Forage as an AA skill

[Sebilrazen]

Whoa...came up with an &lt;f><u>awesome</u>&lt;/f> idea...or not you can decide

Since we all agree that most of the people who want this ability are tradeskillers...

I will admit it does suck buying acorns...and i'm a druid so it must really suck for those halflings who don't get forage....

How about this:

Forage is created as a General Archetype ability, but unlike the other generals it will have 2 prerequisites, being that you couldn't select it as an aa untill:

1. You have spent a minimum of 6aa on tanaan crafting mastery, to prove you're a diehard tradeskiller

2. You must have 3 tradeskills at 201 or higher

you could train 2 ranks in the ability each rank costing 2 aa and granting a skill of 25
(this would be cumulative with iksar/we/bard)

to compensate druids/rangers a new aa would be added to the corresponding archetype

Forage Mastery aa(don't like name? suggest a better one)

would cost 3 points per rank, have 2 ranks
first rank would increase odds of zone specific forage by 25%
second would increase to 49%

That way non/racial foragers would have a shot at the tradeskill items, and druids/rangers would still excel at a class defining ability

what do you think?

[Lilosh]

Errr.....


So we give anyone, with the patience to earn AA, what we are Mostly all in agreeance is a class defining ability.

We then upgrade the class(es) in question, to do so better?

Hrmm....

Then shouldnt ALL classes have one of their abilities put up for all others to have?


-Lilosh

[Hobbun]

/bows to Sparrowhawk

Well said.

Hobbun

[Sebilrazen]

I'm just trying to come up with a compromise that I could live with...I stepped back, looked at it like I couldn't do it, but that it was a class defining ability.

I mean they let us share racial abilities via aa, so class *could* fall in line
(Regen=Iksar/Troll, Heightened innate stats = various, Metabolism= non halfling/kitty, breathing= froglok(yes they knew they were going to make a frog race when they gave us the ability))

All said and done I am opposed to it unless they do so with the intention of keeping dru/rangers the premier foragers, getting 2 to 4 times as much Dew, yew, tea, oak, acorns, whatever would make me a happy tradeskiller, and because of "inflation" ie druids and rangers will always get more, it won't harm the market, it'll keep it at status

[Railina]

The only thing that has kept me in this arguement is the blatant ignorance of the opposition's arguements. When i want foraged goodies, i log on my ranger, when i want mana vials or metals enchanted i log on my chanter, and i don't expect anything to be changed by SOE because we're posting about it on a message board. There, i feel a bit better, now that that's over with, let's point out some more horrible arguements.

Then what other classes can you think of that *require* foraged item(s) for their epic? Besides the classes that are given it as a maxable ability? And if Forage is meaningless as it pertains to tradeskills, why do you want it?

What you have to do to get your epic still has nothing to do with tradeskills or your "class defining" ability that 2 other entire races and a third class also get. I've never stated that forage was meaningless as it pertains to tradeskills, that was your arguement, and i do not concede you that point. Or are you worried that everyone will be running around with druid and ranger epics all of a sudden?

why shouldn't I or a ranger(or to a lesser extent iksars, bards, WE) be able to charge for the time we spend in a zone specifically looking for those items? Hours in PoJ looking for fruit, days in PoG finding planar oak. it becomes a function of time, if I want an imbued emerald I find a cleric that isn't busy and pay them for their time, if I want some mana vials for wu's I go buy a stack of pearls and vials and pay an enchanter for their time, if people making rods for PotC want dragon egg oil the either kill a dragon and pray one drops or they pay me for my time giving all classes the ability to forage would devalue rangers, druids and the other foragers(yes I meant to type it like that seeing as it's dru/ranger 200, bard 55, iksar/WE 50)

How does other people buying the ability to spend their time doing the things you intend to charge for your time invested doing devalue anything? It's not as if i, or anyone else, have been arguing for the ability to generate rare forages at will, with no time investiture. Your arguement seems to be "i spend the least time getting rare forages because i have the skill maxed, so my time is more valuable than that of people who want to spend AA getting the ability to forage at a much lower level."

Which way do you want it? Is it a "class defining" ability that you are defending, or is it the time you've spent foraging that you place value on?

Now, if your arguement for Foraging as an AA were to be successful, then please argue for the following AA skills to be added.

Dual-Wielding - Casters are supposed to be very dextrous so why can't they learn to fight with weapons in each hand? In fact, SK and Pal should have this too since they already know how to fight with weapons in one hand.

Alchemy - Come on, shouldn't anyone be able to mix some herbs together?

Tracking - Think of everything that would have to be remembered in casting a spell, those skills could logically be applied to learning how to track.

Hide - Every child already knows this one, so my toons should be able to eventually acquire this skill. (Ok, except for Ogres maybe)

Dual Wield -- As soon as this becomes a racial ability, i will happily argue for it to be added as an AA ability, secure in the knowledge that no level 51+ caster will waste AA points on the ability to dual wield, nor will an SK or pally bother dual weilding with a cap of 50, that would give a {DualWieldProbability (DWP) = (DualWieldSkill + Level) / 400} 25.25% chance to dual wield at 51, and a 28.75% chance to dual wield at level 65. Again, if SOE decided that this should be a racial ability, i would argue for it being allowed to all classes as an AA ability, secure in the knowledge that they would gain no benefit from it.

Alchemy -- Again, as soon as it becomes available as a racial ability, i would gladly support it being available as AA. Since AA abilities are gained at 51, alchemy aa would be capped at (level-50) * 5 just as shaman alchemy is gained at 25 and capped at (level-24) * 5. If you want to spend AA buying to ability to spend money to learn a broken skill, so be it.

Tracking -- When it becomes a racial ability. . . sure, you want tracking with no filters and capped at 50? i'd say 1AA ~ 10 points of tracking, 5 levels. When it becomes available as a racial ability.

Hide -- the only valid example in this arguement, it is already a racial ability for 3 races, can be raised to 200 by one class, and raised to 75 by 2 other classes. What'd you say, we'll submit it as one petition, forage cap raised by 25 - 2 levels, 2 aa each, hide cap raised by 25 - 2 levels 2 aa each. . . Oh wait, you wanted to exclude someone, guess we can't make it a general ability then, hmm Ogres have melee classes, can't make it melee archtype, they have priest classes, can't make it priest archtype, they have an int-caster hybrid, can't make it int-caster archtype or they'd get it, and we can't add it as a class ability to all the classes that ogres can't be, because then we're left with class-balance issues, and what to warriors, SKs, Shaman, and Beastlords get to balance it?

Looking back it was a weak point. May I withdraw it?

Sure, it's refreshing to find someone willing to admit when he's wrong.

[Railina]

So we give anyone, with the patience to earn AA, what we are Mostly all in agreeance is a class defining ability.

Class defining abilities are not available to all classes of 2 races, one race of which cannot become members of either of the classes for which it is a defining ability

All said and done I am opposed to it unless they do so with the intention of keeping dru/rangers the premier foragers, getting 2 to 4 times as much Dew, yew, tea, oak, acorns, whatever would make me a happy tradeskiller, and because of "inflation" ie druids and rangers will always get more, it won't harm the market, it'll keep it at status

Druids and rangers will always get more rare forages than anyone else, because they will get more total forages. If you get 1 yew leaf per 4 hours, how many do you think someone with 1/4 your skill will get? Nevertheless, it is a player's choice to spend her/his time as she/he wishes (within the limits of the EULA, PNP, and the other rules made by SOE)

Then shouldnt ALL classes have one of their abilities put up for all others to have?

On behalf of monks, I volunteer FD. Make it a general AA capped at 50, make it an AA "fast-cast" spell like egress for necros/SKs, and make monk FD never fail, or make it so resisted spells don't cause it to break. As a little extra bonus, maybe my chanter, ranger, cleric, paladin, shaman, and Rogue won't die as much, thereby begining to aliviate Lilosh's pet pointless timesink, CRs.

[Phabos]

So far as I am concerned, this discussion boils down to one simple question:

How clear should the lines be between various race/class combinations?

It's not about foraging, dual wield, etc. in and of themselves. To me, there's not even an issue of roleplaying or experience gained (the Ogre with the yew leaf example). As I stated previously, there are many permutations of what one can be. ALL are different in some regards. ALL have benefits, ALL have drawbacks. By adding benefits, even at a high level, we reduce the drawbacks, and blur the lines, even if just a bit.

I, for one, favor clear distinctions between each different combination. It's not ignorance, it's preference. Had I wanted to forage, I would have chosen a class/race that could. Most likely, I would have been forced to give up another skill. It's all about priorities and compromise. I read the possibilities, I analyzed the ups and downs, and I am not going to complain that x class or y race has it better. I feel I gave up that argument when I created my character. Foraging, in the long run, even if it were added (don't hold your breath) is not that big of a deal. I'm not going to quit, and I won't be upset. Heck, I may even buy it when the time comes. However, it will be one more piece of evidence that the barriers between combinations are eroding, and in my mind, that is disappointing.

Again, just my opinion.

Phabos
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr
201 Baking
192 Brewing
etc.

[Lilosh]

For all my sarcasm, and drawn-out debating, and pointless minutia, I agree with Phabos.


It's about classes and races asking for an ability that someone else has.
If you need a foraged item that badly, find a forager, or make one.


-Lilosh

[Sebilrazen]

Hide -- the only valid example in this arguement, it is already a racial ability for 3 races, can be raised to 200 by one class, and raised to 75 by 2 other classes. What'd you say, we'll submit it as one petition, forage cap raised by 25 - 2 levels, 2 aa each, hide cap raised by 25 - 2 levels 2 aa each. . . Oh wait, you wanted to exclude someone, guess we can't make it a general ability then, hmm Ogres have melee classes, can't make it melee archtype, they have priest classes, can't make it priest archtype, they have an int-caster hybrid, can't make it int-caster archtype or they'd get it, and we can't add it as a class ability to all the classes that ogres can't be, because then we're left with class-balance issues, and what to warriors, SKs, Shaman, and Beastlords get to balance it?

I think his comment about ogres was a joke, cuz they so big.

What you have to do to get your epic still has nothing to do with tradeskills or your "class defining" ability that 2 other entire races and a third class also get. I've never stated that forage was meaningless as it pertains to tradeskills, that was your arguement, and i do not concede you that point. Or are you worried that everyone will be running around with druid and ranger epics all of a sudden?

So, do all woodelf epics require forages? how's about Iksar? checked the bard too, they don't need it. last i checked necros don't need a feather, ripened heartfruit, emerald orange, or any other forage for their epic....2 classes <b>require</b> four no drop forages and one other that should be no drop as it has no other use, it just so also happens that these 2 <b>classes</b> are the ones that gain the ability, and can max it to full progression so it is a required part of our reportoire, as per it pertaining to tradeskills, it has been stated that you can gm any tradeskill with out a single foraged object(I will concede that for the trophies some need them)

I believe one of your original beefs was, forgive me if I don't quote exactly, or mistake something from page one of the thread, is that you feel that druids, rangers and to some smaller extent bards, iksar and wood elves have an inherent advantage when it comes to tradeskilling, or that we create a bottle neck because we have foraging and other classes don't...Even taking into account that some of the High end cultural stuff requires forages...and if you feel that doing a cultural tradeskill is a requirement of that race then only add forage to High elfs and halflings, only more restricted than Woodelves for high elves they have racial intelligence and wisdom boost but keep the base 50 for halflings...

There is NO tradeskill that requires you to use foraged items up to 250, just as I don't necessarily need an enchanter to enchant metal for me for pottery, I could do steins, don't need a cleric to imbue emeralds for me, could do cultural tailoring(at 1-3BDs per combine post 220ish, I won't go that route) Cultural was never intended as a skill up path, and you won't convince me it was, otherwise everyone would have gotten it you have choices, just as do others, so you have a forager, good, use him to his abilities

Which way do you want it? Is it a "class defining" ability that you are defending, or is it the time you've spent foraging that you place value on?

It is one in the same...yes I forage more often, yes I spend time doing it, we could have this arguement about enchanters and vials too, or enchanting metal

another thing...just because people have different opinions and thoughts on this subject than you, along with different experiences playing and doing tradeskills on their server, don't call anyone ignorant, it is very rude and uncool, if you re-read the "If your going to post in the primal scream forum" sticky I think you can read that part for yourself.

How bout an item, crafted by players, no fail, in a fletching kit, that requires you to combine one of each of the everyzone oldworld forages
(pod of water, fruit, berries, vegetables and roots) and a branch of sylvan oak from velious and a celestial essence

the item could be

Divining Rod
No drop
Lore
Primary slot
20 charges
effect forage(must be equipped)
all/all
required level of 51

that way it could perform the function desired, and using the forages you recieve, approx 25% or bazaar bought you can make another, yes you'd need to carry a fletching kit if you wanted to make one in the field, and you could only make one at a time and you'd need to be level 51, but I think something like this could work, the effective skill of the forage would be lvl 180ish so you do run the risk of not getting a forage everytime but I think it might be worth the risk? any thoughts?

[Railina]

So, do all woodelf epics require forages? how's about Iksar? checked the bard too, they don't need it. last i checked necros don't need a feather, ripened heartfruit, emerald orange, or any other forage for their epic....2 classes require four no drop forages and one other that should be no drop as it has no other use, it just so also happens that these 2 classes are the ones that gain the ability, and can max it to full progression so it is a required part of our reportoire, as per it pertaining to tradeskills, it has been stated that you can gm any tradeskill with out a single foraged object(I will concede that for the trophies some need them)

Class defining abilities are not available to all classes of 2 races, one race of which cannot become members of either of the classes for which it is a defining ability.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, there is no class including rangers or druids whose class definig ability is available to all classes of 2 other races. Hide for Rogues is the closest example, but there are two major differences. A) Rogue hide is also Evade, used during combat it has a chance to lower a rogue's "hate number" racial hide does not have this benefit. B) Rogue hide stacks with Sneak, such that a Rogue who is both sneaking and hiding is invisible, racial hide does not have this benefit, nor does that of other classes (including Rangers, who have both hide and sneak available as class abilities)

how's about Iksar? checked the bard too, they don't need it.

Actually, they do. All of the iksar's class progressive quests require rare kunark forages (Radiant Meteorite, Frontier Fool's Gold, Mud Crabs, Deadbone Barley, etc. None of which are available as drops off any mob)

last i checked necros don't need a feather

No, but shaman do, it is an ingredient in an alchemy potion. And this is not interdependance, because niether druids nor rangers require anything from a Shaman to use any of their class specific abilities.

as per it pertaining to tradeskills, it has been stated that you can gm any tradeskill with out a single foraged object(I will concede that for the trophies some need them)

What good is GMing a tradeskill if you still can't make your race's cultural items? The progression to 250 is not the only goal in this game, nor is the progression to 65, there is no way to "win" you can't "beat" EQ. And, while High Elves may have the option to hunt mobs or groundspawns for morning dew, which they require for every racial combine, Ogres, Dark Elves, Humans, Halflings, Barbarians, Half Elves, and High Elves don't have the ability to forage their zone specific items for Faithstone/Spiritstone Essences. Do you really think The tribunal expect their Shaman to go begging some Druid or Ranger, let alone Iksar, to scrounge up a turnip so they can pray to be returned home?

and can max it to full progression so it is a required part of our reportoire

This statement is a logical fallacy, being able to do something, or even being able to max a skill, does not make that skill required. (Needing it for your epic doesn't either. As a monk i need to fight and kill a mob in PoSky (old PoA), but sadly VI neglected to give me the ability to get myself there, let alone the force necessary to successfully complete the encounter.)

Which way do you want it? Is it a "class defining" ability that you are defending, or is it the time you've spent foraging that you place value on?

It is one in the same...yes I forage more often, yes I spend time doing it, we could have this arguement about enchanters and vials too, or enchanting metal

No, it isn't the same thing, if you are defending it as a class defining ability, i will point you the statement -->
There is no class, including rangers or druids, whose class definig ability is available to all classes of 2 other races.
While if you are defending the time you spend foraging as being of value, i will not disagree with you, i will merely point out that: Druids and rangers will always get more rare forages than anyone else, because they will get more total forages. If you get 1 yew leaf per 4 hours, how many do you think someone with 1/4 your skill will get? Nevertheless, it is a player's choice to spend her/his time as she/he wishes (within the limits of the EULA, PNP, and the other rules made by SOE) Which means that anyone else who intends to do this for profit will spend more time for the same result, and anyone who do this to keep from lining your pockets will spend more time for the same result.

I, for one, favor clear distinctions between each different combination. It's not ignorance, it's preference.

The only valid arguement against allowing forage as an AA ability i've seen in this thread yet, however: Allowing people to earn and spend AA on various abilities is about custonizing your character and playing the game as you wish, what you choose to spend them on is a matter of preference.

Had I wanted to forage, I would have chosen a class/race that could. Most likely, I would have been forced to give up another skill.

Because it is available as a racial ability, and humans of the same classes get no racial abilities, i must insist that you give up nothing or very little indeed for this ability, certainly not any other skills.

then only add forage to High elfs and halflings, only more restricted than Woodelves for high elves they have racial intelligence and wisdom boost but keep the base 50 for halflings...

high elves they have racial intelligence and wisdom boost

I exerped the above phrase because it outlines a specific misunderstanding which has occured twice in this thread, that high racial atributes are balance by anything other than low racial attributes. Yes, higheleves have higher int/wis than woodelves, however they have lower strength, stamina, dex, and agi, because

Thought they have physical traits in common with Wood Elves, High Elves are much more developed in the ways of the mind. Pale and thin, they prefer to spend their time exercising the confines of the mind, and not the body.

The other instance, much earlier in the thread, was an affirmation that Ogres and Trolls traded thier high strength and stamina, for the inability to forage, rather than low int, wis, and cha.

we could have this arguement about enchanters and vials too, or enchanting metal

We are. How about a little Class Balance among tradeskills

another thing...just because people have different opinions and thoughts on this subject than you, along with different experiences playing and doing tradeskills on their server, don't call anyone ignorant, it is very rude and uncool, if you re-read the "If your going to post in the primal scream forum" sticky I think you can read that part for yourself.

Appologies, the post has been edited to reflect the my desire to point out that is the arguements being presented and not the people presenting them which i view as blatantly ignorant. (ignorant, for the word ignore, as in this care, ignoring facts contrary to one's claims, no matter how many times it is presented.)

I mean they let us share racial abilities via aa, so class *could* fall in line

A perfect example of a point which has already been conceded by a person who continues to argue the exact same point.

[Railina]

Hide -- the only valid example in this arguement, it is already a racial ability for 3 races, can be raised to 200 by one class, and raised to 75 by 2 other classes. What'd you say, we'll submit it as one petition, forage cap raised by 25 - 2 levels, 2 aa each, hide cap raised by 25 - 2 levels 2 aa each. . . Oh wait, you wanted to exclude someone, guess we can't make it a general ability then, hmm Ogres have melee classes, can't make it melee archtype, they have priest classes, can't make it priest archtype, they have an int-caster hybrid, can't make it int-caster archtype or they'd get it, and we can't add it as a class ability to all the classes that ogres can't be, because then we're left with class-balance issues, and what to warriors, SKs, Shaman, and Beastlords get to balance it?

I think his comment about ogres was a joke, cuz they so big.

I took the entire arguement he presented to be sarcasm, and kept that in mind when i posted a response, i had thought it was obvious in both cases.

[Sebilrazen]

Quote:
how's about Iksar? checked the bard too, they don't need it.

Actually, they do. All of the iksar's class progressive quests require rare kunark forages (Radiant Meteorite, Frontier Fool's Gold, Mud Crabs, Deadbone Barley, etc. None of which are available as drops off any mob)

Nice job taking something out of context, It almost slipped by me too, yes the Iksar newb/progressive quests do require forage, but the fact is you took that quote incomplete from one that said that they don't need them for all their epics, and a feather is a ground spawn in 2 moon zones I believe, i don't recall which ones, but I remember picking it up, it was bright yellow with white veining..possible someone dropped it? not sure, i just destroy them unless someone asks me to save it

No, but shaman do, it is an ingredient in an alchemy potion. And this is not interdependance, because niether druids nor rangers require anything from a Shaman to use any of their class specific abilities.

re: feather, alchemy isn't a class specific ability anymore, it's a class specific tradeskill akin to the racial one of gnomes, and they don't <b>Need </b> to make that potion, it's one of their choices

And, while High Elves may have the option to hunt mobs or groundspawns for morning dew, which they require for every racial combine, Ogres, Dark Elves, Humans, Halflings, Barbarians, Half Elves, and High Elves don't have the ability to forage their zone specific items for Faithstone/Spiritstone Essences. Do you really think The tribunal expect their Shaman to go begging some Druid or Ranger, let alone Iksar, to scrounge up a turnip so they can pray to be returned home?

the vast majority of these zone items for spiritstones(a tradeskill item, not class, not race) are now groundspawns, picked some up today on my way to check out gukta, the speckled moldy mushroom is orange stemmed and blue topped usually on the islands next to the PoK book, kinda hard to see in the swampy darkness

I've said it before and i'll say it again, there is no class including rangers or druids whose class definig ability is available to all classes of 2 other races. Hide for Rogues is the closest example, but there are two major differences. A) Rogue hide is also Evade, used during combat it has a chance to lower a rogue's "hate number" racial hide does not have this benefit. B) Rogue hide stacks with Sneak, such that a Rogue who is both sneaking and hiding is invisible, racial hide does not have this benefit, nor does that of other classes (including Rangers, who have both hide and sneak available as class abilities)

really? wood elves all have hide, and all vahshir have sneak, halflings have hide and sneak, and the last time i checked, when i hide and sneak, i become effectively invisible, albeit with a good chance of being spotted because of the 50 cap, so according to your conventions of 2 races having the class ability of another, then everyone should get hide, and sneak, the only part of your argument regarding it that is still valid is that in these combination of races(half elf, halfling, vah shir) they can each pick a class that has that ability, but I still don't feel that since the Iksar can do it, and nobody in their race has it as a class ability is good enough to say 'lets give everyone forage'

oh and about 'Evade' good, the class that excells in it gets a bonus since the other classes and races have it, so where is my bonus for foraging, If you collapse it down out of time and expand along the number of times foraging the 50 cappers will still get the same ratio of rares as I do according to the forage table/RNG, where as, I, being more in tune with nature and my surroundings should get the more desirable things more often, according to your arguement regarding 'Evade'

[Railina]

Nice job taking something out of context, It almost slipped by me too, yes the Iksar newb/progressive quests do require forage, but the fact is you took that quote incomplete from one that said that they don't need them for all their epics

The iksar progressive quests are, essentially, "racial Epics" since it would be horribly unfair and imbalancing to require that all warriors, necros, shadowknights, beastlords, monks, and shaman use foraged items for their epics, as iksar are the only members of any of those classes with that ability.

and a feather is a ground spawn in 2 moon zones I believe, i don't recall which ones, but I remember picking it up, it was bright yellow with white veining..possible someone dropped it?

Yes, that is exactly what happened, these do not groundspawn anywhere, but they are a very common forage in most outdoor luclin zones, for whatever arcane reason.

re: feather, alchemy isn't a class specific ability anymore, it's a class specific tradeskill akin to the racial one of gnomes, and they don't Need to make that potion, it's one of their choices

Rangers and druids don't need their epics either, that's something they choose to do or not do, but your arguement hinges on the fact that if they choose to do their epics, then they need forage.

the vast majority of these zone items for spiritstones(a tradeskill item, not class, not race) are now groundspawns, picked some up today on my way to check out gukta, the speckled moldy mushroom is orange stemmed and blue topped usually on the islands next to the PoK book, kinda hard to see in the swampy darkness

no, those were the innothule mushrooms and swamp vegetables used for Troll cultural temper, which have always been groudspawns, and are used in innothule essence, i was reading across the wrong line on the brewing page. None of the others, however, and ground spawn anywhere. Glow lichen, Bag of sea salt, Cactus pulp, frost turnip, black root, cinnamon stick, or surefall sap. (so strike Ogres from the list, ans strike Halfelves as well, i had forgotten that they cannot be either clerics of shaman, the point still remains valid)

when i hide and sneak, i become effectively invisible

This is incorrect, when a non-rogue is both hiding (successfully), and sneaking (successfully), they are just as invisible as if only hiding (successfully) when they begin to move, hide breaks, and sneak only works while you are outside the "view" of a mob or NPC

I still don't feel that since the Iksar can do it, and nobody in their race has it as a class ability is good enough to say 'lets give everyone forage'

You argue that forage is a class defining ability, so it should not be available for purchase as an AA, my arguement is solely that forage is a racial ability available to many classes, and therefore cannot be considered class defining. To better illustrate this point, let me list several abilities which really ARE class defining, so you can see how they differ.
Beastlord (hybrid) -- beastlord pets (originally summoned by use of an ability, rather than a spell and persistent through zones -this has been nerfed in order to make changes which make the class more viable, thy have lost distinction in favor of utility-) H2H (from monks) dots/slows/heals (from shaman)
Bard (hybrid of all classes, or unique you pick) -- Songs which can be cast while fighting/running/whatever (unique) songs which mimic many spells (hybrid from casters) forage, hide, sneak, dual wield, etc (hybrid from melee)
Monk (pure melee) -- FD skill, Mend, special attacks
Necro -- lifetaps, skelly pets, massive dots
Shaman -- best slows, stat buffs
Enchanters -- best haste, mez, charm, mind buffs, illusions
Rogues -- lockpick, trap skills, backstab, evade, hide-sneak stacking
Rangers -- best tracking (druid and warrior abilities as a hybrid)
druids -- some ports, animal charms, wolf form
clerics -- best healing and HP buffs
warriors -- highest HP/STA ratio, highest mitigation/ac ratio
SKs -- HT and agro generating spells (hybrid abilities)
Paladins -- LoH, bonuses vs undead (hybrid abilities)
Magician -- Summoned items
Wizard -- planar (PoH/PoSky) and other unique ports, lure-line nukes

None of these are available as racial abilities, these abilities are only available by playing the specific class for which they are class-defining (Hybrids share some portion of the abilities of their root classes, but all classes have at lease one ability which is not shared by their hybrids, and hybrids all have at least one ability which is not shared by their root class)

oh and about 'Evade' good, the class that excells in it gets a bonus since the other classes and races have it,

Evade is class defining and is not available to any other classes, forage is not class defining, and is available to all classes of 2 entire races. Evade can be used at a hide skill of (1) but only by a Rogue it is not a function of having a higher cap, it is a fuction of being a Rogue.

so where is my bonus for foraging, If you collapse it down out of time and expand along the number of times foraging the 50 cappers will still get the same ratio of rares as I do according to the forage table/RNG

Yes, because forage is not a class defining ability it is merely a difference in degree, based on the current skill of your character in the ability, rather than a difference in kind, based on the class you chose to play.

, where as, I, being more in tune with nature and my surroundings should get the more desirable things more often, according to your arguement regarding 'Evade'

Evade is a difference in kind from Hide, not a difference in degree.

An example using the hide ability of a difference in degree is that a rogue will successfully hide more often, just as a ranger or druid will successfully forage more often. There is no example using the forage ability of a difference in kind, because forage is not a class defining ability

[Moraganth]

Hmmm.. reincarnate... think of the posabilities there....

Oh, and i agree, VI/Sony has already made too many classes too similar. Bleeding skills a few class have to others just makes this more like UO, everyone will end up the same. Now if they had an aa skill for rangers, bards, and druids to be able to have a better chance at rares, that'd be cool.. but it shouldn't cost many points to get it.

[Sebilrazen]

This is my last post in this thread, although I do enjoy the discussion, we keep citing the same reasons, and keep arguing the same opposition, we have differing opinions and we're both stubborn. I prefer that the characters remain as different as they are now, and you apparently want to lessen the distinction even further....I guess I like fruit salad(each fruit being distinctly recognizable when I eat it) and you like a smoothie(same fruit, just indistinguishable from each other because you tossed it into a blender and hit puree)

Cultural Epics?...Okay...fine for races that have no other cultural tradeskill, lets put the balance back in and allow iksar and wood elves forage 200 ....If I was a wood elf I'd be upset over this to no end, they don't have a progressive quest resulting in higher end gear(that I know of) but the iksar have both cultural smithing and these cultural 'epics'...but then we return to the argument that you should only need to give high elves forage to alleviate the "I need this component for my cultural, but I can't pick it up off of the ground, unless I see it, but could kill mobs for it, but don't care too"....we could also allow balance by putting forage in for shaman...I'm not opposed to this as it would make sense (witchdoctor goes into the woods looking for some mystical ingredients for his potions/draughts)...but not clerics....druids, being priest class "work with priests in the story concept, we learned how to heal from the religious" move the essences for the faithstones all inline make them from zonespecific fish or a groundspawn, not a foraged item(<b>Note</b> this would also alleviate the all classes of 2 races have it, one of which, none of their classes get it as an ability conundrum)

I don't believe in Homogenity unless it's my milk, i hate when milk seperates into layers eeesh, i like difference, so do the players/SoE(look at the new armor dye coming) I know their are people that agree with your opinion, and people that (I pray to Karana) agree with mine. We won't agree on this, agreed? Now I'm going to go play, you know how many combines we could've done for tradeskills/mobs farmed for components in the time we debated this?