Oh come on. How much is neccesary?

[Tobin Itharel]

The new /con in the Targer window is a BAD thing the way that did it. Why? Well. lots of custom UIs use the player window as the target window and don't even use the targert windo at all - my UI uses the target window for timers. So, SoE just broke many custom UIs whith how they put in this new feature.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

*Any* UI change, good bad or other, will break many UIs. Most remain functional (with a little red error text every time you log in, big deal) just without the new feature. I've come to not really find this a valid reason for a change being "bad". Charms, LoY dyes, spell sets, pet buffs, LoY bank slots, shared bank slots, 80 visible vendor slots, and more all broke UIs, yet most consider them positive changes (to varying degrees).

-----

Doing corpse runs is not character building.

This one I have a bit of ... issue with. As time has passed and the makeup of random pickup groups has changed, the number of people labelling a wipe as "unrecoverable, get the coffins and the necro" has increased dramatically. Even for (what I consider) simple CRs, there's usually at least one person in the group saying that we need coffins.

Naturally this doesn't apply to LDoN directly (since no respawn) or PoP (graveyard), but its a pain having to frequently fight the group not to spend ~150pp * 6 + necroHiringCost + timeToFindNecroWillingToDoTrivialCorpseSummoning for something we could easily do ourselves (and usually faster, too).

The ability to get your corpse back is an important skill in my opinion, and the number of people that lack it in modern EQ is frightening.

[Furyrpied]

I'm going to take the opposite tack and say that LDoN has done MORE to reverse (or make evident*) the dumbing down of the game than any expansion to date.

Aye.. you have hit the nail on the head there!

I agree with the RPers on this msg board... I was proud when I could finally med without looking at my book, had to make friends with a wizzy or a druid (back when i started off with a war) to get me to deeper, darker places, or take the boat..


I honestly miss those days!

[Faymar]

Originally posted by Phabos
But you've missed the point.

You've completely ignored the roleplay and sense of achievement comments made by various people. I gave examples, I can't see that your post actually nullifies any of them.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Faymar
You've completely ignored the roleplay and sense of achievement comments made by various people. I gave examples, I can't see that your post actually nullifies any of them.

Count the number of RP preferred servers, count the number of blue servers. RP reasons aren't invalid, you're just playing the wrong game if you want to RP. SoE knows this and tailors the game accordingly. Zeks have the same complaint and unfortunately, hear the same rebuttal (ask the people on Rallos about AE groups sometime).

[Phabos]

I will agree that roleplaying is, for some people, an intergral part of the game.

However, I am failing to see how Sense Heading is that tied to roleplaying. There is a sense of accomplishment in maxing Sense Heading. Mine is 200 and was as soon as I reached the level needed to max it.

However, there are downsides. As I and others have pointed out, there are several problems with the new game experience. Too often, players who have been around a while, myself included, take for granted the interface and the gameplay. Someone who buys the game tonight, with no help, is going to have a difficult time figuring out what is going on. Yes, it's funny in hindsight. And yes, it's annoying to those of us who have been around needing to take newbies by the hand and walk them through the earlies stages of the game. However, it doesn't need to be that way.

SOE has decided to strike a balance between roleplay and ease of use, and this balance is correct and long overdue. Roleplay may be diminished by raising Sense Heading to 200. However, ease of use will increase. Giving all new players a few tools to ease progression at the expense of a feature that a few found to be an aspect of roleplay is good business for SOE. The first few weeks of playing experience are the time in which new players decide whether or not to renew their subscriptions, buy expansions, etc. When the potential benefits are balanced against the potential detriments, I see the gains far outweighing the losses.

SOE has, lately, added a great deal of content to the mid and high level game. There is no reason to be upset over a few minor changes to the lowest-end game.



Phabos Aphsion
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr

Edited for grammar, unfortunately on a section that was quoted.

[Maevenniia]

Originally posted by Phabos
I will agree that roleplaying is, for some people, an intergral part of the game.

However, I am failing to see how Sense Heading is that tied to roleplaying. There is a sense of accomplishment in maxing Sense Heading. Mine is 200 and was as soon as I reached the level needed to max it.

However, there are downsides. As I and others have pointed out, there are several problems with the new game experience. Too often, players who have been around a while, myself included, take for granted the interface and the gameplay. Someone who buys the game tonight, with no help, is going to have a difficult time figuring out what is going. Yes, it's funny in hindsight. And yes, it's annoying to those of us who have been around needing to take newbies by the hand and walk them through the earlies stages of the game. However, it doesn't need to be that way.

SOE has decided to strike a balance between roleplay and ease of use, and this balance is correct and long overdue. Roleplay may be diminished by raising Sense Heading to 200. However, ease of use will increase. Giving all new players a few tools to ease progression at the expense of a feature that a few found to be an aspect of roleplay is good business for SOE. The first few weeks of playing experience are the time in which new players decide whether or not to renew their subscriptions, buy expansions, etc. When the potential benefits are balanced against the potential detriments, I see the gains far outweighing the losses.

SOE has, lately, added a great deal of content to the mid and high level game. There is no reason to be upset over a few minor changes to the lowest-end game.



Phabos Aphsion
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr

empasis mine

It's not so much that it isn't roleplay-correct (RC instead of PC, lol), but that it isnt immersive.

Giving Newbie_1,568,233 a skill of 200 in Sense Heading isn't going to teach him how to open bags or doors, buy from merchants, etc.

Now, as I said before, look at Gukta. Tadpole_01 is created and as soon as he logs in he has some instructions to follow, hints that lead him to his Guildleader, and is immediately launched into some newbie mini-quests that teach him the ropes (coupled with the pop-up in-game help window). It's essentially an in-game tutorial that teaches new froggies the mechanics in a very immersive fashion. By the end of it, the new froggie has a few peices of equipement and an extra spell or two, some XP, even a few gold in cash, and most importantly, knowledge of game basics.

Now, isn't THAT better than just slapping 200 SH onto every newb and calling it a day?

I understand the other side of the argument, it doesn't harm anyone to give them 200 SH to start, but it doesn't help them much either. And it makes the game yet that much less immersive than it already is. The wonder of EQ for me when I first started, was that I was able to really get into the game and feel like I was inside a fantasy world like the books I so love to read.

Yes, getting lost and losing my corpse was frustrating, and I'm all for lowering the frustration levels - just not at the cost of losing that 'wonder and awe'

Call me petty or selfish if you will, I just don't think 200 SH is the solution.

Start em off at 25, with an automatic +5 every level, that way the compass will start off being useful (and newbs should at least have a minimum starting knowledge of left/right north/south) and implement Gukta-type mini-tutorials in every newb city (incorporating the already existing newb armor quests, which were a great addition.)

[Phabos]

Now, isn't THAT better than just slapping 200 SH onto every newb and calling it a day?

Probably.

But that's not the issue of this thread. The general premise of this thread, so far as I can tell, is that raising Sense Heading to 200 (along with the other changes) is one of The Worst Ideas Ever. This was SOE's choice. Nowhere have I said the idea was the best way of handling the situation, I just said it didn't hurt. This is a step in a process that, from the looks of things, some people don't agree with. SOE can do more to help newbies. They could also do a lot less. For now, it's something in the middle with an ability that many of us can benefit from. I know people who don't use sense heading as it is, and they have been playing for years.

In game "tutorials" would be helpful, and I fully support them. Implementing them would aid new players. I have no argument with any of those. I just don't agree with the proposition that when SOE decides to do one thing, it gets hammered because it could do more, instead of seeing it as a step in the right direction. Why is it so difficult to give SOE a little bit of credit? We give them money for expansions and subscriptions, yet don't give them any credit for what they have done or what they will do. This attitude I see of "If I were in charge of EQ, I'd do this..." You sure? Everyone has favorite bugs to criticize, but has anyone ever looked at the big picture? Does anyone (outside of the SOE staff that read these boards) know EXACTLY what goes on inside EQ development? If not, let's not be so quick to criticize.


Phabos Aphsion

[Quesci]

Originally posted by Maevenniia
Start em off at 25, with an automatic +5 every level

Best compromise yet.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

I just don't agree with the proposition that when SOE decides to do one thing, it gets hammered because it could do more, instead of seeing it as a step in the right direction.

That's actually one of the things I haven't seen to much of in this thread (at least compared to elsewhere). Most of the comments here against this (and the previous newbie changes) haven't been "SOE should've been fixing MY pet issue instead of working on newbie/lowbie issues", they've been "I'm not fond of this {specific change, pattern of change} as a means to improve the newbie/lowbie experience".

[Lothay]

I'll chime in my 2cp worth.

Lowering the difficulty of learning to play is important. EQ is over 4 years old, and lives in a highly competitive marketplace. Any change which increases the likelyhood of a new player renewing his subscription is a good thing.

When you first make a character, it's hard to navigate. Period. My first new character (in Apirl of 1999, thank you for asking) got lost so frequently that is now part of our guild lore. Funny now, but nearly caused me to quit playing then. Having to use /ooc or /shout to get directions wasn't very immersive, it was frustrating.

The compass was a wonderful addtion to the game. It's tied to the Sense Heading skill. When you have a Sense Heading skill of 0 or 5, it spins around like a top and is essentially useless. In fact, the compass doesn't really become useful until your Sense Heading skill is at or near 200.

So, imagine if you will, that you've just bought this new game. You get everything installed, you login (after deciding it really is OK to give Sony your credit card number), and you head out into the great wide open. It doesn't take long, you get lost. And sitting there, on your screen is this compass, and it doesn't do anything useful.

You don't have any hot keys, you don't know about them, or haven't read the manual. You don't have any Sense Heading skill, you're a fresh-out-of-the-vat warrior-clone. You have a map, but all you have on it is a litte + symbol to show where you are.

Doesn't take long for you to decide that a) something is broken, and b) you're not having any fun.

Automatically giving every new character a Sense Heading skill of 200 makes the compass work. It makes the map work better because you have the arrow now. It saves you having to learn about the Sense Heading skill and having to mash a single button a zillion times in hopes of a skill up. In short, it improves the play-experience of the new player.

Granted, some of the memories from getting lost make for good funny stories with old EQ-friends. And despite the frustrations, I stuck with EQ. But how many people don't? When I started playing EQ, there were only 2 MMORPGs out, EQ and UO. Now there are many. Sony wants your dollars, and they're going to make getting excited about EQ as simple as possible.

What's lost by making Sense Heading 200 at the outset? Nothing worth saving if you ask me.

I too would like to see more quests akin to the ones for frogloks. Many of the newbie quests in Shar Vhal impressed me when Luclin came out as they intrduced you to the city and made you learn where things/people were. The Guktan ones are even better. But I'll take my improvements where I can get them, and I think making the Sense Heading skill 200 is a great idea.

[Kahmon]

It just occured to me that perhaps another solution would be to eliminate Sense Heading all together and just make the compas work 100% of the time.

[Lothay]

Originally posted by Kahmon
It just occured to me that perhaps another solution would be to eliminate Sense Heading all together and just make the compas work 100% of the time.

Since the compass is tied to the Sense Heading code, that is essentially what giving everyone a 200 skill does.

[Vyncent]

Tell Window

Well actually you can set up a tell window right now...right click on the main chat window and click create new window. Then set the window filter to tell, or if you want also group and guild, raid whatever you please thats what i have so my convorsations dont get lost in endless /ooc's or battle messages

Vyncent Wolfkin
44 Druid Torvo
188 Brewing
135 Baking
36 Tailoring WOOHOO

[Quesci]

Yes, but it would be a single window for all tells. I do this on my trader so that tells don't get lost in Bazaar spam and I can look through the list when I get up in the morning.

What Sony is gonna do is automatically generate a new window for each conversation. So if you are chatting with three people you will have three tell windows open and will be less likely to mistell