*grumbles* I am learning to hate the words ......

[Lling]

I think the big issue here as far as gate potions go is that they can be expensive. Not everyone can afford 200pp for a shaman made gate potion - and that is as cheap as I have seen them.

We are aware of their existence - but for many they are cost prohibitive.

I am fortunate - I can afford them. Other melee cannot. I would not loot a piece for that neck ahead of a melee who was not as financially fortunate as I am, but I would expect to be able to loot a pice ahead of a gating class.

To me it is simple courtesy.

[Lilosh]

This thread is dancing the line.

I think you should call it quits while everyone is still on their best behavior.

~ Lothay

Agreed. I will lurk in this thread, but post no more.

Well, I wont argue any more.

-Lilosh

[Niellya]

I think the big issue here as far as gate potions go is that they can be expensive. Not everyone can afford 200pp for a shaman made gate potion - and that is as cheap as I have seen them.

Do melee's get "trapped in dungeons without a way out" so often that this would drain their bank accounts? If so, maybe you need to re-evaluate whom you're raiding with.

I'm thinking that 200pp for the maybe one time a year that you get stranded is a good investment.

[Glatius2]

Do melee's get "trapped in dungeons without a way out" so often that this would drain their bank accounts? If so, maybe you need to re-evaluate whom you're raiding with.

Probably not. But it does happen more than you would think. If you're in a raiding guild which raids all the time and occassionally you have to leave before the night is over, it can be useful. Yes, often a Wizard is available to TL you, if they're not preoccupied and you can wait until they can get to you. I imagine not everyone can, when they have to get offline, they have to get offline. At 300pp a pop the potions probably aren't a bank breaker, but other options are also welcome.

[Harvyst]

This necklace is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade to anything a shaman can get ahold of outside of vex thal.

I think she had every right to it as a melee. After all, you're just going to use the 15 charges of gate. She's going to wear it forever. 50 hp 50 mana plus 10 wisdom and 10 sta? that's a shaman's dream gear.

No, sorry, I don't feel any sympathy for you. If I was in your group and your refused to let me roll on pieces for this necklace, I'd never group with you again.

NGB - this is a need for the shaman as well. I can't stress how hard it is to find necklaces with wis and hp - and how quickly we get aggro when we push canni v due to low health aggro.

[Raehn]

Doesn't the necklace only have 5 charges of the gate on the first and 15 charges on the second? Might as well buy a potion if it's not significant, cuz really... the only way you're getting the perma-clicky gate item thru this quest is if you are in a top tier guild that's flagged for all the planes because it requires drops from all of them (I think). If you're questing it only for the gate effect, your time is probably better spent. The stats on the other hand are pretty nice.

[Eumerin]

You don't need raids to appreciate this item.
I was in Sebilis the other night for a couple of hours. I was in a couple of groups that started to get together at the entrance, and then promptly collapsed before we actually did anything. Fortunately, there was a wizard sitting just inside the entrance TLing people out.
LD can strike quite often, and you never know when or where. We once had a guild raid in The Hole that collapsed when several people went LD simultaneously. Whether LD is 'rare' or not seems to rely on a number of factors, including the machine being used, the number of people present, and just random zone variables. I've had times where I couldn't zone without crashing due to amazingly high PL, and others where everything ran smoothly, often on the same day.

I don't want to have to put all of my plans on hold for a couple of hours just because I had to pop off my Thurgadin gate potion to get out of some ridiculous situation that I found myself in. And I've already got little enough storage space as it is without having to store extra velium bricks, ore, and crystalline silk.

By all means, let anyone and everyone who wants the amulet get a crack at it. Just let the non-gating classes have first shot.

[Glatius2]

By all means, let anyone and everyone who wants the amulet get a crack at it. Just let the non-gating classes have first shot.

It seems to me that if the item has as much attraction for both gaters and non-gaters as it appears to have, the only reasonable and logical thing would be to /random amongst everyone. In a group, rather than debating who would make better use or who has more need, when in doubt /random. At least that way no-one can be POd they didn't get a chance.

[Lilosh]

It seems to me that if the item has as much attraction for both gaters and non-gaters as it appears to have, the only reasonable and logical thing would be to /random amongst everyone. In a group, rather than debating who would make better use or who has more need, when in doubt /random. At least that way no-one can be POd they didn't get a chance.

You and I are 100% in agreence on this point.


-Lilosh

[Arou]

It seems to me that if the item has as much attraction for both gaters and non-gaters as it appears to have, the only reasonable and logical thing would be to /random amongst everyone. In a group, rather than debating who would make better use or who has more need, when in doubt /random. At least that way no-one can be POd they didn't get a chance.

Our small, friendly guild has recently begun to discuss these sorts of issues. This is the policy most people seem happy with for now;

If you helped to acquire something, you are entitled to a /random on it.

It is up to you and only you to decide if you wish to forfeit your roll. This frequently happens, but abstaining is a friendly gesture, not required. The main exception to this rule is "target" drops. If you form a group for the express purpose of getting person X item Y, then of course, they get it.
Also, if there are several things to be distributed, we divide the loot evenly, randomly determing who will get each piece, removing each person who already has one.

Note that there is no point system or attendance system here. Also, class restrictions and need are not formally a part of the system, although they often influence people's decisions about abstaining from a roll.

Why do we have this system? Because it always works. Everyone who helps gets a fair shake at the rewards. Just because the reward is an item one player might sell for money for tradeskills or another player might want as an upgrade to their equipment (main or alt) doesn't matter. All who help get paid; what you do with your pay is your business.

Of course, this policy works best in a friendly, small environment. It would be difficult to justify it on a 40+ player raid, but perhaps using it as a foundation might help people who do such things create a more effective arrangement.

[Niellya]

I am in complete agreement with Lilosh and Galtius2.

[Noni DeeCups]

Not trying to throw a log on the fire however there are many items out there that tanks claim as "their need out weighing that of the casters". Some examples?

Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
AC: +30 Str: +9 Wis: +9 Int: +9 Magic Resist: +9 Fire Resist: +9 Cold Resist: +9 Poison Resist: +9 Disease Resist: +9 HP: +75 Mana: +75
Weight: 0.0
Classes: All Classes
Races: All Races
Inventory Slot: Hands
Effect: Haste
1: Increase Attack Speed by 2% (L1) to 50% (L49)
Type: Permanent

Who *should* get this item? A monk because it has haste and is 0.0 weight? A Warrior/Tank maybe because of the AC, HP and haste? Better yet - Hybrids only because they will get the most benefit from all the stats?

How many casters have anything this good? Should they be excluded because this item has haste? Nevermind ALL the other stats? Give me a break...

The point I am trying to make is that your feeling that you need it more is selfish. Try and justify it any way you want.

A caster such as the Shaman who was expecting to roll had every right to get it at the same time as you. Your need is no greater than theirs. You do have other options even if they are expensive or inconvenient.

[Lilosh]

Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
AC: +30 Str: +9 Wis: +9 Int: +9 Magic Resist: +9 Fire Resist: +9 Cold Resist: +9 Poison Resist: +9 Disease Resist: +9 HP: +75 Mana: +75
Weight: 0.0
Classes: All Classes
Races: All Races
Inventory Slot: Hands
Effect: Haste
1: Increase Attack Speed by 2% (L1) to 50% (L49)
Type: Permanent

Who *should* get this item?

For pure comic relief in this otherwise tense thread, I will respond with a resounding


ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-Lilosh

[Glatius2]

Not trying to throw a log on the fire however there are many items out there that tanks claim as "their need out weighing that of the casters". Some examples?

Well, since we are going to go there, lets go there. Riddle me this, who has gotten the majority of drops out of PoP given that by far the most common drops are parchements? I'd hazard the guess that there have been far more melees getting nothing than casters in PoP. Can you honestly tell me I'm wrong?

Casters gain power through items and spells. Pure melee gain power through items only. How does one gain items and thereby increase their power if the majority of drops are singled out as caster only (because by far the majority of PoP groups I've been in have specified casters only on parchements) and nothing much seems to drop commonly for the pure melee?

So it we were to be completely fair, then every group should be open random for every drop, should it not? (waits for the screams of objection to the very thought)

[Noni DeeCups]

Parchments. Melee crying over parchments. /sigh If we must beat a poor dead horse I guess we must.

No screams in my reply. You also didn't answer my question unless your answer is:

"Barely anything drops for the tanks (insert cry me a river motion) and you *spoiled* casters get parchments. You owe us first crack at anything else that drops if we want it because we never get to roll on parchments."

Yes that was a dramatic reenactment but really - listen to yourself. Parchments have absolutely nothing to do with gear. You are upset that barely anything else drops? Complain to VI. Casters didn't make the loot table.

The difference is... they keep those melee buffed and alive. Your clerics? Guess what they get from those parchments? Yep, even their heal spells are drops. How many level 65 Shaman and Clerics do you want to play with that maybe if they are lucky have 2 spells in the 61 - 65 range because they are having to roll againts greedy melee? This is what you would prefer? Keep showing us how greedy you are.


Recap shall we?

Caster - Roll for parchments to improve the group over all with Nukes, buffs and heals. Greedy? My vote is no.

Caster - Roll for a piece of equipment that is an upgrade even though it cast gate as a clicky. Greedy? My vote is no.

Melee - Roll for a piece of equipment that *might* be an upgrade but desired because it cast gate as a clicky. Greedy? My vote is no.

Melee - Roll for parchments they can't scribe or use when someone else in the group is missing spells. Sole purpose is to sell for tank's sole personal gain. Greedy? Dang straight it is.

On a lighter note, many groups are greed rolling the parchments because all the casters in the group already have all of their spells. I need 1 more each of the level 61 / 62 spells. I play with people I know and trust. If they tell me they need a parchment then I believe them. Once I get those 2 spells, they will become greed rolls for me.

The real question is, what exactly was your problem with the Shaman?

1.) Was it that they had the nerve to need something just as much as you did and you are just bitter that you don't get parchments every time one drops? (I bet you LOVE those new Shaman buffs though don't you)

2.) Did you not trust or believe this Shaman when they said it was an improvement to what they had? Maybe you should rethink who you group with.

3.) You think melee should be defaulted anything they claim they need on and if no melee wants it the then the casters can get it because - once again - casters get parchments?

If nothing else, PoP has started to show us some people's true colors.