New Tradeskill UI on Test

[Thunderheart]

Whats the Experiment button for? Edit: Did not see page two.

Any idea when this will go live?

[Shiphro]

An Idea

Instead of using this clause to filter the displayed recipes:

WHERE Trivial <= Skill + 50

... use this one instead:

WHERE Trivial <= 1.2 * Skill.


There are pros and cons to each system, but I think that rewarding the more experienced tradeskiller will both salve the egos of the existing grandmasters and motivate the lower-skilled players to up their skill and reveal more recipes.


I do think that the interface should display recipes that you've tried and succeded regardless of skill.
EX: A player with 190 in fletching wants to try acrylia arrows. He suffers thru old-school CTRL-Clicks and drags until he gets a success. At this point the recipe gets added to his interface (via an .INI file entry I'd assume) and is available from that point on.

Hmm... thinking about that a little more... it'd take about 3 seconds for someone to manually edit their .INI file so that they could see every recipe regardless of skill. Well... this is why EQ Developers make the Big Bucks.

[Serenya]

A 5 point past current skill limit? Do you have any concept of how selfish that makes you sound? You had to do your skilling manually, so no one else can possibly be permitted to do it another way instead? Most people skill up most of the time on recipes 20-30 points above their current skill, often much higher. How many bakers didn’t use fish rolls, or patty melts, halas meat pies, or picnics? How many brewers besides me didn’t use Mino Brews from 180 on? And half the tinkers I know use brewing gearloks because they, unlike 90% of the other recipes out there, are affordable. Frankly, I think 45-50 is fine, but I would want a minimum of 25 points.

For the record, my first tradeskill was tailoring, on a barbarian warrior, in Oct 1999. I started when it really was hard, little to no items were useful, and no skill was thought to be cheap. Charisma gear? I had a silk tunic…. Am I a 1750? No, and I never will be, UI change or not. Each of my avatars does one or two skills, originally the ones that ‘fit’ roleplaying wise. My warrior gave up tailoring for fishing. My ranger is stuck at 244 fletching, my baker is at 250, my dwarven cleric’s brewing is at 218. I have several avatars with skills hovering between 140 and 190, perhaps this change will help me push on for a few more of them.

As to the rest of it, I love it. I love being able to see what my modified skill is; love being able to check for a convenient recipe without hitting the EQTrader DB too often. I love not having to drag and drop, especially on days when it hurts to type. I already look up the receipes on EQ Traders, so seeing them there is not a negative, except for the handful of ‘challenge’ recipes. I would suggest that when a new set of recipes go in, whether or not in connection with a new expansion, that they not be added to the UI for a month or two to allow the community to experiment. But honestly, only a handful of recipes, usually quest related, require experimentation even now, the rest are in recipe books – is the new UI really any different?

[Rombus]

1) The interface trivializes skill gains.

If by trivializes you mean reduces wrist pain, then yes it does. Otherwise no. I think this is more of the IDIHBY (I did it harder before you~) complex. Lots of people get it, myself included.

2) The interface further encourages macroing.

Only to a certain degree, but it I'll get into that in a second.

My solution to #1 and #2: Allow the interface only for items that trivial at 5 points above your skill level (or, allow it only for trivial combines, as suggested above).

At 152 smithing on test I only have recipes for the next set of non-trivial combines available. It doesn't go 40 above, it stops at the Soltice Earring smithing items.

Alternatively, exempt skill gains entirely from the interface, i.e., make it impossible to raise skill if you use the interface.

That would make the new interface near worthless. The point of it is to make tradeskills more fun and less stressful. As I said, it's all about endurance at this point. Nothing more. Funny thing is, when tradeskills were made easier to raise in the current system most of the people didn't whine. When I got all of my skills up to 200, and eventually Pottery up to 250 I did it the hard way. I farmed stuff, I camped items, I did painful combines. Now you can get pottery up to 199 without seeing a single zombie skin. Why camp items when you can buy stuff in the Bazaar?

And for most trade skills, the majority of the effort of raising the skill is the clicking.

You act as if you instantly get skillups with this system - you don't. It's still going to take a bit of effort to skill up and it will be by no means pain free.

In the end the gains outweigh the loss (if you can even call wrist pains a loss).

[Durok]

First of all, thank you SoE for finally making a better interface for tradeskilling, this looks like a real attempt is being made to address our pain. And thank you, "Brenlo the Brewer", for taking the effort to communicate this with us, it is much appreciated.

Some points for consideration:

1) As a GM of multiple tradeskills, I'd like to see all possible recipies known listed once I hit 250 skill, and I know there are recipies with trivials of 275, 300, 350, whatever. I don't care what the trival is, once I hit skill 250, I want to see them ALL.

2) When I do my tradeskilling, I process large batches. I'd like to see the capability to combine whole stacks at a time for something completely trivial, like celestial essence and such. If needed, make them seperate recipies, 1 marr + 1 solvent = 1 cel ess, 20 marr + 20 solvent = 20 cel ess. The tedium of the massive subcombines is horrid.

3) As an alternative, please put an NPC vendor in game that sells celestial essence, it is cruel to force players to take two cheap NPC-sold ingredients and perform no-fail combines, for hours, in order to make the large volumes needed.

Thank you for listening.

[Bindamel]

Another Idea

I think the best way to handle "discovery" of new recipes is to have a button that shows everything you can make with your current list of ingredients. Have an "undiscovered recipe" tag serverside that prevents it from showing on a basic recipe list, but will allow it to be shown if you click a "What can I make with what I'm carrying" button.


As far as what recipes to show normally, perhaps make it like the map system. You can download all the maps if you want, or if you prefer self-discovery, you have that option too.

These could very well be programming nightmares, but it's just an idea.

[Mumboh]

Combining a couple ideas from above, I really like the idea of a recipe journal. Whenever you learned a new recipe -- either from experimentation, talking to an NPC, or reading a book -- it would go into the journal. But, like maps, the journal could also be primed with recipes downloaded from the web.

[Noni DeeCups]

Am I the only one who is tired of hearing about macroing, who cares?! Get over it and focus on something a little more productive. It is not like someone is corrupting the stock market irl.

I play this game for fun. I enjoy trade skills. I am already 250 in everything except Tailoring (243) and Smithing (224) and my wrist and arm BURN when trying to make a bazillion celestial essences... I think this new UI is wonderful. Because of this new UI I might do the shawl quest again with my cleric. My arm and wrist just could not do it again otherwise.

Focus on the 99.99% of the people who play the game right not the .01% that are lazy cheats.

Regarding being able to see / do higher skilled combines... don't be hypocrits. You use EQ traders, what is the difference?

[Serenya]

At Fan Faire, we asked Maddoc to make tradeskilling ‘fun’. I think this UI has the potential to make it more fun for more people. I know my husband, who currently falls asleep after 10 minutes of clicking, is considering skilling again. I’m sure there are others like him, and I don’t think that is a bad thing. Tradeskills are not my personal playground, they should be fun, and something many people are willing to do. I might actually be hurt by this – I make a pretty good living making celestial essences for other people – but I really don’t care.


Like Noni said, all of us come to EQ Traders to look up recipes, why should the person who can’t tab out not be able to see the recipes in game? I’ve made attempts at recipes 100 points above my skill, many a tinker has. Is it really that big an issue to be able to click on the recipe book instead? Does it invalidate your skill somehow? And as stated elsewhere – macroing is easy. Every recipe out there can be and is macroed by someone. This UI does not change that, it simply makes life better for the 99% of us who don’t macro.

[Mongo]

Baroooooga.

Here Mongo random idea. Mongo not know if dere programming limitations dat affect this, me wouldn't tink so. Iffen dis seem stupid, it cuz Mongo was up at 4 am dis mornin' and me not responsible for bad ideas or any unauthorized gnome eetin' under dese conditions.

Skill < 100

Recipes with trivial < 100 appear as soon as you attempt them.
Recipes with trivial 100 to < 200 appear as soon as you succeed.

- Recipes with trivial > 200 cannot be learned.

Skill = 100 but < 200

Recipes with trivial 100 to < 200 appear as soon as you attempt them.
Recipes with trivial => 200 appear as soon as you succeed.

- Recipes with trivial > 212 cannot be learned.

Skill => 200

Recipes with trivial => 200 and =<250 appear as soon as you attempt them.
Recipes with trivial =>250 appear as soon as you succeed.

Skill = 250

All recipes should be listed. If a recipe has never been completed in game (perhaps could be handled automatically by determining if recipe has never been completed on server), it should not appear. This, if it is possible for game to determine if item X (being product of recipe) has never existed as an actual item.

Skill Modifying items should NOT be counted for the purposes of anything above.

Allow the recipe list to be filtered or some sort of 'favorites' list per skill. For example, perhaps I only care about a few specific recipes, and don't want to have to scroll through every existing recipe to get to the one I want to use.

Just random attempt to put numbers to process, change or ignore as desired.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Mumboh
Combining a couple ideas from above, I really like the idea of a recipe journal. Whenever you learned a new recipe -- either from experimentation, talking to an NPC, or reading a book -- it would go into the journal. But, like maps, the journal could also be primed with recipes downloaded from the web.

And what about characters that already have 250 in skill. Are we going to have to do every recipe over again to prime our books? Not that the book matters. About 2 days after it goes live full versions will be on this very site for download - or if not, links to same on the web.

So what's the net effect of adding a recipe book? Nothing aside from making it EASIER to skill to 250 since you can just click on MHB all day once you download the recipe.

Unless you'd like it to be stored server side, which is a nightmare of its own.

And like Noni I'm in awe of the gall of people at the biggest tradeskill spoiler site complaining about the new interface. The ignorance about macroing is pretty stunning too.

[andyhre]

I have gotten all but tailoring to 200, plus fletching to 241.

I have done a lot of clicking already. I probably will someday get enough AAs to take other skills over 200, and so i guess I have a lot of clicking ahead of me.

I think it's fabulous, and I don't care if it means "the next guy" can accomplish what I've done in half the time. I literally am typing with a swollen, slightly infected left index finger from all of the clicking I did last weekend, not even trying to skill up, just preparing subcombines for some Solstice Robes.

So thank you, Brenlo, for sharing the idea and for what seems (on first blush anyway) to be a nice implementation.

As for suggestions, I do want to concur with others, GMing a trade should reveal all knowable recipes (i.e., if you want to keep some secret, that's fine, but if a recipe CAN be known, GMing should allow it. It would make those last 10 points worth doing, as a 241 fletcher, like me, would gain value from becoming a 250 fletcher.

I also like the idea of making a set of recipes "learnable" in that to know them you have to do them once (or buy the recipe, like a spell), but if that is too hard to implement, it's fine.

I am firmly in the camp that says that Heady Kiola and Wu's tailoring are NOT good for the soul, they are just a silly UI impediment. Now Wu's will still be hard, as you will need lots of subcombines, but the numbing of the wrist will be less frequent.


Andy

p.s. Are any of the Broder mystery recipes now available on the list? Potato Chips? Broder's Revenge? Deep Fryer?

[Gaell Stormracer]

Macroing is a problem because there exist recipes where the sell-back price is greater than the cost of the raw materials, and this is indeed a potential danger to the EQ economy. I believe SOE have fixed most (if not all) of these, and it shouldn't be THAT hard to do an automated check of the recipe database for such 'over-profitable' items.

As for the argument that the system should be made hard to use in order to make macroing harder, well, macros might be hard to program, but once one person has created a viable macro, I imagine it will then be used by many macro-users of lesser ability, in the way that 'skript kiddies' using hacking tools written by others. And once created, a Macro program can sit there clicking away all night with no risk of RSI -- so I don't think this is a valid argument.

[EQScott]

As it stands now, tradeskilling is mostly torture. Admit it.

Tradeskilling should be about collecting the components necessary, not about having to click your mouse a thousand times.

Keep the interface at 50 points below trivial to use, once you hit 200 every recipe becomes available. Let EVERYONE use it. If they want to waste time and resources by trying to skill up on items they have virtually no chance of making, let them. It's their time and money.

Using Macroing as a reason is not a good argument either.

1. They will find a way to macro with or without this interface. They will still be quicker because they can do it nonstop and walk away from the computer.

2. The macroers out there already have their toons that are GM's, preventing skillups more than 50 points away will do exactly what to them?

3. What this interface will do is give the average Joe a decent way to master tradeskilling without being the psycho diehards that we all are.

Having the attitude of, "I went through it, so should everyone else" is so WRONG, I don't even know where to begin. You want to use it to make items that YOU can sell for profit, but somehow using it to skillup is wrong? How very selfish of you. The interface isn't designed to help the GM tradeskillers make money easier, it's to make tradeskills more enjoyable for everyone.

Man.... the selfishness by some of the people in this thread just astounded me.

[Koru]

Ok, for mass combines like Celestial Essence, how about a button called Make Stack that would do one check for components, then one check for skill, give up a 'combine' timer and then return a stack of what you combined on your cursor.

It might not work for some recipes that give more than one item on combine - like say picnics, but it would help with items like soda water, celestial essence, and kiola. With only one skill check for the entire stack it couldn't be used for superfast skillups, and the timer would eliminate that anyway. It could be restricted to only some recipies. Try to use it on say mistletoe cutting sicles and it would give a "This item cannot be mass produced" message.

There aren't too many recipies that call for mass amounts so there wouldn't be too much work for that. It would really help however on those annoying to make items that are used in mass quantities like ceramic linings, metal bits, kiola, and of course everyone's favorite celestial essence.