympathy.

You may take 100's of hours of work to farm the plat to get the componets to make the combine to try for Ultra_spiffy_item_002 which I can farm up in 4-8 hours, and make some plat doing it. You may think that it is unfair, you do not take into account the 35-42 hours a week it takes to get there and stay there so I can farm for those items.

No amount of work I can do on Dai, no XP no spell will give me track or let me make a mana vial. Yes, I have some weak forage abilities (Iksar), but I am out classed buy a level 40 ranger on that account.



Dai

[Ruldar]

Hmm...that seems rather contradictory to some of the time items. They have many items in Time that have +% mods to various skills. Granted, these are not tradeskills, but mods either way. I don't see why this would not be possible. However, even without the mods, the charm idea would still be wonderful.

It may be that they are not willing to do this, which is fine, I can carry a geerlok bag like I always have.

This seems contradictory because of the different fields that they added to the item data structure over time. With luclin they added the "skillmodtype" and "skillmodvalue" fields, which specify which skill is being effected and what percentage it gets. An item can only have a single value in each of these fields, and this is why it can only have one percentage modified skill (For example, if we look at the raw data from lucy for the Collapsible Fishing Pole, we see a "skillmodtype" of 55 and a "skillmodvalue" of 5).

But with PoP and specifically items from Time, they added a few more fields. For example, if we look at Ton Po's Chestwraps of Composure, we see "Skill Add DMG: Flying Kick +15%", "Skill Mod: Block +8%", "Avoidance: +15". The first of these uses the "dmgplusamnt" and "dmgplustype" fields (and this apparently works as an increase to the damage, and not as an increase to the actual Flying Kick skill I believe), the middle uses the luclin skill add fields, and the latter uses the "avoidance". The other Time stats work in a similar way.

[Demorgoth]

Hypothetical quest writeup:

You say, 'Hail Quartermaster Rehtom'ned'
Quartermaster Rehtom'ned says, 'Well hello there Demorgoth. Some people prefer to be the jack of all trades and the master of none. some prefer to concentrate exclusively on but one trade and perfect their skill in that alone. A precious few however manage to excel in all of the tradeskill arts and become the (Master of all Tradeskills). Which whould you consider yourself?'
You say, 'I am the Master of all Tradeskills'
(skill check here for 250 in all tradeskills, using Aid Grimel check code)
Quartermaster Rehtom'ned says, 'Incredible! I thought there were none of us left! I assume you have all your trophies to prove your skill? Good. I was really proud of mine, but unfortunately they took up far too much room in my bags while I was adventuring. I managed to find an old sage who combined their inherent properties into a single piece, but removed most of the bulk. This fitted into my adventuring gear much easier when I was travelling around. Now however, I am retired from adventuring and no longer have such concerns. I think a full set of seven trophies you look wonderful on this shelf in my shop, but unfortunately I don't have the time to go and make them for myself. I would happily give you my master trophy if you would (give me a replacement set) of trophies.
You say, 'I will give you a replacement set'
Quartermaster Rehtom'ned says, 'Wonderful! Please place them in this Trophy Case when you have them completed and return it to me.'
You recieve a Trophy Case

Trophy Case
MAGIC LORE NO DROP
Wt:7.0
Capacity:8 Size Capacity:Small

Put all 7 tradeskill trophies into the Trophy Case and hit combine

Full Trophy Case
MAGIC LORE NO DROP
Wt: 20.0

Hand Full Trophy Case to Quartermaster Rehtom'ned
Quartermaster Rehtom'ned says,'Excellent! You truly are a master of all tradeskills! As promised, here is the Icon of the Master Tradeskiller. I hope it serves you well and provides much needed room for all that ingredient collecting as it did for me. May your ingredients be plentiful and your combines successful, friend.'

You recieve an Icon of the Master Tradeskiller

Icon of the Master Traderskiller
MAGIC LORE NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY, SECONDARY, RANGE, AMMO
Skill Mod: Blacksmithing +5%
Skill Mod: Jewelcraft +5%
Skill Mod: Tailoring +5%
Skill Mod: Brewing +5%
Skill Mod: Pottery +5%
Skill Mod: Fletching +5%
Skill Mod: Baking +5%
WT:0.1 SIZE: Tiny
Effect: Summon: Master Traderskiller's Backpack
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

Master Traderskiller's Backpack
MAGIC NO DROP
WT:0.1 Weight Reduction:80% (note: this includes coins)
Capacity:10 Size Capacity:Huge

POTENTIAL PROBLEMS:

1: If there can't be multiple skill mods on an item due to programming restriction, make it a single 5% mod which you can change by combining in the appropriate container
(eg: +5 pottery icon in a forge, combine, give +5 blacksmithing icon)

2: Coin reduction %. Would've put 100%, but that could be considered overbalancing. Amount subject to dev's discretion.

3: But I made my trophies at 240!!! - Then you don't have much work to do to get to 250 then do you. Get combining! hehe )P

IN A NUTSHELL

1: You get rid of those multiple tradeskill mod items in your vault and replace them with a single item.

2: You lose the stats for the trophies, but you're not skilling up any more so don't really need them for that. If you want them you can just make up another tradeskill trophy.

3: You gain an unlimited supply of non-lore but rentable nodrop bags which you can destroy and remake at will to make room for jewelery kits or fletching kits for example

4: You get the additional bonus of coin wieght reduction - useful when you're trawling to the store for bulk purchases or hanging onto cash to buy those rare tradeskill drops in the field.

(ps: Rehtom'ned backwards is Den'Mother - well deserved recognition for all her work on this site)

[Demorgoth]

I am very much against the idea of a super trophy requiring any items from the high end game. I am almost a 1750 tradeskillker (just need a few more points in smithing) and I did it because I love tradeskills, not because of things like the Grimel earring. Which, by the way, is an item I can't get, because I don't have the flags, because I prefer to spend my time tradeskilling rather than advancing through the planes. The super trophy should not be linked to how good your guild is.

Agreed.

The flipside of the exact same coin is that a super trophy should not be linked to how 'bad' your guild is either. 'bad' is completly the wrong word I know, because it wasn't meant to be as an insult to your guild or playstyle. The point I'm trying to get across is that the items you listed have absolutely no value to people well above your level of content.

You wouldn't make items requiring high level drops because you can't reach them.
They wouldn't make items they'd never use just to take up a vault space.

End result in both cases: a proportion of the tradeskillers are excluded from the result.

For that reason, stats should be pretty much irrelevent on the super trophy, and it should be a globally useful 'utility' item, tailored towards a tradeskill of any level's needs.

[Pootle]

So basicaly you are removing all the stats and adding coin weight reduction?
(even if you could get all %mods on one item)

Sorry but thats usless. People still need the stats when equiping for a mod.

As for all this talk of coin weight reduction. I cant see the benefit (well, not for everyone). It is next to usless on my PVP server, nobody takes coin with them. You would just loose it if you got PKed.

[Demorgoth]

Sorry but thats usless. People still need the stats when equiping for a mod.

What do they need the stats for? They're 1750 (by definition) so don't need it for skilling up. The only one they'll possibly miss (in a tradeskilling environment) is the charisma for buying/selling, and since that caps out at 105 I believe, they few people who benefit from it would get max benefit from two regular trophies if they needed it that desperately

When you add stats you specifically target only a small subsection of the tradeskillers. It has to be restricted by access drops to prevent the item being overpowered on lower levels/content (eg Aid Grimel) or have stats useless to people beyond them (eg: geerlocks, existing trophies)

The aim was to make a TRADESKILL super trophy that provided a use for tradeskillers of any exp level and any content level.

[KyrosKrane]

Personally, I stand by my original assertion. Double or triple the stats on a current trophy, add HP, mana, and saves, give it NO tradeskill mods, and make it summon unlimited (non-lore) 100%WR bags that also give some amount of coin reduction. Place this trophy in a tradeskill container alone and combine to get back the trophy and a no-rent item with just a skill mod on it.

The super trophy should have stats; it's an upgrade to seven items with stats, so removing those stats amounts to a nerf. The stats should be valuable and beneficial by the current standards of the game. If you don't believe this last assertion, compare the Berserker epic weapon with almost any other epic in the game. The reason for the Berserker epic's superiority, as stated by the devs at the Fan Faire, is that they wanted to make an item that was competitive with current content. Apply that logic to tradeskills, and this new trophy should be somewhere between the existing trophies and the Aid Grimel earring in terms of stats and abilities. (The AG earring also requires an additional cost in the form of flags, so it should probably still be superior.)

The issue of multiple mods on one item would require a fundamental change to how the game stores and manages items. They've done such changes before, so it's not inconceivable that they would make such changes again. However, the devs have made it clear that tradeskills (and specifically, this trophy) are not a priority reason to make such a change. Perhaps in a new expansion they'll upgrade the game's code to handle unlimited mods, or some arbitrarily large number (say, ten). We can't count on that. My stance is that our time and effort invested in tradeskills should lead to a tangible, meaningful reward that is easy to implement and won't cause the developers to say, "This isn't worth our time to develop."

Pootle, to address your specific point. I though on PVP servers where items can be looted off other players, no-drop items and items in bags were exempt? Thus, others wouldn't be able to take the trophy or the bags anyway. As to looting coins, well, that's an element of the environment. Granted, it means the bags would be less useful for you ... but how could getting unlimited 100%WR bags, as opposed to just one, be seen as a bad thing, even on a PVP server?

[Maevenniia]

Demorgoth,

Of course stats are still useful to a 1750 tradeskiller. It’s the % mod to tradeskills that is of no further use (once you are 250 skill, you don’t really need a skill mod item, do you?)