Starting funds needed to do a skill up from 158

[Treeberry]

Hello All,

Having been a lurker on the boards for almost a year now I decided that it was time to make an account and start interacting with the community!

After a year of on and off tailoring I have finally reached 158 and am fully committed to GM'ing the skill. I am a level 54 Half Elf Druid of Tunare on Tholuxe Paells server.

I wanted to take a moment to discuss plans for creating a self-sustaining production and sales loop designed to minimize farming time, while still providing reasonable opportunity to attempt skill ups. Additionally, I want to share some observations with the community and get some feed back from you all as to their validity.

Now that I have started work on Acrylia studded gear, I have finally begun producing equipment that has garnered the interest of other players and as such I get occasional requests for information related to stock pricing and availability. (Prior to acrylia - I really couldn't give my tailored gear away.) Of course the only things that people seem to be interested in are cloaks and tunics. (Despite my best efforts to educate them all.)

After doing a little bit of math I am heartened by the prospect that I might actually be able to turn enough profit from the sales to start farming in my local bazaar instead of DSP/Mons Letalis/Scarlet Desert for hides and ore (at least in part).

Here's the plan...

Resources:
1. My trade mule... Yes, I bought a second account and I am about to put a mule in the bazaar 24/7. I am hoping that this will substantially boost sales in two ways: First is consistency, some evenings I'm just too tired/lazy to run back up to the bazaar and sort through all my wares and go through the effort of setting up trader mode. My inventory has never been particularly organized so its usually a 20 minute task to get the job done. Secondly I am hoping to get a boost in sales just by having a trader up during peak server hours.

2. My mule chanter... I have leveled an enchanter up to 24 and am happy to take her higher if needed... I could have used her earlier (Wu's) - but I'm sure she'll still come in handy later for Imbuing and making vials of mana. She also just happens to be a GM Jeweler. (I now have a source for Gem Studded Chains who will sell to me at cost. )

Given all of that here's the plan:
I definitely stick with Acrylia Studded till 188...

Cost of production:
Assuming that I am not lured by the prospect of making masks and stick with the equipment I am reasonably sure will provide a decent return (Cloaks and Tunics) here is the cost break down on prices for raw materials that I have seen on my server:
Superb Hopper Hides: 100-200pp per hide
Small Acrylia Bricks: 40pp per piece

6 Bricks = 2 studs with no failures so lets say 7 bricks = 2 studs over the long run. (Studs of course are trivial)

It should be reasonable to assume that a cloak would cost
(40pp * 7(bricks) * 2(4 studs total)) + (100 to 200pp per hide) = (660-760pp per attempt depending on hide costs)

If you do the math... the studs work out to be about 140pp a piece making the cost per attempt for a tunic: 800-900pp

A run of 10 cloaks and 10 tunics should cost me between 14,600 and 16,600pp

Sales data:
Now looking at some casually observed sales data for my server:
Cloaks go for between 500pp and 800pp
While tunics sell for between 800pp and 1000pp

Given the fact that I am only 158 in skill I should probably expect a lot of failures: so far I am 2 for 5. (40% success rate) Yup I have my geerlok and an entire host of rituals I go through before sitting down to start a combine session.

Assuming that I charge the upper limits of what the market seems to be tolerating and I had 40% successes on cloaks and tunics... I should reasonably expect the following return on my investment... 40%*18,000pp = 7,200pp return on my initial investment. (Net loss between 7,400 and 9,400 per run)

Given the other posts that I have read... 10,000pp per point seems like the average people pay per skill up at the high end anyway - so I think there is a little historical data to back me up.

Well, I am not made of money and will have already put the initial time in up front to farm my first stacks of ingredients myself. And unless my success rates radically increase I will still have to spend time farming for myself... but the good news is, I think there are ways that I can increase my attempt success rate as well as minimize the farming needed by selectively pick which pieces I farm. (I will always farm acrylia and buy hides if I can… the ore just comes more quickly.)

Increasing your Success Rate:
I, like many other people, have my share of superstitions related to my combine attempts. (I do all my tailoring work in RV sitting in front of that loom even if I am using my planar sewing kit for combines - don't ask ) But there are a few superstitions that could potentially be valid and I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried to either prove or disprove the theories...

1. High DEX/AGI increases your success rate: I failed my first attempt at the 6th shawl after what was months of gathering components solo. After that devastating blow I decided to find a high level shammy and ask them what they could do to improve my stats. They cast Avatar on me and low and behold my DEX/AGI when from the low 120's all the way to 250 each. I quickly put my pieces in my kit... hit the combine button and voila I had my 6th shawl. (I hugged the shammy even if she was an ogre!) I know that this one instance proves nothing... but I'm wondering if any of you out there have had similar experiences? Anyone else seek out an Avatar before doing a high-stakes combine as I will from here on out?

2. Intellectual Superiority increases your success rate: I haven't tried this yet, but now that I have a chanter mule - I will add the IS buff to my to-do list before each session (along with getting a KEI, and an Avatar). The only reason I mention this is because of the number of posts by tradeskill people Casters Realm... and if it's free it can't hurt right?

In Summery:
It’s pretty much guaranteed that I will start getting a much larger percentage of my investment back then I have ever received before, and depending on Hide availability in the bazaar I might never have to farm hoppers again! (The hides are such a small portion of the actual cost compared to the Acrylia – any return I do get will be first spent on hides – then on ore and I will only have to farm as much ore as is needed to make up the deficit, thus greatly reducing the time spent gathering materials.) As my skill does go up – less and less time will be spent farming.

My Questions:
Have any of you had an epiphany like this at some point in your tailoring careers? Did it pan out – or was it just a pipe dream in the end?

What have each of your experiences been with efforts to improve your success rates? We all talk a lot about getting skill-ups – that’s a given, but it seems a lot of people are happy to farm and eat the cost of production for the sake of reaching 250… has anyone out there spent time trying to maximize their success rate at this stage in life? If so, what worked for you and what didn’t?

What have your experiences been with sales in the bazaar… is it reasonable to expect to turn over 20 pieces of gear over the course of a week?

And now the biggy…

Aside from getting my trophy and bragging rights, does it even make sense to bring a Half Elf Druid of Tunare up to 250? From what I understand I have zero cultural options at my disposal, and is there really any market for high end Velious/Luclin/PoP tailored gear? I originally started tailoring when I saw a friend wearing an Acrylia Studded cloak and I vowed that one day I would make my own… well here I am one year later and I have made my own cloak and also have completed the 6th shawl… aside from creating the Ceremonial Solstice Robes, I can’t really think of any other uses for the skill that would benefit me individually outside of personal satisfaction.

I know that this was an exceedingly long winded post – but I have been thinking about this stuff for a year now… thanks for taking the time to read it!

[Craftah]

First: Welcome.

Second: Your Plan.

I've been doing a bit of the same thing on my server: Farming Acrylia, buying hides (after initially collecting a few stacks of hides) and selling the results. You should actually expect much higher success rates. Acrylia seems to succeed at a MUCH higher rate than other combines. However, the only flaw in your plan is that if you produce this stuff in mass, eventually the market slows down a bit. I've started to notice this quite a bit. I'm at 195 tailoring now, and I'm thinking of doing a run on Acrylia in the bazaar to use up the 38 Flawless hides I have in the bank, but I worry about the consequences of 20 Reinforced Acrylia Tunics on the prices in the bazaar. Best bet is probably going to be to hold some of them back and only put up 3 or 4 at a time.

When suddenly 20 tunics (or cloaks or whatever) appear on a trader there is a mentality that goes something along this line: "Oh, that trader has 20 tunics for 900pp. I've only got one for 900pp, so I should lower my price to 800pp so I sell before he does." One of the other traders sees this and lowers his price to match. This keeps up until everyone is selling tunics at 500pp. I've never figured it out.

1. High DEX/AGI increases your success rate:

I don't believe this one has been confirmed, and it has been specifically denied by SOE at the Fanfairs. Your "lucky combine" and millions of others like it will convince folks that it is true. My "lucky combine" on my 6th shawl (and my 7th) came without high DEX or AGI.

2. Intellectual Superiority increases your success rate:

As an Enchanter I have never noticed a difference in either skillup rate or success rate with IS up. As 189 is my lowest skill (smithing) and I have multiple skills at 250 (JC and Baking), I've done a fair number of combines. I've tried to notice an increase with it, but it never materialized.

Have any of you had an epiphany like this at some point in your tailoring careers? Did it pan out – or was it just a pipe dream in the end?

Yes. It's actually a little better than you are hoping (your success rate is a little low), and a little worse (the market will slowly dry up).

[Vile]

Hi !

What a great post you`ve really put a lot of thought in to it.

The one thing that I would point out to you is that if you wish to skill up on solstice robes your going to need a good supply of Imbued Emeralds ( I mean 1000s). So its gonna be worth power leveling a Tunare worshiping cleric on your 2nd account. I say cleric because they are slightly easier to power level than druids - get your cleric to 30 so you can speciallise alteration and your away !

BTW one of the best money makers I have found is Fleeting quivers - ok the HQ lion pelts are a pain to find but on Brell they sell for 2.5K and if you farm your own hide the quiver only costs about 300pp to make. A big bonus is that you will have a high success rate with a geerlok and around 190 skill.

[Lilosh]

Re: Starting funds needed to do a skill up from 158

2. My mule chanter... I have leveled an enchanter up to 24 and am happy to take her higher if needed... I could have used her earlier (Wu's) - but I'm sure she'll still come in handy later for Imbuing and making vials of mana. She also just happens to be a GM Jeweler. (I now have a source for Gem Studded Chains who will sell to me at cost. )

Well, I will digest and think over the rest of your plan, I need to comment on this.

A 250 + Geerlok enchanter is a good thing to have when doing robes.

But

A 250 + Geerlok + JCM 3 (The AA) will save you Thousands on chains. More then you can imagine. Failure rates at 250 without JC mastery is 50%. I have heard of many many chanters, with the AA, going 18 or 19 successes out of 20 combines.

Do the math, and make a new friend. Check your server forum, down in the marketplace.


Regards,
-Lilosh

[Myrron]

6 Bricks = 2 studs with no failures so lets say 7 bricks = 2 studs over the long run. (Studs of course are trivial)

If you mean 6 pieces = 2 studs, then yes. (1 brick + chisel = 2 small pieces; 6 small pieces = 3 acrylia bits = 2 studs)

6 bricks should yield 4 studs, not 2. (6 bricks = 12 small pieces = 6 acrylia bits = 4 studs)

Remember, 3 acrylia bits yields 2 studs, not 1.

Otherwise, your math looks fine. I did the exact same thing when I hit 158; I went right into cloaks. I can buy the small pieces for 20-30pp each, the hides for 100-150 each, which means that each cloak attempt is about 500pp. They sell within hours on my server priced at 750pp. Even at a skill of 168 (no geerlok), I'm seeing a 50% success rate, so I'm still losing money in the long run. However, I prefer this method over making acrylia studded masks where you can't even sell them at all, thus making any money spent unrecoverable.

Good luck!

--Myrron

[Wyrdlan]

Excellent plan, and I'm a tough critic.


Couple of points,

1) Cloaks and tunics: Excellent, but the market will fade. Definitely hold back some, avoid the appearance of 'dumping'. Seek exclusive deals for acrylia, you won't find nearly as much as you would like, so it's either farming or finding suppliers.

2) You won't make money in the low end, you can make money in thee high end if you are patient, careful, and lucky.

3) Do halfsies. By this, if you are pricing right and making small profit on tunics and cloaks you will have 'left overs' often. Burn these on masks. If you find the ratio that works for you, you can balance "cash" crops with "skill up" lots.

4) Superstitions are crap. Geerlocks, IS, nothing affects skill up rates. I'll go to my grave swearing lag does. Do you skill ups in the morning or late at night. Do your skill ups in exclusive sessions.

5) Focus on averages, not short term. You will be happier getting 24 combines per skill up than getting 2 one shotters followed by a 80 combine dry spell.

6) Hell happens. Prepare for it. You WILL have god awful runs. For me, keeping track prevents me from feeling like it will "never" end. See also #5

7) Git while the gittin is good. If you start getting depressed, stop while you are head. For me, quadding panthers in WL is a great release. Sure, I may fail their combines, but collecting the hides while causing them excruciating death makes it all better. Tailoring should be because you like it. If you have the cash, don't hesitate to blow it hoping for a lucky combine on BD even if you are far too low. If you get lucky, it'll keep you charged for a while. If not, you didn't think you would anyway. The rush is the reward. If you aren't getting a rush, this isn't for you.

8) However much cash you have isn't enough. I don't care how much you have, it isn't enough. If you have too much money you are more likely to blow it on bad deals. Pretend you are broke when shopping, and rich when selling. Get the best deal you can even if you can afford a bad deal here and there. People forget 'average' prices in a heartbeat the second they think they can sell for more and buy for less. You'll kill yourself throwing money around.

9) It's a game. If you forget to have fun, what the hell is the point?

[rassy fleetfoot]

..

a lot of good positive posts..and all correct. The superstitions i like..altho not tailoring related it is superstition related. a friend of mine is a Gm potter, she likes me to play several stat boosting songs even when working some pottery items just because it MIGHT help. I will NOT work tailoring in freeport, i have never ever gotten an improve there..im sure someone has but im not wasting combines trying anymore. freeport however is fine for smithing hehe. and yes, i found RV very nice for tailoring, i went there after a horrible run in FP, to get 4 improves in 4 combines in the middle of RV..phooey on the nay sayers!

as for "should i bother on a half elf"? sure..why not? if its what you want to do, and it fits something in your character and makes you happy..yes. If you want a lot of options at 250 and to make your fortune tailoring? no.

I am a wood elf bard, im also a 202 and working smith (also tailor) i have zero wood elf cultural options. Fletching would have been a better trade but since level 6, 2 weeks into the games release before there even was cultural, ive been a smith and i'll be ****ed if im not gm'ing it.

The point is..if you WANT to, to have fun and just do it..sure go ahead and tailor. If you want to make lots of cool little trinkets and things to sell, roll up a halfling and make them a tailor, they have a ton of options.

[Sebilrazen]

Re: Hi !

What a great post you`ve really put a lot of thought in to it.

The one thing that I would point out to you is that if you wish to skill up on solstice robes your going to need a good supply of Imbued Emeralds ( I mean 1000s). So its gonna be worth power leveling a Tunare worshiping cleric on your 2nd account. I say cleric because they are slightly easier to power level than druids - get your cleric to 30 so you can speciallise alteration and your away !

He's a Tunare worshiping druid, he can imbue the emeralds himself

[Rollopolo Rootntootn]

ideas

Here's my experience in tailoring after wu's.I started into the studded acrylia right away.I made the cloaks and tunics....and anything that wasn't being sold by some1 else....in my case,acrylia boots.Arms and legs are profitable too.There is a saying in retail:"you can't sell from empty shelves" Always have your trader stocked with as much variety as possible and always have at least 2 or 3 pieces.I found that by making a lot of one item...tunics for example,others would give up on it and you can sometimes dominate the market on that item.
FLEETING QUIVERS>money makers.200-300 for a hq lion skin,350 for distilled mana,aviak oil,griffon feathers,pattern all cheap.I sell mine for 1400 pp each now that i'm at 222 but when i started i sold a bunch at 2500 - 3k.I still sell 4-5 a day sometimes.only problem with them is that they are a container so u have to auction them.I was also lucky that when I started making them I was pretty much the only one sellin em.Start makin em in the 170's with geerlock....I had good success...2 of 3 at least at that level...I rarely fail now.I used my profits to stock up on cheap arctic wyvern supplies(cod oil,arctic wyvern pelts,velium pieces) and did runs of 30 -50 tries at a time on masks till i hit 210.Alos started reinforced in the late 180's and had decent sucess there.Above 200 reinforced has a great success rate.I have 255 int on my tailor.MAX OUT YOUR INT<WIS<WHATEVER U NEED>It makes a difference.
Superstitions....I've heard of the lag one.Also...I do my combines while i am at the bank with my bank inventory up.I went 2 of 2 on haze and 4 of 6 on tigerraptor 1 day while doin this accidently...and now I always do it.....hehe.
My hell levels were 206 - 210...on average it took me 60 tries for each one of those points.When I hit 220 I noticed my success rate on velious tailoring increase noticebly.
While u are in the bazaar buy and sell other goods as well......good profit in that as well.\


P.S.I'm a 61 ranger(125 potter,215 brewer)...my 34 necro alt is the 222 tailor...and 135 smith,176 brewer.When I was at the 160-190 lvl I farmed a lot of black panther,haze,tiger raptor in wl for the gm tailors already on my server.I made a small fortune doin that.I sold bp skins 200 each,haze skins 500 each,raptor skins 100 each,haze panther eyes 500 -750 each.One day of farming in WL made me a ton of money to tailor with.Whenever i got low on cash,back to wl i went for a few hours...great money).

good luck

[Elberethe]

Skill Ups

Hello Treeberry

I also have a 1/2 elf druid and never even thought about not being able to make cultural armor. My druid was my first character and I found tailoring to be the only way to cloth myself (there was no newbie armor quest when I started in SFG). It was also one of the few tradeskills I could manage as far as supplies were concerned with the abundance of cats and spiders so nearby (WK). I was loath to kill a bear for a LONG time, but with cats .. it was me or them and I never started it :P unless sitting down knowing full well its instant aggro counts.

I have enjoyed tailoring and never even made money on bags when I could finally do those although I swore I would. I'm to Acrylia Studded now too and having a decent start. I have only had 2 fails on 10 combines. I didn't even have the geerlok (do now tho). My problem was more with making the studs .. I might get 1 in 10 tries. I have a geerlok for that now too and have worked my smithing up past Master (instead of just letting it sit where studs were trivial). Seems more you get past the trivial mark .. more chance of success. I'm making cloaks, leggings and tunics and selling them as I make them (after me and alts and friends got one). Haven't flooded market yet as I seldom have enough acrylia to make more then 1 or 2 things.

Cost and profit ~shrugs~ I have been exchanging cloaks and tunics to friends for acrylia. Maybe its just my server (Tunare) but alot of people will gladly give you the armor and pelts for the end product and I make it clear I might fail and its going to take a sheetload of acrylia because I stink making studs! They still come with it wanting me to try.

Problem I have and maybe some of the GM's could answer this one or help. I don't think I'm getting many skill ups .. I think I only got 1 in all the acrylia armor (10 pieces) I made. Is that about right? Also, does it matter how close you are to being trivial to get a skill up.

For example, I have a ton of wyvern (my release quadding those things) and velium (easy to come by in CC). I have been making velium armor which is trivial >250 .. sure, I get massive failures .. like 20 tries I get 1 piece! But the hide and velium are easier for me to get so no big deal.

Am I wrong to think I can get skill up trying something that far out of range? Do you have to be like within 10 points of skill range to get a skill up? I started velium before 158 (trying to make cobalt drake belt and still have not managed that) and don't recall if I ever got a skill up (I have only had 1 skill up since).

I'm thinking the Solstice Robe would be a good way to get skill ups too, but again is it too far out of range (>250) for someone at 159 to get a skill up from it?

Superstitions? ops: OMG, I have a TON of them. I only tailor in Thurgadin. I always put the pelt first, then any curing (oils, etc), then any threads, then any studs, and pattern last. Just like you were making it in real life .. you would cure it first (etc). It HAS to be in the sewing kit in order. Also, I only use a Coldain sewing kit now. Once everything is in the kit, I take a deep breath and pray to the Mother of All for the beasts which gave their lives for the armor which will strengthen us in our battle against evil. Oh, and of course, you have to have KEI on and your weapons put away.

Thanks for posting all .. I have lurked a long time too.

Crystalmyst, Druid of Tunare
Master Tailor 159
Master Baker 142
Master Brewer 158
Master Blacksmith 101
Fishing 95

Mystif, Dark Enchantress
Master Jeweler 142

Elberethe, Spoiled Princess of the High City
Healer to the King
Master Baker 118

[Mnemosyne]

Elberethe: To your question of skillups:

You can get a skill up on any combine that is not trival to you. After I trived out Wu's armor i went straight to the arctic wyvern. I skilled 158 to 167 on arctic wyvern masks and to 170 (where I'm sitting now) on Othmir caps. Your runs of one skill up in 10 is relatively good as unfortunelty its going to worse from here on out. It makes me so sad to say that.

Keep working at it and remember that as long as you aren't getting a triv message on the combine there's a chance at a skill up right after

Morgani
53 Druid of Nameless

<edit: its late at night and I've been able to spell anyway>

[Meirril]

On selling things: find a price you can live with, and sell for that. Peroid, end of statement, don't care what the guy next to you is doing. If someone is selling acrylia cloaks for 500pp, and your selling for 1k the other guy will sell out. Then, people will buy yours. Why? because all of a sudden the only cloak left is yours. Don't try to overprice something just to make a few plat (especialy while someone else is offering a bargain. then you just look like an idiot), but also don't try despratly to sell something. That kind of thinking makes you loose money.
Also, study what's available for what price. When I make acrylia for sale I make studded cloaks, plate BP, and plate leggings. why? Because there is a market for them. The cloak is one of the best wis items commonly available in the game. If you want something better, you wind up paying alot more than 1k. The plate BP is another case where you can sell it for a reasonable price (so that you make a decent proffit, even buying all the ingredients) because it's stats are in a range where there isn't much competition from dropped BPs. If they made a dropped BP with equal AC and similar stats that could be taken by a solo character around level 60 or less and it wasn't an ultra rare drop the market for acrylia plate BPs would dry up. As it is, the closest competition it has costs about 3k more than I charge (and has about 1 more AC and a few more stats.). Same goes for the leggings (decent leggings are SO hard to find. seesh!). If I suddenly realized that Reinforced Acrylia Boots were highly desirable in a price range that was reasonable to buy the ingredients for and produce them I'd be making them as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't just make a few of every acrylia item you can and expect them all to sell. You'll find out what sells that way but it seems like a waste if you do the reserch first and see whats out there that competes.

One idea I can suggest: try hunting velium hounds and velium mastadons. Velium hound fur can be combined with silver thread and dosen't trivial till 170-something. If you bother to skill up JC and smithing (and hunt geonids in WL) you can take the product and make engraved royal velium armors. Not exactly fast moving product but it sells for a nice proffit (since you have to farm almost all the ingredients anyways). If your working up to the 8th shawl, you might as well skill up your tailoring a bit on velium hound fur. Oh, and sell off the mastadon fur. It should sell well still to those who can work with tailoring recipees that trivial above 250. Right now they sell for over 1k on Fennin Ro. Maybe less on your server, maybe more.

[Treeberry]

I want to thank everyone for their words of advice and encouragement, this weekend I had nothing but fun working on tailoring. I was able to get enough raw material for about 10 combines. I had 5 successes (4 cloaks & 1 tunic) and 5 failures. And, best of all, one skill up!

It was great to pass some of the gear out to some good friends that needed it and almost as fun to sell the extra's on my bazaar mule. I have no illusions about flooding the market any more - the components just take too long to gather. I have decided that if I do see my stock build to more then 3 or 4 items of a particular type - I'll just experiment with other pieces and see how they move. I also decided to take the high road on pricing and to not try to compete with other people who might be dumping on to the market. I still manage to sell - it just might take a day or two longer... not a problem I am happy to wait.

If you have the cash, don't hesitate to blow it hoping for a lucky combine on BD even if you are far too low. If you get lucky, it'll keep you charged for a while. If not, you didn't think you would anyway.

I really took this idea to heart and decided to have some fun dabbling in Othmir and Drake gear. The change of scenery really helped to break up the monotony of farming the grimlings and baku in Tenebrous for ore - and the exp wasn't bad either! (Now I have a new goal for my chanter: need to hit 29 so I can start making clear mana for the drake gear.)

[Wyrdlan]

so I can start making clear mana for the drake gear

Backwards, othmir.

[Elberethe]

Thankyou Mnemosyne I helped a mage get a spell last night that drops off holgreshes too and collected 10 pelts .. now, looking at the recipe, I'm not terribly impressed by the stats on Holgresh Fur items .. is it gonna be worth buying a vial of purified mana to attempt a skill up? I realize if I get a skill up its worth 100 vials, but, uhmm what I mean is IF I should suceed does anyone actually buy these things? Cap & cloak are looking best .. suggestions?

Tree! Be careful out there farming Othmirs if you plan on making your own coldain velium for velium smithing. Stuff costs like 30plat off a vendor and you can make it for less then 10, BUT you need brown algae to make one of the components (coldain heaters) and I believe ONLY place you can buy that is from the Othmir vendor on the beach by the brew barrel.

I trade for othmir furs or buy them straight out while there hunting wyverns, cod, drake and just getting down to the tunes No killing the cute little guys.

Anyone else notice the othmirs & wyverns walk to the beat of the music even while being quad kited? It is just too cute.