No Jewel Craft Mastery AA for Non-Enchanters?

[Sigrah]

Why was JC Mastery left out for non-enchanters? Last I checked, JC was a full fledged trade skill opened to all classes unlike Make Poison and Alchemy.

[Sylphan]

Most likely it wasn't planned this way. Some programmer probably wanted to include it for everyone, but decided it would be too much work to move it out of the Enchanter list and into the Omens list. So... we'll just have to live with it.

[Nolrog]

It certainly wasn't left out because it was too much work. There was a pretty good debate about this, and some internal discussion within SOE about it as well, but in the end, the developers felt that this should stay chanter only.

If you feel strongly that it should be open to everyone, please send /feedback in game.

[Sigrah]

It certainly wasn't left out because it was too much work. There was a pretty good debate about this, and some internal discussion within SOE about it as well, but in the end, the developers felt that this should stay chanter only.

If you feel strongly that it should be open to everyone, please send /feedback in game.

I appreciate the response Nolrog, but very much disagree it should be "chanter only". If Jewel Craft were limited to Enchanters as a Class Specific skill like Alchemy is to Shamen and Make Poison is to Rogues, I wouldn't have brought it up. However, Jewel Craft is a general trade skill available to all classes and I fail to see why Enchanters should be the only ones with an AA skill towards this.

The Enchanter spell line up may favor them being Jewel Crafters much more than other classes, but I could turn around and say Fletching favors Rangers much more than any other class in that they get the most use out of bows and arrows and Baking favors Druids and Rangers much more because they can forage/track down ingrediants much more easily than other classes can.

Case and point, I think just because a general trade skill favors a class much more than another doesn't mean said class should be the only one with an AA skill mastery towards that trade. I won't speak for others who are 250 in all trade skills (1750 club), but to me personally, it's a slap in the face to have put in all the time, money, experience, and energy in getting to 250 in all trade skills only to be denied ultimate mastery in 1 of those fields simply because I'm a Beastlord instead of an Enchanter. I'm sure I'm not the only crazy soul who's been thinking "I wanna reach Level 3 in all 7 trade skill mastery AAs" with OOW out now. I certainly will be /feedbacking this, but I hope you read this and revisit the issue on your end at some point in the near future.

Sigrah Silvermane

[Nolrog]

I appreciate the response Nolrog, but very much disagree it should be "chanter only". If Jewel Craft were limited to Enchanters as a Class Specific skill like Alchemy is to Shamen and Make Poison is to Rogues, I wouldn't have brought it up. However, Jewel Craft is a general trade skill available to all classes and I fail to see why Enchanters should be the only ones with an AA skill towards this.

I certainly will be /feedbacking this, but I hope you read this and revisit the issue on your end at some point in the near future.

Sigrah,

I agree 100% with your sentiments. Those were among the arguments that we were making in favor of opening it up to everyone.

Please note, that I am not a SOE employee. I did not make the decision. In fact, I was in the group arguing that it should be open to everyone. I'm just a guy who helps collect tradeskill issues that the community comes up with, and passes them on to Brenlo, Ash and Ky, to ensure they are not missed.

The only way we can get SOE to revisit the decision, is for everyone who disagrees to send /feedback. Then the developers will be able to see how strongly it is desired across Norrath.

Cheers,

N

[Kakg]

I'm going to have to come out on the opposite side on this one and I'm going to try to choose my words really carefully. But do please recognise that this thread is not really constructive discussion about tradeskills but a moan about enchanters having JCM when no-one else does and as such deserves to be move to Primal Scream where it should join all the other threads of the same ilk.


Why should JCM be available to everyone?

Poison Making and Alchemy are not available to everyone but no-one moans about that........ well, no-one moans about poisons except rogues themselves (understandably) and alchemy is moaned about but not as much as jewelcraft.

Jewelcraft is an enchanter specific skill. Just because other classes have the option to train in it too does not change that basic fact. Jewelcraft belongs to enchanters just as much as Poison Making belongs to Rogues and Alchemy belongs to Shaman.

If you were to put a case for JCM to be available to all classes then you should also make a case for those other tradeskills to be opened too.

If you want JCM then the solution is exactly the same as when you want to be able to do alchemy or poison making - level your own alt. Nothing is preventing you from doing so and passing components between alts.

To be totally honest I think quite a lot of enchanters were just as surprised as you that JCM wasn't given out to all classes and would prefer that it had been in order to stop all this rather silly moaning. I certainly am one of them.

Sorry if this seems like a rant back but as an enchanter I get a little tired of reading this same circular argument anytime the subject of AA's are brought up and ai can;t help wondering that if everyone is given JCM then the next moan in line will be why Spell: Enchant Miscellaneous Object is not given out to everyone.

[Sharrow]

Why should JCM be available to everyone?

Because everyone is capable of gaining points in this skill up to 250 if they so desire.

Poison Making and Alchemy are not available to everyone but no-one moans about that........ well, no-one moans about poisons except rogues themselves (understandably) and alchemy is moaned about but not as much as jewelcraft.

No one moans about those because (unless you are of those classes) you can't level those tradeskills at all. The tradeskill mastery AAs seem incomplete to anyone who has Jewelcraft at 250. If jewelcraft was an 'enchanter only' tradeskill, then I doubt there would be any moaning, but it's not. The JCM AAs are enchanter only, that is where the difference lies.

Jewelcraft belongs to enchanters just as much as Poison Making belongs to Rogues and Alchemy belongs to Shaman.

It's not a class-specific tradeskill, like poison-making or alchemy. People have a problem seeing the logic as to why the tradeskill mastery AAs for this tradeskill (which all classes have access to) are restricted to Enchanters.

If you were to put a case for JCM to be available to all classes then you should also make a case for those other tradeskills to be opened too.

Jewelcraft isn't a class-specific tradeskill. The JCM AAs are class-specific.

If you want JCM then the solution is exactly the same as when you want to be able to do alchemy or poison making - level your own alt. Nothing is preventing you from doing so and passing components between alts

This is true. You'll probably like xp grinding by the time you get the mastery AAs for your other tradeskills, so you may as well level up a chanter to 50-something and get them a handfull of AAs too =)

[Maevenniia]

Jewelcraft is an enchanter specific skill. Just because other classes have the option to train in it too does not change that basic fact. Jewelcraft belongs to enchanters just as much as Poison Making belongs to Rogues and Alchemy belongs to Shaman.

Ummmmmm............no, it isn't.

No one is arguing that enchanters don't have an advantage in JC, being that they can enchant their own metals, make their own mana vials, imbue their own raw diamonds....and I for one am fine with that. If I want to do those things for myself, I will indeed level up a chanter alt (although I usually just go to the bazaar or ask a friend.)

However, JC is not a class-restricted skill. It does not "belong" to Enchanters. Only the JCM AA is class-restricted, and that's the issue.

Unforyunately, Enchanters seem to think we are all chanter-bashing. WE AREN'T.

In fact, most of the people who are complaining about the JCM restriction also acknowledge 2 things need to happen, to be fair to chanters:

1) Enchanters need to have their 18AA refunded, so they can decide if they want to re-purchase it or not

2) Enchanters need to be given a replacement class AA, since frankly, they were gipped out of a 'real' one.





NB: just because I have a 'moderator' tag, don't make assumptions. this is my opinion, and not that of EQTC

[Nolrog]

I'm going to have to come out on the opposite side on this one and I'm going to try to choose my words really carefully. But do please recognise that this thread is not really constructive discussion about tradeskills but a moan about enchanters having JCM when no-one else does and as such deserves to be move to Primal Scream where it should join all the other threads of the same ilk.

It's still in the constructive discussion phase. Once it degrades into primal screaming/flames, I'm sure it will be moved.

Sorry if this seems like a rant back but as an enchanter I get a little tired of reading this same circular argument anytime the subject of AA's are brought up and ai can;t help wondering that if everyone is given JCM then the next moan in line will be why Spell: Enchant Miscellaneous Object is not given out to everyone.

I don't consider your reply to be a rant. I don't agree with your arugments, but you certainly were not ranting. I have yet to see anyone argue that the enchant spells should be given to anyone else. Personally, I would not support that at all (not that me supporting or not supporting has any real bearing on what actually happens. LOL.) Those spells allways have been and should always remain enchanter only.

[Twistagain]

Jewelcraft is an enchanter specific skill. Just because other classes have the option to train in it too does not change that basic fact. Jewelcraft belongs to enchanters just as much as Poison Making belongs to Rogues and Alchemy belongs to Shaman.

I don't understand this.

In order to make the useful JC items, you do need an enchanter to provide one of the components.

The same is true, however, for lots of items in smithing, tailoring, etc.

Personally, I believe that they programmed it wrong from the beginning (JC to make the ring....THEN the enchanter enchants it), but that's neither here nor there.

[Sylphan]

"There was a pretty good debate about this, and some internal discussion within SOE about it as well" says Nolrog.

Oh I believe it. No doubt there was. But I imagine the debate was decided by:

Some enchanters might lose access to titles because they no longer have 24 AA in class abilites
Enchanters might complain that this is another 'nerf' of their class
Enchanters might ask for an AA point refund
It will take much time to change all the AA records if we convert it to an Omens AA without a refund

and did not rest on gameplay notions like:

Jewelers will need to buy enchanted metals from jewelers anyway (augments don't need enchanting)
Jewelry should be an enchanter-only ability like Poisonmaking or Alchemy
Enchanters need more utility

In other words, practical concerns about the implementation rather than philosophical or in-context or class-definition ideas like the ones players discuss at EQTraders. I thought my short post had juxtaposed theory vs practice, but I guess it wasn't very clear.

I wanted to convince the latest person to post "JC is a full fledged trade skill open to all classes" that SOE probably already agrees. Saying that over and over is just preaching to the choir. The way they did the AAs was probably based on other considerations.

[Nolrog]

"Some enchanters might lose access to titles because they no longer have 24 AA in class abilites
It will take much time to change all the AA records if we convert it to an Omens AA without a refund

It doesn't need to be an Omens AA though. It can remain a PoP class AA, just that it's for every class. That eliminates the issue of chanters losing titles and changes to make it an Omens AA.

Rashere didn't elaborate on the discussions he had, and what ultimately lead to his decision.

[Maevenniia]

It doesn't need to be an Omens AA though. It can remain a PoP class AA, just that it's for every class. That eliminates the issue of chanters losing titles and changes to make it an Omens AA.

Rashere didn't elaborate on the discussions he had, and what ultimately lead to his decision.

I doubt that losing a title is really the problem...it's the fact that all the other classes got a certain # of relevant class AAs and because SOE ran out of ideas or something, chanters got JCM as one of their class AAs Chanters were not too happy at the time, iirc

...and of course all non-enchanter tradskillers were mightily ticked off too.

Yes, SOE needs to replace JCM with a class-specific PoP-era AA for Enchanters, not just because of the title but because they shouldn't have been 'robbed' of a class-relevant AA (something to do with their actual roles as mezzers, charmers, buffers)

Alternatively, if SOE can't think up a decent PoP-era AA to replace JCM with, maybe they should give all chanters JCM3 for free automatically when they reach 51 and have the PoP expansion. (And give a onetime refund of 18 AA points to all chanters who currently bought it, so they can spend the points elsewhere.)

That way, they still have an advantage over everyone else - all other classes will still have to spend 18 points if they want JCM3.

[Katashi]

JCM3 for all!

Sorry ... this is a huge mistake. Yes, I'll be /feedbacking in game as well.

I can not believe folks compare JC to Alchemy with a straight face. I can only assume that they simply do not appreciate the differences. Perhaps I can help. (1750 club + 200 in Alchemy)

Getting to 200 in Alchemy cost over 40,000 pp. There simply IS no simpler way. All items are storebought, or (LDoN) foraged. It takes FOREVER to do, as the trivials for the higher items are well beyond the ability to have successes (unlike the gentle steps between levels of JC). It's also level restricted, so as you're spending money, you have little or no hope of recouping it as you progress. JC to 250, on the other hand, cost a 2-3k (I'm cool with the fact that it's less for a chanter if they choose to imbue). It also took an evening of simple two item combines.

Now, having earned the right to make some of the higher end items in both skills ... the playing field is even, right? Not even close. Look at the 300-ish + trivial combines from PoP:

Cloudy Ring of Pneumatic Force

Steel Ring of Earthen Resilience

Bloodmetal Earring of Engagement

Valorium Ring of Gallantry

Glittering Ring of Judgement

Compare that to ANY Shaman potion of your chosing. Margin on the SoW potions that some say sell so well is what ... 6pp per potion? Gate potions (our generally accepted highest margin item? Look here for selling prices across servers. 500pp margin, tops ... for an item that does not sell in high volumes, and sometimes as a loss (not to mention the new "return home" AA that will reduce demand even further.

These JC items go for 10's of thousands of pp each. Margin? Up to 100% if they get the drops during hunting. For most of the last year, these were some of the highest margin items in the game. For one class to have sole ownership to the right to generate twice the profit margin (ie: half the failures) of all other classes on such high value items is simply wrong.

Please, I would dearly like to be proven wrong so I can drop this issue.

My full argument was in the EQ forums ... the operative part is reproduced below:

I've read the argument that similar AA's for Shaman alchemy and Rogue Poisonmaking fall into the same category. Simply and categorically untrue.

- neither are core tradeskills

- neither have anywhere near the plat-profit generating capability of jewelcraft.

- neither are on the critical path to skilling up another core tradeskill (can't tell you how frustrating it is to fail the 335-trivial Gem Studded Chain after chain ... knowing the advantage someone with JCM3 has) ... and for many of us, there simply is no other path to 250 tailoring.

- neither have the "in combination" power that an enchanter has with JCM3. None of the new Gates of Discord velium weapons combines can be done without an enchanter enchanting the velium (I have no argument with this ... or any other combine requiring multi-class access for high-end gear). To have the ability to do BOTH that AND fail far less on the 250'ish (plus) JC combines is clearly imbalancing. Add Velium Nihilite Pendant (enchanted velium) and it's dozen or so variations to the list. Scan the list of GoD and PoP jewelcraft combines in EQtrader to see the full extent. Bloodmetal Earring of Engagement; Cloudy Ring of Pneumatic Force; Electrfied Earring of the Tempest ... the top PoP combines ... all require enchanted metal ... and all generate huge profit ... imbalanced by the lack of shared access to the JCM3 capability.

I sincerely request that this be reconsidered. Failing that, I simply request that someone post that these factors were known, and taken into account in the decision not to release this to every class in OoW.

Thank you.

Katashi

[Katashi]

Artisan's Way posting

As an aside, Nolrog, the designated EQ forum tradeskill correspondent, posted this note ... suggesting those who believe strongly in this issue to /feedback and post there as well.

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