*grumbles* I am learning to hate the words ......

[Eumerin]

As a paladin, I REALLY hate not having gate. It singlehandedly is responsible for me not visiting the majority of Kunark dungeons. You can't get out of them once you're in without traveling through groups of mobs, and in many of them, there's no one else around unless you bring your own group. Ergo, paladin stranded at the entry point.
I remember when Kunark went live, and the speculation over the Kunark breastplates that Trakanon drops. There was a serious amount of jealousy among the other melee classes (and a little complaining by some) when the Ranger breastplate turned up with the teleport effect on it.
Why?
Because no one else had the ability. And we still don't to this day. The neck piece is the very first item I've seen that has multiple charges of a gate effect that I've seen, and I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it (I've actually been kicking myself because I didn't loot the note the one time I went to PoJ). Its literally worth its weight in plat.

[Niellya]

/looks around

/waits

Hmmm.... where's my clicky dual wield? Or my clicky ability to take more than a handful of hits before crumbling to the ground? Or my clicky FD?

There are reasons different classes have different abilities.

[Lilosh]

/looks around

/waits

Hmmm.... where's my clicky dual wield? Or my clicky ability to take more than a handful of hits before crumbling to the ground? Or my clicky FD?

There are reasons different classes have different abilities.

I pondered posting a reply similar to yours, but decided against it.

But I smiled when I read yours.


-Lilosh

[Glatius2]

Hmmm.... where's my clicky dual wield? Or my clicky ability to take more than a handful of hits before crumbling to the ground? Or my clicky FD?

Reasonable point, except. Except SOE has gone ahead and designed situations where it is completely impossible for someone without gate to extract themselves. In the middle of a NToV your ISP goes down and the raid moves on. When you are finally able to get back on hours later, through no fault of your own, if you're in a safe spot you at least have a chance to gate out. If not, well you have to have a Necro/SK come summon you or CR gets really tricky...

Without clicky dual wield you're not doomed to being trapped someplace with no zone out, for example PoG. I knew a guy who was trapped in PoG for two days until he found someone who could come and get him. I was trapped in Hate for 3 days once upon a time until someone showed up who could TL me.

Being trapped someplace is not fun. Its really not what the game should be about. And allowing us to get out of the situation and continue with playing the game shouldn't be perceived as some kind of insult to the casting classes, thankyouverymuch.

[Lilosh]

Being trapped someplace is not fun. Its really not what the game should be about. And allowing us to get out of the situation and continue with playing the game shouldn't be perceived as some kind of insult to the casting classes, thankyouverymuch.

1) There are vendored gate potions, albeit expensive ones.
2) Thurg Gate Potions aren't too hard to get.
3) Shamans brew 4 seperate Gate potions, If I recall correctly.


People have NO excuse to get trapped somewhere, unless they have impulsively gone to a plane , or somesuch, without thinking out the worst case scenario.


-Lilosh

[Glatius2]

People have NO excuse to get trapped somewhere, unless they have impulsively gone to a plane , or somesuch, without thinking out the worst case scenario.

Sure, we know all about these options. However, there seemed to be some angst involved with people wanting a clicky gate and how casters who have gate innately don't get many other things that people without gate get. Its not a balance issue. The only real advantage a clicky gate will have is that if its instant cast you can get gone with a mob beating on you, unlike the some of the others that have a casting time involved (melee who have no channeling have very little chance of getting off a successful gate while getting beat on). And if it has charges you don't have to run off and refresh it immediately.

Its a convenience. It makes life a little easier. Its not going to make pure melee suddenly able to quad kite or anything.

[xaanru]

Poor item design

Well, the problem appears to stem from SOE's tendency to poorly design items. This gate neckpiece should be like jboots. It should have suck AC, and no stats, just the clickable gate. Then it won't be appealing for two different resons.

And as far as gate meaning you're not trapped. This really isn't always true for clerics. Since I typically bind outside dungeons, before I go in to grind, and the dungeons often border zones that are equally unsafe, I find myself trapped at the zone in, Clerics suck at travelling, and even with Jboots, I often find myself on the verge of death, just getting back from the dungeon. A right click invis item, that is cleric usable, would sure help solve that problem.

But let me pose this to you. A new right clicky invis item drops. It's cleric usable. Everyone else in the group can cast invis, or has an invis clicky. Does the cleric get the item?

Ok, now, the item has High ac, sta, HP, and aura of battle on it.

Who gets it.

I would think that an item like this should never be developed, but SOE throws them in the game regularly (not invis clickies, but items that have confounding purposes). Why, I cannot fathom.

I edited what I was going to originally say, as it could have been construed as insulting to SOE designers. wink

[Lilosh]

Its a convenience. It makes life a little easier. Its not going to make pure melee suddenly able to quad kite or anything.

Well a FD item isnt going to let my chanter tank, but it would sure be convienent when he gets agro.

:twisted:



Playing Innoruuks Advocate,
-Lilosh

[Glatius2]

Well a FD item isnt going to let my chanter tank, but it would sure be convienent when he gets agro.

You have gate, do you not? You also have a number of tools to deal with agro as a chanter. It seems like FD would be overkill. Pure melee have no other ways to deal with being unexpectedly trapped deep in a dungeon or on a plane with no way out other than dying or continuing to be trapped. To you this might seem a reasonable trade off. To the pure melee it seems like a miserable way to spend a night.

[Lilosh]

Pure melee have no other ways to deal with being unexpectedly trapped deep in a dungeon or on a plane with no way out other than dying or continuing to be trapped.

I believe I addressed this in my last post on the first page. There are no less then 5 potions that will solve this problem. Any plane-travelling melee or hybrid should always carry one.

And this is without even mentioning your guilds wizards and/or druids who should be able to come rescue you. Even without these other people, you should have your "In case of emergency Break Glass" Potion. <grin>


-Lilosh

[Glatius2]

I believe I addressed this in my last post on the first page. There are no less then 5 potions that will solve this problem. Any plane-travelling melee or hybrid should always carry one.

Why are we going back over this? You mentioned the items. I acknowledged their existence and pointed out how a clicky effect item might be better. You counter with a point about an item that really wouldn't help you out of any situation that you don't already have many tools deal with. You come back to the items again. Yes they exist. Yes we carry them. So how would a clicky gate item unbalance the game in some significant fashion, please explain?

Otherwise it just seems like you have some personal beef with people having a clicky gate item, which I really can't help you with.

[Lilosh]

Why are we going back over this? You mentioned the items. I acknowledged their existence and pointed out how a clicky effect item might be better. You counter with a point about an item that really wouldn't help you out of any situation that you don't already have many tools deal with.

You specifically said that Melees have NO WAY of getting out of the planes, and that the gate-clicky was required. I was counter-arguing that they already have the ability to extract themselves. I brought up the potions to counter-point your argument that Melees are helpless when abandoned in the planes.

You said in your previous post:

Pure melee have no other ways to deal with being unexpectedly trapped deep in a dungeon or on a plane with no way out other than dying or continuing to be trapped.

And,

You come back to the items again. Yes they exist. Yes we carry them. So how would a clicky gate item unbalance the game in some significant fashion, please explain?

Otherwise it just seems like you have some personal beef with people having a clicky gate item, which I really can't help you with.

It wouldnt unbalance the game at all. I have no problems with people having a gate clicky, per say. I just have a problem with people saying they are ENTITLED to it , since there is no other option. The original poster had the right idea. Its a time and plat saving device, nothing more.


And please, lets keep this friendly. Implying that I have personal issues with the discussion was hitting slightly below the belt. My points are literate, and (I hope) well spoken and well thought out. Please respond in kind.


-Lilosh

[Daikoku Ashikaga]

You didn't say that you stated that your group was for the melees to get quest pieces, Does not mean that you set up any loot rules at all, that is not the shaman's issue, that is yours.

The shaman had a need, you may think yours was greater, but heck, you didn't state that this was for you, if you did from the start, and they ninja'd one item then punt them, but do not exppect everyone to agree to a NBG definition without discussion.

If it is better, then there is a need, don't be bigoted because of a clicky effect.

Yes, I don't have gate either, but I would not try and block someone unfairly from quest/camping their wn gear, it is hard enough to do in this game, outside of raids, so I say bravo for them for not just going out and buying Item_X

Dai

[Glatius2]

You specifically said that Melees have NO WAY of getting out of the planes, and that the gate-clicky was required.

No, actually I didn't. You're interpreting what I said that way. I said they needed gate to leave when deep in a dungeon or in some planes. Any gate will do. Clicky gate would be nice. No gate at all would be a problem.

And my original comment was in response to someone who seemed to think that non-gaters shouldn't have gate at all, clicky or otherwise. My point has continuely been that yes indeed there is a valid and reasonable need for pure melees or even hybrids to have gate items available. Implying that having the chance to gate out of a bad situation is somehow comparable to having dual wield or FD is not a very reasonable comparison.

Not having dual wield won't mean a caster is stuck in Hate with no way out, particularly if unguilded (guess what, some of us who play EQ are unguilded. And yes sometimes we go places with the potential of getting trapped. It happens). Nor does not having a FD item mean the caster is trapped in PoG or at the bottom of chardok or any number of other places.

So, it is your perception that I am insisting clicky gate is the only solution. I'm afraid your perception is mistaken. I'm talking about all gate options. Adding clicky gate is a logical progression in the risk vs. reward process, but it is not imperative.

[Eumerin]

Might I point out that when Kunark was released (and most of the REALLY problematic dungeons), those items weren't available?

Thurgadin didn't exist.
Vendor purchased gate potions aren't a realistic (or even remotely affordable) option for low or mid-level characters (and even at those levels, there are far too many spots where a character can get trapped).
And I honestly can't remember if alchemy was still broken at that point.

Gate is, to put it simply, merely a convenience. Every wis and int caster gets it as part of their second teir spells, and the only times its ever critical that one of my caster alts gets it off (i.e. whenever something is about to tear said character apart), the gate is unstable and collapses.
The lack of invisibility, feign death, or any other ability that realistically allows me to travel through a group of hostile mobs with my paladin is a class balance issue (invis undead doesn't count due to the fact that VI never misses an opportunity to mix live mobs in with the few areas that actually have large quantities of undead).
The lack of a gate on my paladin is a headache, and the reason there are some places I simply will not go.