No Jewel Craft Mastery AA for Non-Enchanters?

[Flendon]

Well since my chanter is only 25 and I don't do any of my tradeskills on her I never realized about this. I mainly use her just to enchant metal. If I had known this you can trust I would have learned JC on her and not my main. Since my main has such better stats though and can benefit from KEI it would be much more preferable to have this ability for her.

[Elfdruidess]

"There was a pretty good debate about this, and some internal discussion within SOE about it as well" says Nolrog.

Oh I believe it. No doubt there was. But I imagine the debate was decided by:

Some enchanters might lose access to titles because they no longer have 24 AA in class abilites
Enchanters might complain that this is another 'nerf' of their class
Enchanters might ask for an AA point refund
It will take much time to change all the AA records if we convert it to an Omens AA without a refund

and did not rest on gameplay notions like:

Jewelers will need to buy enchanted metals from jewelers anyway (augments don't need enchanting)
Jewelry should be an enchanter-only ability like Poisonmaking or Alchemy
Enchanters need more utility

I believe it's a practical decision too. But it's not an AA issue.

They want OoW tradeskill Augs to remain as class specific as it can be. So the JC combine becomes a very much "chanter-prefered" combine.

I think /feedback is not gonna change SOE's mind. Only the rate at which OoW tradeskill Augs are entering the game is gonna change their minds.

By the time the OoW tradeskill Augs become relatively common items in the game, and SOE can feel safe that the Augs won't unbalance the game, then they may consider opening the JC mastery to all.

It's not a tradeskill balance issue. It's not even a class balance issue. It's an ITEMS balance issue.

[Taadieri]

How many of you actually cared before the tradeskill augs came out?

The restriction of JCM aa to enchanters has been a source of ongoing debate since the release of Luclin. Many tradeskillers felt it was unfair to single one class out to have such an overwhelming edge in this skill. And many enchanters were unhappy to have one of the limited number of class specific aa's they got devoted to what is basically fluff - not central to their role in groups, raids or guilds.

Even some tradeskilling enchanters were not happy because they would rather specialize in smithing, tailoring or brewing and felt that SOE was forcing them to be Jewelers. Those enchanters who had already GMed a different tradeskill were even more disadvantaged since there was no option at that time to GM a second tradeskill or to switch specialties.

Both the value of the new augment combines and the offering of mastery aa sets for the other tradeskills have re-opened an issue that was something of a dead horse previously, but it is not a new issue and is not driven solely by the augments.

[Aalar]

I will add my voice to /feedback in game. JC is not a class restricted skill.

Aalar

[Qhue]

Its part of the original Vision of what an Enchanter is

Many people, myself included, believed the original description of the Enchanter class as the class that (in part) used spells to enchant magic objects for use by our allies. I originally made a gnome enchanter because I wanted to be able to Tinker and to craft magical items. I reasoned that at the highest levels the combination of engineering and enchantment would provide great assets to me and to those people I gamed with.

Now granted this was in 1998, during one of the Beta Phases and waaaaay before any of us knew what the real story was. When release came Enchanters had the spells to enchant metal bars and to make really useless enchanted jewelry, but rogues had an inimplemented skill to make poisons and the shaman alchemy skill was bugged for nearly 2 years.

Acting on complaints from Enchanters about the inability to Enchant anything Jewelcrafting was overhauled into the form most people know today and that's when the problem began. Jewelcraft, while still the only way in which an Enchanter could Enchant objects, was a skill that anyone could learn. Enchanters had a natural advantage in making jewelry because only they could enchant the metal bars necessary for magical jewelry. Had a simple thing been done at the time, namely making the Enchanted bars NO_DROP, then that would have been the end of that.

But that wasn't the end and people who wanted to make magical items could by just having an enchanter-bot cast the spells for them or much later buy them in bulk from the Bazaar. This presented a problem, especially as Alchemy was taking off and poison was undergoing its many overhauls. The original intent that Enchanters be the class that made Magical Items was blown away... subseqent development teams had made powerful magical items craftable for all the various tradeskills which required no or token Enchanter input. This entire tradeskill community on this site grew and flourished and Jewelcraft, because it hadn't been updated in years, became a curiosity for only the most casual gamers who couldnt afford or obtain nicer items.

It came down, at one point, to two possibilities to place the Enchanter back into Enchanting :

1) Do the right thing and make all the metal bars and mana vials No_Drop so that any recipe that needed them would require an enchanter to make it.

2) Give the Enchanters an advantage in Jewelcrafting over everyone else to reflect that Enchanting was still a class attribute.


Well the train long since left the station on option 1, the recipes were too muddled across the board for such a radical design shift at that stage and so the only viable option was option 2, thus the Jewelcraft Mastery AA was part of the Enchanter Class AAs in Luclin. Of course this meant nothing at the time because no one really wanted or needed things to be crafted with Jewelcraft as the tradeskill was continually overlooked. Every expansion there would be a token JC section that expanded out the list of recipes, but nothing was really worthwhile compared to the advantages of Smithing, Tailoring etc.

In Planes of Power there was a brief return to the glory of having crafted jewelry created from rare components, only this time the enchanting spells were spread out over several classes with the Class ability of Enchanters being that only they could learn ALL the enchanting spells while other classes each got a small subset. You would think that the Enchanter Class AA ability combined with the ability to enchant any gem on demand would make Jewelcraft again a solidly Enchanter ability, but enchanting-bots were common at this point and it took no effort to become 250 in JC even with a bot. It might take 3 hours if you were really lazy to hit 250 with JC, and since now anyone could reach 250 in any tradeskill everyone had 250 JC within a day of buying the necessary rank of New Tanaan Crafting Mastery.

Ahhh but even still Enchanters had that AA ability! Well Jewelcraft Mastery was broken for about 10 months during the Planes of Power era. It didnt work at all and because it was a passive ability it was hard to prove that it didn't work and even harder to get it fixed. So when all was said and done Enchanters were no better off for having bought the darn thing and the uber crafter of magical items was as likely to be a Halfling Druid as it was someone who actually had class spells to enchant magical items.


Fast forward to today. The biggest buzz in tradeskilling are the new tradeskilled Augments. Items which can be made much better through the use of tradeskills. Its already a slap in the face to the Enchanter class that this REQUIRES Rogues and Shaman but does NOT require Enchanters. The one saving grace is that the hardest step of the process, the riskiest step as it can result in the item being destroyed is the Jewelcrafting step and that failure risk is mitigated by the Jewelcraft Mastery AA ability.


Jewelcraft Mastery is a class ability of the Enchanter class. Until such a time as the developers find a way to cement an Enchanting role for the Enchanter class in the same way that Alchemy is locked for Shaman and Poisonmaking is locked for Rogues then there needs to be at least some concrete advantage for Enchanters in the making and crafting of magical items and Jewelcraft Mastery is it.

The lines might be more blurred now that Mastery abilities exist for other tradeskills, but it still remains a natural and intended advantage for the Enchanter class.

There were many ways that they could have fixed the problem along the line, but they chose not to take those easy alternatives in the interest of giving people at least some facility in making non-magical jewelry which then spiraled out of control.

You should be glad that you can even learn Jewelcraft and that it ISNT locked to Enchanters only as Alchemy, Tinkering and Poisonmaking are locked.

[Ciorstan]

Well since my chanter is only 25 and I don't do any of my tradeskills on her I never realized about this.

In order to get JCM3 on your enchanter, you'd have to have levelled her up to level 59 (which is the requirement for the TCM AA's), got 36AA's total on her, as it is a class skill and has pre-requisites (6 in General, 12 in Archetype, 18 for level 3). At level 59 she'd be eligible to have KEI cast on her, and would actually be darn close to casting it herself.

I have both a 66 Paladin and a 66 enchanter. The enchanter started out as a mule on my account specifically for jewelcraft. She was the fourth on the server to hit 250 during velious. I ended up splitting her off to her own account about 2 years ago to 2 box her (and just bought computer upgrades so her system runs eq in a better manner, heh). One addiction feeds many.

As for this debate, I'm not entirely sure where I fall in it. You could count all of my time levelling her which was always for the next step in jewelcrafting. She was split off during PoP for levelling with the paladin.

I needed her. She can enchant metals, which no other class can do. She can make mana vials, which no other class can do. She can imbue all of the diamonds, which no other class can do (although some classes can do some...). Overall, she was and is, far more suited to jewelcrafting than any other class, including my paladin. Not to mention that my wisdom on the paladin can never even come close to her intelligence. From the beginning of the game, through each expansion, she was far better suited for jewelcrafting than any other class and remains so. Is it a class restricted skill. No. However, there is plenty of evidence that enchanters were always meant to have an edge in jewelcrafting, simply because it is enchanters that have received all of the spells required.

In the end, it probably won't matter. I'm certainly not going to rage about losing it to other classes. Or rail against the unfairness of it all. It is, after all, a game. SoE will do as they feel is the right way and in the end, it is their decisions we will play by. I was surprised and happy that they offered the other TCM's and that would have been good enough for me, even if I had no enchanter.

[Twistagain]

Regardless of the debate, some FACTS still remain:

1) Anyone with the inclination, time, and a small amount of plat (I know this is relative...but it's not a huge fortune by any stretch) can become a 250 Jewelcrafter...regardless of race/class.

2) Anyone can attempt these JC combines.

3) As a Vah Shir Beastlord with 250 JC (and nearly a 1750 club member), I will always have to ask a Rogue or Shaman to do the final 2 steps...but it will be a cold day in you-know-where before I *EVER* ask anyone else to do an unrestricted combine for me...AAs or not...due simply to principle.

And, as the previous history lesson about JC and the enchanters' role in it suggests, the only thing that keeping the AA restricted will continue to do is make sure that people will bot enchanters for it. I currently have 2 level 29 clerics (to different dieties) and a 49 enchanter for nothing more than tradeskills.

Now, people would ask me, "Why not use existing enchanters/clerics to do the imbues/enchants for you?" My answer is twofold:
1) A lot of people do not want to be bothered, or want to be paid outrageous amounts, to cast the spell. In fact, many of them never got the spell in the first place. Nearly every PoP imbue I've had done, I had to get the materials for it AND for the spell...just to give to the person from whom I request it.
2) Name me one tradeskill item that those people would have to come to *ME* for...

[Verdandi]

Shamans are the only ones capable of doing alchemy. The combines will not work for non-shamans. Ditto for poisonmaking with rogues and tinkering with gnomes. Anyone can do jewelcraft combines. Any comparisons between jewelcraft and those skills are therefore pointless.

Lots of skills require components that enchanters must enchant. Smithing, tailoring, and others require enchanters for making components. That does not mean that smithing and tailoring are meant for enchanters more than they are for other classes. It doesn't mean those are restricted skills.

Many skills required foraged ingredients. As a barbarian shaman, I cannot get them for myself. I have to work with a foraging race/class. Does that mean that all the skills with recipes for foraged ingredients are restricted? No, that's silly. They just require people working together, to encourage interdependence and limit the availability of some ingredients.

I would wholeheartedly support offering the jewelcraft AAs to all classes, offering enchanters a refund on those points, and giving them an alternative AA skill to compensate.

[Sigrah]

How many of you actually cared before the tradeskill augs came out?

Many of us cared about this well before OOW came out. Many of us have had this as a sore spot since day 1 of Luclin and the introduction of AA's. When Luclin came out, they gave JCM as a class skill to Enchanters and made many of us mad. Not only did they give a mastery in a general trade skill to one specific class, they also didn't make trade skill mastery AA's for the other 6. It's been and off and on issue since then. With OOW out, it has only reignited it. While many of us are happy that they finally gave us Trade Skill Mastery AA's, a good chunk of us are still ticked off that Jewel Craft was denied to non-Enchanters, most especially those of us with 250 in all trades.

[Lothay]

Moved.

At this point, the conversation is really just venting.

As such, it belongs in the PSR.

Moved.

[Ciorstan]

I hope no one took my post as venting.

My first intent was to explain to the paladin with the 25 enchanter that JCM3 would not have been available to her 25 enchanter, more as education than anything else.

Then I explained why I understood some of the reasons they offered it to enchanters, and them only.

I thought I also made it clear that I wasn't going to flip one way or the other. I understand both sides of the issue.

As for having to have a mule for JC...she was a mule. I made her so I could enchant my own metals in Original EQ. She was a mule until Luclin. She now has her own account, is 2boxed with my paladin, they are the same level. I play her alone sometimes when I want to...she is an alt, nothing less. She is her own personality. And yes, I ended up doing all the tradeskills on her (except brewing, which I did on the paladin) because it was so much easier to do them on her. Even if they made my paladin able to obtain it, I wouldn't get it.

/Shrug. I meant to disrespect, if any was taken from my post at least.

Edit: as for the class interdependency. I cannot imbue my own gems such as emeralds. I use others to do that for me, and offer trade in kind. I have several friends who do this with me. I cannot forage any of the items I needed for the tailoring robes. I cannot forage any of the items I needed for my racial smithing. I can't forage any of what I needed for brewing or baking. And I will never be able to forage or imbue those types of gems. I don't rage about it...I just pay for it, or offer trade in kind. Works well for me I have a little level 17 wood elf rogue...she doesn't forage very well...and 1 mule becoming their own account was enough, heh.

[Vihanna]

Speaking as an enchanter, I'd have no problem at all opening up the JC AAs to all classes, so long as enchanters were given a replacement class AA in exchange.

I agree that the situation as it stands is silly. I think it's just an issue of Sony painting itself into a corner, and it's not really high enough priority in their eyes to do anything about.

[Ngreth Thergn]

We do not feel any disrespect was given

We just move posts that seem to be venting to the area for... venting No worries at all

[Eileah]

I agree that the situation as it stands is silly. I think it's just an issue of Sony painting itself into a corner, and it's not really high enough priority in their eyes to do anything about.

That's because we are lowly customers, they have no concern for what we want or need. They never have, and judging by their current actions, they never will.

[Lothay]

Sony Bashing is a no-no. Stop now.

If you have a beef with Sony, take it up with them, on theri site, not here.