Fan Faire Write-up, Part 2: Tradeskill Super-Trophies

[KyrosKrane]

Here is a summary of the discussions that took place about Tradeskill super-trophies at the Fan Faire. I passed these by Maddoc again, and he asked me to remind folks that while the concept is under discussion, it's not guaranteed to happen. This is just something they're considering, not something they've promised us. It could very well never make it into the game.

At one of the tradeskill panels, I mentioned the idea of a tradeskill super-trophy, and the devs asked to discuss it with me after the panel. We met up shortly afterwards and brainstormed some ideas.

For your reference, here's the original question as I sent it to the devs.

Are there any plans to add some kind of super trophy for multi-tradeskill GM's? Here are some ideas on what could be done in this vein.

• A tradeskill super-trophy is defined as a trophy you can only obtain once you have all seven tradeskill trophies (excluding alchemy, poison making, tinkering, and research), or one that requires 250 in all seven general tradeskills, or both.
• One possibility is a combine that requires all seven trophies plus some other item, yielding back six normal trophies and one super trophy with increased stats or abilities.
• Another option is for a no-fail combine of all seven trophies in a quest container to yield the super-trophy. The super-trophy could be combined by itself in a forge to yield a no-drop, no-rent, lore item with a bonus to smithing; it could be combined in a tailoring kit or loom to yield a tailoring-boosting item, and so on.
• Perhaps this super trophy could allow the wielder to exceed the 252 cap on tradeskills -- if it were a 10% mod for a 250 tradeskiller, the wielder's effective skill would be 275 rather than 252.
• Another popular option is to have the super-trophy reduce fail rates, much like the enchanter Jewel Crafting Mastery AA. This reduces enchanters' lock on one tradeskill while still giving them an advantage -- the super-trophy requires being a GM in all seven tradeskills, whereas enchanters can get the same benefit purely with AA's.
• Alternately, a single super-trophy with multiple tradeskill mods on it would also be nice.

The developers didn't seem to be against the idea of a tradeskill super-trophy. Rather, they seemed to question the need for and value of it. In short, what value would it bring to the game? We discussed a few ideas on how to make it popular for tradeskillers.

First, we discussed what it could and could not do. Probably the most requested feature is some way to increase tradeskill levels beyond a modified 252 or reduce failures like the Jewel Crafting Mastery AA. I proposed both these ideas, but it turns out that going past 252 on a tradeskill would require some significant recoding to the game, and the JCM ability cannot be turned into an item ability or a buff that could be placed as a clicky on the super-trophy. Personally, I would much rather have one of these two abilities than any other on a super trophy, but I understand that it's much easier to work within the existing system rather than push for major changes.

Once we had gotten past that idea, we looked at what else could be done with the super trophy. The idea of changing existing trophies to yield different 100% WR bags has been bounced around a bit, but it seemed the devs were not too happy at having to create multiple different 100% WR bags (one per trophy) and then modify the existing trophies and quests to accommodate them. Instead, we discussed allowing the super-trophy to summon a new, non-lore 100% WR bag. That would allow you to summon up to eight 100% WR bags from the super-trophy. This would only require the creation of one new bag, and the existing trophies would not be changed.

Of course, tradeskillers would want some form of tradeskill mod on the super-trophy. Again, it's not possible to have multiple tradeskill mods on one item without lots of new coding, but we did discuss a few ideas on how to achieve this within the existing game. One person suggested creating seven super-trophies, and right-clicking on each one would consume it and summon the next in the sequence (sort of like the Vibrating Gauntlets of Infuse; when you right-click the gauntlets, you get a Vibrating Hammer of Infuse, and you can right-click that to get back the gauntlets). The devs seemed to find this idea unnecessarily complex. Instead, the idea I suggested above (of placing the trophy alone in a tradeskill container and combining to get back the trophy plus a no-drop, no-rent, lore item with a mod for that tradeskill) seemed much more to their liking. The nature of the mod is still open for debate, but it's safe to assume it would be at least 5% like the existing trophies. Again, I would wish for something a bit more dramatic, but I'm not sure what we could do without major coding.

This brings us to the stats on the super-trophy. Maddoc seemed to be happy with doubling the stats on a normal trophy, which currently has STR: +10 CHA: +50 WIS: +10 INT: +10. I would personally be much happier if the super-trophy also added something to all stats, plus some HP, mana, and resists. That would make it more attractive to players of all classes, and more likely to be equipped all the time. (Compare the Blessed Coldain Prayer Shawl, which is arguably easier to achieve than all seven trophies.) Since you can equip three normal trophies at once for stats (one each in primary, secondary, and range), giving up seven trophies for just double the stats of one original seems a bit miserly.

These ideas weren't fleshed out too much at the Fan Faire, and Maddoc specifically requested that I post my ideas and what we discussed here for more feedback. So, what do you think?

[Pootle]

Thank you for posting all this, it was a very interesting read.

The thing about the stats.... yes we may be able to equip 3 trophies, but i think the devs may be right about not wanting to triple the stats.... a single item with 30wis/int, a little too powerful.

Double the stats sounds ok, but yes i would also like to see some resist, hp/mana to make it a usefull device.

I had another idea that i posted a while back, put an instant click self only Charisma buff on it. It wouldnt be too powerful, but mean a person in tradeskill gear wouldnt have to swap to charisma gear to buy/sell. And also a self only insta click buff is a usefull game item. See Gobby skull earing, 10th ring. This would be the bonus reward of having finally made it to the super trophie.

I also had an idea similar to this one here - (of placing the trophy alone in a tradeskill container and combining to get back the trophy plus a no-drop, no-rent, lore item with a mod for that tradeskill)
But i didnt think about putting it in on its own... mine was to combine it with something that is linked to that skill -

Smithing - small piece of ore
Pottery - small piece of clay
JC - silver bar
Simply, a cheap vendor sold item that is easy to get.

Only thing to think about is the resulting mod item (the no rent one) will have to be equiped so it could do with having some stats??? Unless you take the Super Trophie stats to ballence out having to equip the Mod item with no stats.

[Flabbo]

Yeah, I was the one who suggested the vibrating gauntlets idea. Id reallty just prefer to have some sort of universal tool to free up bank space. IE smithing hammer/chisel/file all in one, fletching whittling knife, planing tool etc. Carrying this junk around is annoying.

For the super trophy to have any real value to be worn at all times, it needs both HP, mana, and preferrably a FT/regen + ATTK mod on it. Very few mid to end game players are willing to equip an item with no hp/mana/resists on it at the very least.

The WR bags would be nice. I'm always destroying 2 bags when I do alchemy, and it would be nice to have persistant (ie, not no rent) versions to replace them with for ldons.

Basically the item would be for bragging rights. Unless the components are on par with the "Aid Grimmel" quest earring to get (and I am fine with this), it should be limited in raw stat value. It would be nice if it held interest to those of us in elementals and beyond of course.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Only thing to think about is the resulting mod item (the no rent one) will have to be equiped so it could do with having some stats??? Unless you take the Super Trophie stats to ballence out having to equip the Mod item with no stats.

Perhaps the No Rent mod items could have the same stats as a regular Trophy: 10str/wis/int 50cha. Would allow you to make only identical sacrifices you would have to in terms of the original trophy, and its not like they're giving you somthing you wouldn't have had access to originally - afterall, you did have 7 of the things before you made the super-trophy (assuming, of course, that they are consumed in making it).

[Quichon]

Yeah, I was the one who suggested the vibrating gauntlets idea. Id reallty just prefer to have some sort of universal tool to free up bank space. IE smithing hammer/chisel/file all in one, fletching whittling knife, planing tool etc. Carrying this junk around is annoying.

For the super trophy to have any real value to be worn at all times, it needs both HP, mana, and preferrably a FT/regen + ATTK mod on it. Very few mid to end game players are willing to equip an item with no hp/mana/resists on it at the very least.

Totally against this one. If it's for tradeskilling, then perhaps int/wis bonuses out the ying/yang, or some of the other stats that are used in specific tradeskills, but no atk, no ft/regen, or anything like that. It's not supposed to be an uber item for fighting, it's for tradeskilling.

[Maevenniia]

Speaking of trophies, was a trophy for Spell Research ever mentioned?

/sigh

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Totally against this one. If it's for tradeskilling, then perhaps int/wis bonuses out the ying/yang, or some of the other stats that are used in specific tradeskills, but no atk, no ft/regen, or anything like that. It's not supposed to be an uber item for fighting, it's for tradeskilling.

I was almost dissappointed when I looted a nice range item, as that ment I could no longer justify leaving my Grandmaster Smith's Hammer permanently equipped. I am a smith, and I would like to make that plain and obvious. I avoided upgrading from Fine Plate for as long as I could. Originally, I only took off my Old Cultural armor when I could replace it with New Cultural (eventually the rest did get upgraded, too). Even now I'm avoiding small but easy-to-get upgrades, just so I can keep wearing my self-made blue diamond armor. Wearing symbols of my craft means something to me. I can't do that anymore with my GM Trophy - the sacrifices are too big. It'd be wonderful if the Super-Trophy could. Something with "decent" stats, so that it wouldn't be too unreasonable to actually leave it equipped. Something to show off continually and be proud of.

Ideally, it would be something nice enough to be "respectable", but not good enough so that people would do tradeskills just to get it - this is probably an impossible combination, but it's still what I would like :P

[Brickhaus]

I agree with Quichon and Dunthor - I want the super trophy to be useful for tradeskills primarily. I don't care about hps/mana/saves/etc on my trophies. I use them for Primary Stat (to boost my total for skillups), Cha (to buy cheaper/sell higher) and Str (to carry more). Something on the order of +25 to Wis/Int/Str and +100 Cha (to help those tradeskillers penalized with a very low starting Cha). I can see an argument for adding Dex as well.

The primary thing the super trophy needs to be able to do is general +5% tradeskill items at will. The combine in a container to produce the trophy plus a +5% item is a GREAT idea. Only one slot for 7 geerloks - sign me up

The idea of no-drop, but NOT no-rent or no-lore 100% WT bags from the trophy is a very useful idea as well. Especially for those who like to smith

I am NOT 1750 yet, but I am making my trophies as I go along. Why? Because I want to...I like to know that I've finished a tradeskill and for me, the trophy is the expression of that goal. I want the super trophy to reflect the same ideals as why I enjoy tradeskills in the first place, not to be some uber piece of equipment that high end players will covet. Aid Grimmel sounds like a fun quest... but for those of us not in high end quilds, it's more a fantasy than reality.

Brickhaus

[Quesci]

The problem with many of the suggestions for the super tradeskill trophy is that many of them won't be much help if you can actually get the trophy.

We don't need more than the 5% that the trophy gives us--in fact, at 250 skill we don't even need 1% skill modifier to make 252. I guess it would be useful for people who made their trophies earlier than 240, but how many of us would support a super tradeskill trophy for people below 240 anyway?

Adding INT/WIS would be nice for some, but only if you are going to keep it equipped 24/7. The INT/WIS isn't going to be useful for skilling up--again, by the time you get this super trophy you are at max skill. If you increase the stats so that they are useful for average players to keep equipped, then it is disaproportionately useful for certain classes--why should some classes get a very useful trophy while for others it is not something to keep equipped?

Honestly, at this point I'd settle for a super trophy that wasn't much different from my other trophies, even just to get the room in my bags.

[Xira]

A Tradeskill trophy does not need any huge stats, there is already to many people involved for the wrong reasons. Since prices are capped at cha 104 and skillups dont matter once u have all skills up, there is almost no gain for real skillers above the 50 Cha on normal trophy.

I'd like the idea of a form of universal geerlok to clean up space, but it would benefit 240'ers (me) more then 250'ers. I dont see where the rotation type would be problematic coding, other then adding 7 summon spells with component and 7 new items. The feature already is in game (warrior Epic).

Another useful option would be a nodrop, not lore, not norent summoned bag. Add 100% coin reduction and it is one of the most useful things I can think off, but the last option will attract non-skillers again.

Gate Abysmal Sea ? Any cast time will be better then the half hour boat rotation.

Lastly I would settle for something fun, Illusion halfling female, or a title, or ...

[aruvqan]

I would love to have a single trophy that is unique, that you have to go to a quest npc [like a grimel type person] where you turn in your trophies and get a single one back. I would also like to see it that you could get 1 grandmaster permanent bag per trophy for a total of the number of regular GM trophies. I know that sort of leaves out the racial or class specific tradeskills...

I also love the idea that you could combine this uber trophy in a tradeskill container with a tradeskill ingredient and get a univeral tool so you wouldnt have to keep different hammers, files, chisels, planing tools, skinning knives, nonstick skillets and the like. That alone would free up serious bank space for me=)

And I have to laugh at the idea that chanters have the lock on jewelcraft....JC was my first 250 skill as a cleric=) <smithing is going to be number 2>

[Ngreth Thergn]

Just a thought on this "universal tool" idea....

That would mean that every single recipe that has a tool, would need to be edited by the dev in question... and that is no small task... a HUGE amount of work you are asking for.

I am not saying either way on wether or not the dev should do this much work, just indicating you you guys that it will take that much work.

[Auricula]

Ngreth said: First, we discussed what it could and could not do. Probably the most requested feature is some way to increase tradeskill levels beyond a modified 252 or reduce failures like the Jewel Crafting Mastery AA. I proposed both these ideas, but it turns out that going past 252 on a tradeskill would require some significant recoding to the game, and the JCM ability cannot be turned into an item ability or a buff that could be placed as a clicky on the super-trophy. Personally, I would much rather have one of these two abilities than any other on a super trophy, but I understand that it's much easier to work within the existing system rather than push for major changes.

How about the reverse? One you are at 1750 you are able to trade in either the current Tradeskill Trophies or even a Super Trophy for a new JCM3-type AA that would be available to ALL classes ... something along the lines of the free AA and STATS you can get by being flagged for PoP zones? Even limit it to being able to do it only once so you have to chose which single tradeskill you would like to reduce failure rates in.

[kiztent]

Ideally, it would be something nice enough to be "respectable", but not good enough so that people would do tradeskills just to get it - this is probably an impossible combination, but it's still what I would like :P

Nice enough to *who* Dunthor? Someone still wearing BD cultural? Someone in ornate? Fully elemental?

[Carnilion]

I think that the mutli-tool would work (whether it was the super-trophy or not) if the devs made a new recipe for each tool that included the multi-tool, some cheap components (ie water, stackable ore/clay, spices) and something that costs a little like a celestial essence or a perl so that you can't sell the item back for more than it took to make. There would have to be a different recipe for each tool, which could get cumbersome, but with the new tradeskill interface at least you wouldn't have to memorize all of them.

Examples would be:

File
Multi-Tool
Celestial Essence
Water x 2

Dairy Spoon
Multi-Tool
Celestial Essence
Water x 3
Frosting x 2

If you don't like the idea of making the celestial essences, then maybe use a gem that costs about the same. I would just hope that it would be something fairly easy to get and most of the recipes use the same thing so you don't have to carry around too many components. Carrying a stack of celestial essences and the multi-tool sounds much better than 2 backpacks full of tools. The other components would have to be commonly available everywhere (such as water) or at least to the tradeskill vendors (ie frosting) but it would be best to use as few different components as possible.