New Tradeskill UI on Test

[Tudani]

Re: An update for you.

Originally posted by Brenlo
2. Recipes can be learned. The ones that show in your recipe search list at first are autoLearn only, and only those with trivials up to 50 points above your current skill level. Successful completion of a canLearn recipe in the old interface ("Experiment") will add that recipe to the list of recipes you can search for, regardless of its trivial value.

This means that any autoLearn that has a trivial >50 points above your skill level that you attempt sucessfully will be added to your book as well? It sounds like it but want to double check.

I would also put my vote for letting canlearn stuff be added on the first combine regardless of sucess. If you fail you know the recipe is a valid recipe, and grouping with someone and asking them to tell you the name of the result will give you what you're trying to make regardless of failure. (Though it does seem silly that someone across the zone can know what I'm trying to make when I can't except by clicking on it if it suceeds.)

I am also curious about stuff with a greater than 300 trivial (if any exists) or greater than 250 for alchemy and fishing. Are there plans to make a way to autolearn those recipes as well?

I'm looking forward to logging on to test when I get home from work, will comment more after I've actually had a chance to see the new system.

[Tudamorf]

Originally posted by Rombus
I think this is more of the IDIHBY (I did it harder before you~) complex. Lots of people get it, myself included.

No, it's not. When you take most of the effort involved in raising a trade skill, you cheapen it. Also, there's no fun in getting a reward that involved no effort.

I realize many people who are frustrated with the current system can't understand that now because they are just looking to the immediate benefits of not having to click as much. But in the long term, cheapening trade skills will cause players to get bored more easily and have less fun.

Think of it this way: If there were a button you could press that would get you to level 65, with 500 AAs, best combination of Time/elemental gear, all flags, and all skills, would you still have fun doing it the old fashioned way? Now you see the danger in removing the effort involved in the reward.

Originally posted by Rombus
The point of it is to make tradeskills more fun and less stressful. As I said, it's all about endurance at this point. Nothing more.

Very true. Endurance is too much a factor in the effort in trade skills, as it is in raids, adventures, and XP groups.

However, some kind of effort is better than none. Before you remove the effort involved and make trade skills a free-for-all, you had better propose an alternative to replace it.

Originally posted by Rombus
You act as if you instantly get skillups with this system - you don't. It's still going to take a bit of effort to skill up and it will be by no means pain free.

Also true, for some skills. Tailoring is going to still be somewhat difficult. Smithing 222+ is going to still be somewhat difficult. But the vendor-buyable skills (e.g., Jewelry Making, Brewing, Baking, Fletching) are about to become trivial. They might as well put in an NPC that takes X money and hands you Y skill.

[DeegerStormcrow]

They should allow you to bump up tradeskills with your guild trainer (past 20, that is). 1pp per skillup. That should solve all the boring RSD clicking.

[RreddSoulfreer]

How to defeat macroers....

Why do people macro? Because it provides an "advantage" over doing it the "hard" way.

How do you prevent folks from macroing? Remove this "advantage" by allowing folks that arent cheating to do things as fast or faster than the macro folks are.

Assuming it takes 2 seconds for a well written macro to complete a fairly complicated combine of a profitable tradeskill item. Lets say, Grobb Liquidised Meat. (lets leave exploiters of price bugs aside, but this applies as well) Your typical macroer loads up on combines, gets everything set up, starts his macro, and goes to bed while his computer makes GLM all night.

Lets make macroing HARDER now...

First, make the delay between clicks LESS than how long it takes a macroer. Say 1 second or if you REALLY think about it, what is the point of delay in the first place? Perhaps for roleplay reasons it should take SOME time but really, you want the skiller sitting at the keyboard cheering his skillups. MINIMIZE the delay!

Add to the new interface the following features:
- Repeat count - defaults to 1. If set to 10, the recipy will automatically repeat 10 times with the user having the ability to stop the combining if they need to quit. Let this number be UNLIMITED... The upper limit is really your supply of ingredients. Autorepeated combines would be "autoequipped" to land in bags. Autocombining also stops when there is no place to put a created item (which ends up staying on your cursor).

- Destroy on Success - Yes.. we know it happens in pottery at least. Folks automatically destroy the output of their combines. Have a checkbox (with a CONFIRM popup) for selecting to autodestroy on successfull combine. Macroers and most skillers currently DROP these items. More useless clicks.

- Recipies should work EXACTLY like LoY maps do. Who cares if you can download a set of recipies from a website some place? Just as easily you can manualy do the recipy once and get it into your system. Allow savvy users to tailor their recipy files appropriatly. Once you skill up in pottery, you don't EVER want small, medium, and large bowls to EVER show up again. Give the users the ability to delete the useless skillup only recipies from their books

Ya ya, I can hear the "I did it harder before you did" crowd screaming. No matter, this makes macroing OBSOLETE! Well... with this, the only point of macroing is to warp to various merchants to buy components. With some movement auditing server side this could be detected, flagged, and BANNED.

This is a great thing for the repeditive strain crowd. Remember also that SoE folks probably have to be VERY carefull saying the words "repeditive strain" and "tradeskills" in the same sentance as if they acknowleged having caused RSI with their interface they would probably be opening themselves to litigation.

My 2cp.
Rredd

[OutcastAssassin]

I haven't read all the posts (OK, I'm lazy), so im not sure if this has already been said but...

What about Brodder?

This ol' Dwarf has had the wool over the brewer's eyes for quite some time, and his secret (if there really is one) is going to be revealed? Just like that?

Maybe the "Secret Recipes" should have to be quested or something, like a Tradeskilling Epic

(EDIT: I just thought of something. Unless theres a way to turn off the "recipe Book", then that is going to make the Handmade Backpack Market go UP. Who wants to go bank and see a Recipe book? Probly already been mentioned...)

[Ezikial]

Tradeskill UI

After reading through 3 pages of debate on this new UI, I am failing to understand a few things.

First, those that are debating how many receipes you should be able to see beyond your trivial. Why is this an issue, I have detailed lists of combines that I work from in a notebook on my desk, as I am sure most tradeskillers do. As for combines that haven't been discovered as of yet, SoE has been very tight lipped about game information, I highly doubt they will break from tradition and start giving up information.

Second, when i proclaim a tradeskilling acomplishment to my guild or friends, my statements aren't "look at what I made with 30 clicks of my mouse" nor when I link a newly made item do I see a congratulations concerning the number of mouse clicks it must have taken to make such an item. What I do see, is praise for taking the time to procure the necessary items and raise my skills to the point necessary. Reducing the number of clicks and mouse movements isn't going to break the game, or throw the EQ economy into chaos.

Third, your never going to defeat people that want to abuse the system. This isn't a 0 sum game, somebody macroing their way to GM isn't going to diminish the game for others. Having a cumbersome system in place isn't defeating those that want to cheat, but making the system a bit easier to use will encourage those that find TSing extremly boring to take up a skill and broaden their horizion. Yes, some people find the current TSing system to be very boring.

SoE seems to have many good ideas in the works as far as TSing is concerned. Those of us that are encouraged by it, can use it. Those that don't like it don't have to use it. Its not being shoved down anybodys throat.

[Astroshak]

Not gonna look back to see, but to the one who said that only recipes trivial to you should appear as ones you can select on the list, have you considered that there are recipes that are never trivial under the current 250 max (252 max with modifier) system?

Blessed Faydark Thunderbolts. Steel guardian arrows. PoP bows. Elemental armor. BS cultural. The list goes on. Some, people even use to skill up on (such as the arrows).

Sorry, but I don't buy the "they're making it easier" arguements. The hard part of tradeskilling has always been acquiring the ingredients, not in making the actual combines over and over. Some skills had this very easy (make 2 backpacks of metal bits, then make lanterns to triv, then skewers, then small sewing kits, remember this?) while others had it hard (non stacking pelts). This has NOT CHANGED. I've not tested the new system, but form what I've seen here this system makes the clicking easier, not the ingredient acqusition. The BAZAAR made that easier; were you complaining about the Bazaar when it came out, or were you complaining that it wasn't released with Luclin as it was supposed to be?

Brenlo. The prevalence of this website and mesage board should indicate something to you. Any recipe listed on this site, or any other commonly visited EQ tradeskill site (though I don't know of any others) should be in the "AutoLearn" catagory. Quest recipe, common recipe, recipes intended to be done only once per character (such as Ornate armor recipes), it does not matter, the recipe should be in the "AutoLearn" category. With a few caveats. Cultural recipes should be in the category, but only for your culture. No reason for this Half Elven Ranger of Tunare to know the recipes for Karana fletching, or troll smithing, but every reason to know how to make Fine Steel Plate, or Engraved Royal Velium armor. As far as quests, the recipes involved should become learned upon reaching the level that piece of gear can be used, or that it is concievable that the ingredients can be obtained. Ornate armor, for example, you cannot obtain all the ingredients prior to 55 so there is no reason to know how to make it prior to 55. But, delevelling should not remove the recipe from the list (unless the forge won't permit someone 54 and lower to make the combine, that is). If every ingredient is tradeable, the recipe should be "AutoLearn" even if the final result has a required level; I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a low level alt that skilled up to make something(s) that the character cannot hunt for the drops anywhere but the bazaar for.

[Jenkin Flintfoot]

Having GM'd Baking with a trophy, I don't think of the path I traveled to get here was the reward.

I look at the 2500 pp I made in 30 mins in the bazaar after a run of 60 Grobb Liquidized Meat combines as the reward.

Concerning Macroers:
Its silly to worry about the macroers in relation to the new UI. Yes, a celestial essence (for example) has gone from 6 clicks to 2 clicks. But if I were macroing, it doesn't matter how many clicks it takes, cause I'm not doing any of them. It does not, inherently, make it any easier for them.

Concerning my impressions of the new UI:
I play on Test exclusively and as a result, many of the high end items always sell well since much of the population chooses to help finance those who do enjoy tradeskilling rather than doing it themselves. Will this new UI change that? Maybe. Am I worried about it? Nope.

I personally am excited that much of the PITA in QATs, MTPs, & HMPs will be removed. I may actually try to keep stuff in stock now since whipping up a batch of 20 combines will now be easier and less time consuming.

Early Criticisms of the UI:
1. The recipe search function doesn't work in an intuitive way. For instance, using a Mortar & Pestle, if you search for 'celestial' you get no hits. If you search for 'a' you get all recipes that have the letter 'a' in them (including Celestial Essence in its myriad variations). That makes no sense to me.

2. Recipes with multiple component variations (ie Celestial Essence, Clump of Dough, etc) have an entry for every single variation. It would be much more desirable to have a single entry listed and then have the UI search through the possible components until it finds one present on the player. This way Celestial Essence doesn't have 100 entries.

Early Impressions of the UI:
1. It friggin rocks. In the time it used to take to make 20 2 component combines, I was able to complete 40. Additionally, it removed 2/3 of the clicking needed. This will make tradeskilling more fun, not less.

2. The fact that you need to successfully experiment to add a non-listed recipe into the list is just brilliant. I can't explain how tired I get of having to look up a recipe I've done hundreds of times before. Now I can just click on the recipe and realize I forgot the friggin bottle...again.

Questions about the New UI:
1. After reading Tanker's notes, I take it that once a canLearn recipe is successfully added, that it will be added to the Favorites? Or will it be added to the big ole list of recipes and you then need to go find it and add it to the Favorites list manually?

Lastly, I'm all for rare recipe books dropping that automatically add recipes to the Favorites list. But this would require interfacing with the guys that handle mob loot tables adn such so I don't hold much hope for it.

Thanks for all the hard work Tanker!

-Jenkin Flintfoot
-53 Druid, Test

[fenedari]

A clarification on my use of the term "dumbing down."
By this I meant the constant, on-going simplification of Everquest. No longer does a person have to worry under the level of 10 about losing items on a corpse. No longer does a person have to run across the whole of Norrath trying to do the Stein Quest. Hate has been revamped into a simple exp zone. Alchemy has given tanks magic powers they never dreamed of. Pottery allows clerics to have two bind points.
It takes less work, less effort and less time to do more in Everquest today then it ever seemed possible way back when.
I for one would never want to see those days again.

I have to admit that coming from the Test community my view on some things is not like everyone else's. I am constantly amazed at the actions and attitudes that a lot of people bring with them from their live server. Give a person a way to instantly be 25 with decent (to most) gear and they whine about not be able to be 65. Give them a chance to test how classes could be with their new 25h lvl character and they beg for two hours and whine about not getting free money too instead of spending that time hunting and earning it themselves.

/em Fene takes her medicatian and a few deep breaths...

Sorry, got onto a rant.
I have a lot of respect for those of you that stay sane while playing on a live server

It has been pointed out that things that come to test do not always show up on live in the same form. I guess I don't understand the bashing of something new when odds are that it will change before it is seen on live.

Oh and to Tudamorf, thank you for clarifying your point of view. I understand better now.

I think this interface is something we will all grow to love. I hope with our feedback and suggestions that it does get tweaked a little, both up and down.

[fenedari]

Wow, Jenkin, well written.
One note for you and maybe others. Doing a search you must put things in excatly. "celestial" will not find "Celestial" you have to have the capitalization the same as in the list for now.

[Teaamillie]

I remember Tradeskilling when:

Kathodos I was thinking same <gets misty>

I remember when I wanted to heat up Thanksgiving leftovers I had to use the oven or the stove. I remember when I wanted to watch Little House on the Prairie I had to stay home and watch it when NBC started the program for that night and sit through the whole hour.

Would I give up my microwave or my Tivo? Not on your life!

I do have one question maybe someone can help me:

3. The reason we have the canLearn flag is to be able to keep some combines out of this interface. Mainly these will be quest recipes and recipes that people hardly ever do "stacks" of at a time. A designer would have more to say on this.

Is this permanently, or just until the recipe is discovered/attemtped by the tradeskiller? Meaning will something like Solstice robes always be old style manufacture? I'm curious.

Teaa

[vision500]

Well, being a semi-tradskiller I figured I'd throw my thoughts into the ring too.

It looks like this tradeskill window is coming, and it looks pretty cool. I know I'll be able to forward my progress on a few of the tradeskills I'd been holding off on a lot easier. Right now I plan to hold off on any skilling until it comes out, because it’s just going to be easier. Can't argue with that.

I have Jewelry making to 227 and everything else around 180 (except for tailoring) so I've only dabbled in the arts, but I have been there and I know what is needed of me in the future.

When I first saw these changes I too felt somewhat betrayed that the effort I put into tradeskills was about to be abolished by a few clicks of some slack-jawed yokel.
-but-
I started after the people who could only pick up one at a time by using the slider bar. To them being able to hold control down must have felt similar. I do, however, fell this is a bigger jump than that.

Now, how do we make the majority of people happy? Well, one of the biggest reasons I went into trade skills is that I knew if I put a lot of time, effort, and plat into a trade skill, I could make it profitable. Most of the time I would come out just above even, but once in a while I could make money. Lets take, for example, Prismatic Dyes. If you know how to make these, you know it’s a fairly simple combining process and is a pretty simple way to make a little extra plat off of time. With this new system they will probably drop to 1-2pp profit (as compared to 5-15 now).

I don't mind losing money; in fact I've stopped making Dyes because I just didn't want to spend the time doing it. What I do mind is that after putting in a lot of time and effort someone could reproduce what I've done in a fraction of the time. Something that may have taken hours before will probably only take minutes. Fish Rolls, 4 very well timed (and placed) clicks will now become 1 (and maybe a dump to inventory once in a while (cursor build up?)).

Nothing will change this. It’s going to go into EQ, it’s going to be simple, trade skills as we knew them before will be forever changed. So how do you make it right? How do you give back to the people who put it all into them. Reward?

If I had to make a reward suggestion it would be to alter the Trophy’s a bit. Either make the current trophy’s better, or make the new ones worse. Give the people that really did pioneer the way something for their effort, don’t let them walk away empty handed. These are the people that struggled through every step, devoting time and energy to a system that many people wont touch, give them something!

For those of us who don’t have any trophies, I’m not sure how to reward that effort if it is even possible to.

-Cory
ps. I think macroer’s are a non-issue with this new interface.
pps. For reward precedent look at the wooden figure and PoP flags (I know, on a different level, but I’m not suggesting AA’s here)

[EQScott]

I have only partially gone through the GMing of tradeskills. I only have 2 skills over 200, so I have a long way to go. It's not just that I don't want it to be easy for others, I also don't want it to be easy for me. You say it will make it enjoyable, I say it will make it too easy, which in turn might take the fun out of it.

The jist of it is that I don't want it to be easier. Not so I can rake in a billion pp, but so that I have a sense of accomplishment when I finish. They gave us tradeskill trophies because it is an accomplishment to get there. Might as well make a sense heading trophy, because that's about how hard brewing will be.

Ok, back to reality.... how HARD is Brewing? I think you're being a little melodramatic. It's NOT hard. It's store bought combines up to 248. "Click and Drag" is not hard, it's tedious. Tradeskills = time spent. It's not like someone else is a better Brewer than me and got to (250) in 1000 combines, where I did it in 2500.

Skilling up isn't enjoyable, it is mind numbing. But I did it because I wanted to do all of the cool quests that require it. The enjoyable part of tradeskilling is making a new product. When I GM'ed Brewing, I did not say , "Woohoo! I can make another MHB!!! Who wants another???" But when I made that Tainted Avalanche Ale... now THAT was worth it. It had nothing to do with the fact that I clicked thousands of times before. It had everything to do with, "At least those horrible thousands of clicks were not in vain"

My point is, anything to take away the drudgery of skillups is a GOOD thing. I don't think this UI is giving it to new tradeskillers on a silver platter, they still need to spend the money and time. It's just reduced the number clicks for each combine.

I think this UI is super. Good job developers! Especially on the flags for autolearn and canlearn. I thought that this would be the hardest part to implement, I'm glad you came through on this one!

[Maevenniia]

I can't wait for this to go Live, personally. And that's all I have to say about that.

/derail on

To those who asked about Brodder's revenge, the recipe has indeed been revealed, see this thread: http://mboards.eqtraders.com/upload/...threadid=13221

/derail off

[Tudani]

Originally posted by vision500
I started after the people who could only pick up one at a time by using the slider bar.

If I had to make a reward suggestion it would be to alter the Trophy’s a bit. Either make the current trophy’s better, or make the new ones worse. Give the people that really did pioneer the way something for their effort, don’t let them walk away empty handed. These are the people that struggled through every step, devoting time and energy to a system that many people wont touch, give them something!

Definately disagree with this idea. I am personally one of the ones who was clicking away back before control and shift click were put into the game, and I have zero trophies to go with my 5 gm'd skills and 3 mini gm'd. I just decided it wasn't worth the effort after 4 failures and am waiting till I can collect enough gems the old fashioned way to be certain of suceeding at least once.

Just like when the ctrl and shift click went in I do not think any reward is needed. The older skillers reward should be that they had the oportunity to take advantage of previous markets (potc, spiritstones, bd cultural, etc) when they were the new hot item. The reward is also in being able to say "I remember when..." and looking back on the old times and feeling experienced and that you've seen tradeskills in EQ come a long way. At least that's how I feel.