Oh come on. How much is neccesary?

[Faymar]

Originally posted by Maevenniia
It's not so much that it isn't roleplay-correct (RC instead of PC, lol), but that it isnt immersive.

Giving Newbie_1,568,233 a skill of 200 in Sense Heading isn't going to teach him how to open bags or doors, buy from merchants, etc.
[/B]

Oooh, yes, immersive is a much better term.

That is my gripe; they haven't enhanced gameplay and at the moment they seem to be diluting it. I've stated already that there are a number of changes to the low-end game that were direly needed; it isn't a point of "I had a rough time and everyone else has too." However, taking content away from the game doesn't make sense to me. Having it go up 5-10 points every level would take away the tedium and yet keep the "world" sensible (although looking at it from a point of view of "we've handed everyone a compass as a starting gift" is an interesting take).

I don't think the point is "this is the worth thing they've ever done" (I'm a bard, remember? I can give you a personal list *grin*) but that it is starting to feel like someone has lost site of the low-end game (in terms of story/immersiveness/achievement) and changed the emphasis to the "high end" game only whereas to me the low end should be full of it's own types of reward/accomplishment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's happening across the board. The newbie quests were a great addition and although they are very hard for the level of reward, I have seen new players get totally focused on getting all their armor (before they realise there is better out there for less effort) and have a great time doing it. If the armor were improved or the drop rate increased, I would see that as a good thing: it is increasing motivation in terms of actual content and maintaining the game achievements at the low end (which isn't just levelling, it's getting skills up and doing quests and having reasons to end up in new places). I am simply disturbed by what appears to be a trend of diluting this.

-Fay

[Lilosh]

I guess it's the whole "Give a man a fish" vs "Teach a man to fish" thing.

This isn't teaching people to be better players. The same "Tedium" will still be there.
Instead of Sense Heading, now they will say that 1HS goes up too slowly. Or taunt. Or Forage. Or bash. Or Evocation.

Improving your skills is a part of the game.
Learning hotkeys, macros, and key binding is a part of the game.


Anyone who starts a game, plays for 15-20 minutes, decides it's too hard, and quits is a person the game is better off without anyway. "But mommy, it's too haaaaaaaard!!!".

We *ALL* had to find our sea legs in Everquest. Pre-LoY, we learned our way around. We got lost once or twice. Some of us noticed that clouds always drifted west, or that dropped swords pointed north. We learned where paths went, or what zone bordered what.

Like so many things in life, in an effort to make the game more appealing to everyone, they are Idiot-proofing it.

Newbie Quests? Good! Make them work for new armor.
Gukta newbie quest? Very well done. Immersive, but nice tutorial.
Giving 5 gold at the start? Giving food, drink, and bandages? No problems here.
Changing it so they get a bag when they start: I can see the logic, even If I had fun saving for my first backpack. I just wish they had phrased it better then "Helping them learn the mechanics of a container sooner, rather then later".

But magically maxing out a skill for them that I took pride in maxing? It's something for nothing that I can not approve of. No other skill in the game starts out maxed, and with good reason.


-Lilosh

[andyhre]

Language skills start out maxed. I knew Common and Elvish at the start.

[Iumiena]

This is what I remember from when I was a newbie:

1) At level 2 I drowned in Qeynos pool cause I didn't know how to swim

2) At level 4 I tried to test out this spell called color flux during a med break that had the nifty blue gem instead of red and yellow, and was promptly slain by the guard

3) At level 7 I did at least 2 hours of fishing to get me my new level 8 spells

4) At level 8 I decided to go all over norrath to do stein of mogguk quest being very scared and careful and spending a lot of time trying to find the right NPCs. This is also where I learned that not all the NPCs in the world like you, and that not all faction is tied to race.

5) At level 30 I saved up every penny I earned and bought my first non-newbie robe (Black crystalline robe) for 2k.

This shows a lot of frustration, but honestly I got the best memories of the game from those times. I laugh with all my friends over newbie mistakes we did or silly things we suffered through (like the boats, before realizing druids could port). I have had at least 10 new chars since then, and none of them comes even close to the excitment I felt as a true newb.

I don't mind Sony dumbing down the game, making things simpler for newbs and making it virtually impossible for them to die or get lost and confused. I just feel sorry for the new people, because exploration is half the fun in the game.

[Shinianad]

One of my first characters was a Ranger. As soon as I left Surefall Glade I trotted him over to Qeynos to have a look. Just inside the gate I hailed the first npc I saw walking by. He promptly called the guards over and killed me.

Never went back to Qeynos again for a long time anyway..

That taught me to con everything I meet before talking to it. (No I didn t type auto-attack.. )

I think an option to turn off Sense Heading would do, rather than just give it to all new chars.

I like the Gukta beginning quests too, wish they would do that for all zones.

I'm not sure of the advantage of starting with a bag.. I mean with 3 stacks of items to start as it is it'll fill up fast and they will still have to find another..

I too started without maps or the find command.. got lost a few times but it helps you know the zone, wandering around a bit.

Now I just bring up the map and use it to navigate where I want to go.. dont even see any scenery sometimes. Of course that is my own fault, but it helps when in a laggy zone like the bazaar.

One thing I wish they'd do is make the newbie armor quests a tiny bit easier.. make the drops more common. I know they already did this but I can still level an alt up past the need to do the newbie quests much faster tha I can find all the items. My bard is wearing ornate chain BP someone gave me at 20, but still cant fid the last piece I need for the dam newbie BP! lol

[Stugein]

Originally posted by Dunthor Warsmith
Naturally this doesn't apply to LDoN directly (since no respawn) or PoP (graveyard), but its a pain having to frequently fight the group not to spend ~150pp * 6 + necroHiringCost + timeToFindNecroWillingToDoTrivialCorpseSummoning for something we could easily do ourselves (and usually faster, too).

Not contributing to this specific subject at all, but this post reminded me of something I found amusing.

Had a group that was going south pretty quickly. Not going to bore with details, but in the end we evac'd. A couple folks missed the boat and died. The corpse runs were, in my and everyone else's opinions, too difficult to do with any sort of time effectiveness. I am waiting at the front of the zone for the unlucky group members to come back with coffins in hand. I've already memmed the corpse summon. Just waiting. Group members take a looong time to get back.

{Stugein} Whats taking so long? Can't find the coffin vendor?
{Groupie} Got the coffins. Looking for necro.
{Stugein} Uhmm, I'm a shadowknight.
{Groupie} We need to find a necro to summon our corpses.
{Stugein} I can do that. Shadowknights can summon corpses too.
*no response from groupie*
*check /who. Groupies still in PoK.
{Stugein} Seriously. Just get back here. I can summon your corpses out. No need to wait for a necro.
*no response*

About 10 minutes of no responses later, one of the dead groupies shows up...with a necro. I was stunned. And they paid him to do the summons on top of what the coffins cost them when I was going to do it for free.

Maybe they didn't believe me and thought I was trying to steal their precious coffins? Maybe they were under some wacky misperception that sk/necro summon worked like pally/cleric rez and the necro summon would some how...I don't know...bring the corpse a couple feet closer or something?

After the corpses were summoned the necro left and the group started to disband. I left the group, shaking my head IRL. Not long after that I received a tell from the necro.

{Necro} Dude. Why didn't you just summon their corpses for them?

I didn't respond.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

[Kahmon]

Originally posted by Lilosh
they are Idiot-proofing it.

Talk about a waste of time. One of my favorite quotes is this:

"If you make something more idiot proof then the world finds a better idiot"

I just wish I could give proper credit on that one.

[Jaroo]

Content killers

Look, they killed sense heading by giving everyone that compass on your screen. Hey, I had a compass in my bag. Yes, I had to pull it out of my bag to check then put it back.
Ok, they add mapping features, ok.... no more hand drawn maps, no more printing off eqatlas maps.

Little bit by bit they are killing the character of the game. All the home cities are empty with the exception of the new character without a map that can't find the exit to get to the PoK book.
That's about it. Lists of npcs with quests and text that nobody checks until they find a link on Allahkazam for part of their quest.

I agreed with Maeve back there that they keep trying to fix the same things but ignore big gaping holes. What about the cities?
Why do the boats still break down after all these years?
The character of the game was the Quest in the Everquest. It was the standard items we all counted on like torches and lanterns. We could just as well expect them to remove nightblindness because folks complained too much in Surefall or Halas.
They'll probably go the next step and give you your starting spells all scribed and memmed. Lvl 1? Why not skip to lvl 5 or 10?
All these things and still they leave zones full of mobs too low for exp and quests they never intend to change.
Yes, I'm jaded to the grand items you get for doing one dungeon vs. the quest that made me run from Kaladim to Qeynos just for a magic weapon. Handed to you versus showing some creativity.

I think the only thing left in the game that truly shows the deep thinking is tradeskills. Folks have to experiment and learn to make these things. The database here alone shows the hours of dedication. That Oracle quest? Sweet. I think the folks making up the big quests should be given the keys to the old stuff for some much needed updates.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Stugein
After the corpses were summoned the necro left and the group started to disband. I left the group, shaking my head IRL. Not long after that I received a tell from the necro.

{Necro} Dude. Why didn't you just summon their corpses for them?

joe_noob says ooc looking for a necro to summon corpses
you tell joe_noob I guess I can't summon them since you need a necro

I made a fair chunk of cash summoning corpses for a while before PoP. And porting, and rezzing. Gotta love a second box with a trader up in the bazaar. Druids quad kiting in CS made me a boatload of money : D

[JMorgana]

Since the compass is tied to the Sense Heading code, that is essentially what giving everyone a 200 skill does.

However, giving only brand-new toons 200 skill does NOT do this. Personally I have no problem with doing this; however, if they are going to do this, they need to increase EVERYONE'S sense heading to 200, not just have new toons start out with 200 skill.

Just one peace-loving wizard's opinion.

[borblefoot furtoe]

I wish people would stop belittling the importance of the sense heading skill. It IS a vital skill in EQ. I use my sense heading skill every time I log on whether its following directions in a raid or in a group or in a dungeon or running accross a zone.

My sense heading skill is one of the most used skills in the game. Much like Breathing in the real world it is largely taken for granted and not noticed or thought about by quite a few people in the game, some of whom have posted here on how useless and outdated it has become with the maps and compass.

This is hardly the case. As I pointed out elsewhere if I had a nickle for every time I was asked to go north or west or any of the other directions in game I would be a rich man and could retire.


The only change I would support is removal of the level cap and an increase in the rate it is learned. That actually makes sense no matter what way you look at it.


Giving newbies sense heading 200 is giving away a vital, yet underappreciated, skill. And as has been mentioned before this is their umpteenth attempt to solve this glaring problem in EQ. And their reasoning for giviing it away is patently absurd. You can say the same exact thing about every single other skill/ability in the game. That is the reason why you see so many people objecting to it, not some sense of I did it the hard way you should too mentality.

While that sentiment does exist I am sure most of the sound arguments against the change have nothing to do with it.


Borblefoot Furtoe
Storm Warden
Firiona Vie Server

[dahna]

About the new consider option, I think perhaps coloring the name in the target window would be the cheapest and fastest way. I don't know if the patch has been done on test yet.
Anyone can say how it work now?

How does the new targeting system work now? I dont play EQOA so I would like to know if it is a halo like or a flashy like system. Imho the flash system would be nicer (the mob color slightly change instead of a ring surrounding him) but will perhaps decrease again the "rpg feeling" (not that a flashy name upon the mob is giving rpg feeling either )

edit: just remembered that the DaoC consider system would be nice. As each mmorpg is "inspiring" each other I wouldnt mind that

[Aeght]

The complaints here seem funny to me, and sort of sad....

In reality, in many situations, you can tell what approximate direction you are facing based on knowledge of your environment...

To the extent you cannot, compasses are inexpensive and work well. They give a direction in degrees, not merely 'north' or northwest.' While it is true that many, or most of the population are not trained to navigate by compass, most are definately not trained to use a sword or bow in combat, and fantasy litarature aside, it is unlikely anyone is trained to use spells at all.

You can get a sense of affilliation/con of many strangers by the uniform they wear, their body language, etc.

True you cannot tell very much by just looking at them. In reality you would have to ask around to learn such information and doing so would be a skill in and of itself, but the point is that the information is available. EQ already assumes sort of a '6th sense' about how tough/hostile those around us are.

Since we still have to select who we are looking at, is it really unreasonable for that sense to kick in automaticly?

Think about those thougts before crying foul in a roleplaying sense...

As for 'fairness to the older players' well.... these are relatively minor changes....

Should rogues never have gotten evade, or rangers Jolt, simply because such provisions were not there from the start? Should there be (dare I suggest this, given this site) no trade skills, because they are not 'fair' to those not so inclined?

Fairness is definately relative... any change generally steps on *someone*

Anyway, just my take on all this...

Aeght

[thrashette]

Well, here's my opinion.

A "target Indicator", similar to EQOA?

The blinking name works just fine, thank you. My fear is that they will do something just as dumb as the more-lag-inducing bazaar 'find vendor' animation.

Font changes? This is just extraneous, but I can see where some people insist on adding silly frills.

I need this. Sony apparently does not understand the meaning of 'small' and 'large'. Fontsize '3' is microscopic, and fontsize '4' is GIGANTIC. Fontsize 5 is for all practical purposes the same as 4, being only about 2 pixels taller. This is as baffling to me as the fact that 'particle effects' settings of 'low,medium,high' actually mean 'High, Blinding, Whiteout'.

REMOVING THE NEED TO CON?

Better idea: Let me change the CON colors to something that I can actually read against a translucent black marble background?

Tell Windows?

I can't wait for the 300 clarity beggar windows. As if my UI wasn't laggy enough already...

Giving newbies a bag

Might as well. Gives them something to sell.

Sense heading to 200

As someone who wandered around Greater Faydark before it even had mobs, I can understand why getting lost is bad for newbies. But you know, nothing will be as painful as the day in beta when they switched Normal-X,Y to EQRetarded-Y,X.

I know which part of the navigation system -I- would fix if I had the chance, and sense heading isn't it.

[Kahmon]

Re: Well, here's my opinion.

Originally posted by thrashette

Giving newbies a bag

Might as well. Gives them something to sell.

The bag will most likely be no drop like nearly everything else new charactors start with.