Why not normal progression in armor?

[flip0009]

I have just started making armor and managed to do banded. I know my next step is ornate chain (silver). That is what the game gives me. But why such a fixed pathway for armor? Why not ornate banded all the way to platinum? Why not a plain chain without precious metals? Why not a multiple progession of plate?

Banded could have three paths with reg ore, med ore, HQ ore and each of those paths should be devided into the silver, gold, electrum and platinum paths. The same with chain and plate. There should be a morass of paths to persue tradeskills instead of just a single route with maybe one or two splits in the path of tradeskill advance.

They could make the whole pathing a huge muddle where each smith has to meander his own way through. Each of the three armors should have three different progessions of three different kinds or ore devided in three different qualities as well as the ornate add ons of the four precious metals with all the pathways ending with the rarest HQ ore and the rarest precios metal at skill 250. Throw in the ability to imbue all armors all along the line and the whole process would really get creative.

[sumamael]

Back in the day when we could only make banded armor.....

It's all history now but you could only make ornate chain with silver for a long time. All the other metal combinations were introduced in the past year as a skill up bridge.

Anyway, I hope SOE won't waste resources and programer man hours to introduce HQ banded that no one will ever want to wear when there are so many other issues waiting to be fixed in the tradeskill system.

[slappig]

Lower levels armors are worthless except for skillups

The ac and stat levels of all the lower armors should be adjusted IMO to make the armors more useable. I outfit new chars in banded or fine plate, even though I 'started' with patchwork, rawhide, reinforced, studded etc. Once I got rygor, that was it for tailored armor ..then I went sebilite, barbed ringmail..and now I'm back in Tunare Scout and Tae Ew..only because the stats on these new armors were relatively decent. I'll bother with acrylia and velious armours only for skill ups. Having 250+ trivials with hard to get components, for armor that is on the same level as some common drops isn't worth the effort of having them. My 2 cents..FWIW
{edit note: I noticed that much of my posts referred to tailored armors, but I feel it applies to smithed armors as well..my skill levels are around 158 in both smithing and tailoring atm..}

[Haphern]

As I've said elsewhere, the high end cultural armour may just have been *gasp* a bit too good (waits for the stones to start sailing through the air at him).

But, yes, currently the quality of smithed items, as with most other tradeskills, is hugely weighted towards the high end.
Tradeskills *are* broken, they were never really thought through well enough at the beginning imho. My only hope is that EQ2 (which I'm not going to play) has a logical progression through all skill levels.

I'm not saying that EQ tradeskills can never be fixed, just that the work necessary would be immense. Mudflation would account for 95% of the problems from the start and that isn't even a tradeskill problem per se but an environmental one =(.

[Angelsyn]

On a server where the economy isn't tanked, lower-end armours are just fine AC/Stat-wise.

It's only the commonality of Ry'Gorr, Crusty, Val Cust, etc. that makes lower-level player-made armours so "weak".

Also, with so many people "skilling-up" and selling their work at cut-rate prices... that further tanks the economy for player-made goods.

It's too late to fix it... it'll take an entirely new game, not just a new server.

[sumamael]

It's too late to fix it... it'll take an entirely new game, not just a new server.

I have to agree with Angelsyn in this issue. We can only hope that SOE will adapt the know how and use the statistics aquired from SW:G about player driven economy and item decay and going to balance EQ2 with those informations in mind. /crosses fingers

[kiztent]

Re: Lower levels armors are worthless except for skillups

The ac and stat levels of all the lower armors should be adjusted IMO to make the armors more useable.

Usable how? I find a quit suit of banded is a decent gift for someone starting the game who may or may not pan out. Fine plate has never been useful, let it lie. Same with ornate chain. I made some pieces when they were still high trivial and they were as useless now as they were then.

Unless you make smithing require farming, introducting a low trivial armour with worthwhile stats will.... make it worthless. Since the market for that armour will sink to just above vendor price as everyone skills up on it. Don't believe me? Check the solstice robe market on your server. Or the sickle market. Hell, check the price of a solstice earring kit compared to a mosquito leg earring.

[KyrosKrane]

It would appear, then, that the solution is to have two distinct paths for each tradeskill. One set of items with no real value other than being easy to make (hence, a skillup path), and another set of items with real value, but much harder to make (hence, a retail path).

To some extent, you have this in Fletching. Arrows are cheap to make (relatively), don't need any farmed components until skill >202, and I believe they can take you to 250. However, there is no real market for arrows, as the class that gets the most benefit from them (rangers) also tends to be the class attracted to fletching in the first place.

The money in Fletching (such as it is) comes from the bows. Even with the pitiful prices on nightmarewood bows now (they're so common it's not funny), you could still make a profit buying most of the components and making the bow yourself for resale. If you farm the components, of course, you'll make a much larger profit. Higher end bows sell pretty quickly at obscene prices.

The skillup and retail paths are completely distinct. Bows are impractical to skill up on due to cost and difficulty, and arrows are not the most marketable commodity. Yes, you can still sell arrows, but not for much.

I wonder if it would be possible to split smithing this way? On Veeshan, at least, you kind-of have this effect; no one really wants banded, ornate chain, or fine plate armor except for special purposes (e.g., a custom suit of armor for a wedding). Shadowscream also falls into the skillup category, despite being excellent armor for lowbies. Some cultural armors, like Heraldic, fall squarely into the retail category due to the sheer nuisance of obtaining some of the components, especially essence of sunlight. Most of the planar armors are also retail items.

The problem comes when you have an item like the mistletoe cutting sickle. It's both a great skillup path (very easy to get the components compared to other options, if a bit expensive), and a great retail item (new characters will always keep demand for more solstice earrings going).

If you're prososing a new set of armor with relatively low trivials that could be both a skillup path and a retail item, then it will bomb. As Kiztent mentioned, its resale value will be just above its vendor buyback price since everyone and their kid brother will be making it.

Now, where I could see some interesting developments would be if they make a series of NO DROP armors, at multiple skill levels. (So, one suit around 75 skill, another around 150 skill, and a third around 225 skill.) You could use this as a skillup path, but it will cost you plenty -- you can't resell the armor, even to a vendor. It creates a useful product, but only for you. It provides a reward for skilling up in smithing without flooding the market. And if the stats on the armor are balanced correctly, it would compete with the easy drops. Say, the 75-skill armor would be comparable to Validus Custodus or Crusty or Ry'Gorr, the 225 would be comparable to Heraldic, and the 150 somewhere inbetween.

What do you think?

[Zeralenn]

I have never found much of a viable retail path in smithing. The only items that seem in consistent demand on most servers (I say most because Stromm is something of an exception, though growing less so every day) are very high-level items like planar armor and Tae Ew stuff. Even high/mid level cultural stuff moves rather slowly, at least on my server.

Oh, there are items you CAN sell from time to time -- you can occasionally sell baking dishes and you can occasionally sell studs and boning (acrylia versions sell slightly better) and you CAN occasionally sell midlevel cultural, but for the most part anything you are making up until the highest grandmaster level will require a lot of patience to sell. And even the high level stuff can require a lot of patience depending on your server. I have had a Dark Prince Sovereign tunic on sale for a month at a very good price and no takers yet.

...Zera

[kiztent]

It would appear, then, that the solution is to have two distinct paths for each tradeskill. One set of items with no real value other than being easy to make (hence, a skillup path), and another set of items with real value, but much harder to make (hence, a retail path).

Smithing has that. Unfortunately, the retail path (lower number of combines due to hard to get raw materials and salable end result), is also 250 trivial - just like nightmare wood bows. And I don't think any pre-250 trivial bows sell these days - though I could be wrong.

The idea of sliding trivial no drop armour seems good, but I'd have several concerns:
1 - it would need to be mudflated or become outdated. 75 trivial armour with crustacian stats? *cough* I wore crustacian legs at 52 and liked them - and if I could have made them with 194 smithing, I would've. I wore banded gloves (all I could afford) on my first character and liked them too and they were well above 75 trivial at the time too - and I had to buy them because I couldn't afford to skill up smithing.
2 - It could turn into another epic quest. Now, some people like doing epic quests. Me, I listened to people whine about not having epics for 6 months, every day I logged in (if you really loved me you would sit in timorous deep for 2 hours while I try to get people interested in yet another epic raid, sniffle. AHHH, my children will LEAVE ME if it do not have my epic, come die repeatly in Chardok, OMG, my poor children with a parent with no epic!). If the armour was good enough and had a retarded enough drop rate, it could easily meet or surpass the sheer irritation that epics cause people. If it wasn't that annoying, it would be trivial, which isn't good either.

[KyrosKrane]

The idea of sliding trivial no drop armour seems good, but I'd have several concerns:
1 - it would need to be mudflated or become outdated. 75 trivial armour with crustacian stats? *cough* I wore crustacian legs at 52 and liked them

Yes and no ... consider the newbie armors, which are similar in philosophy. Sure, the stats aren't spectacular compared to cheap items from the bazaar, but they're still quite nice items, they're free (unless you buy the components), and they're something you've earned for yourself. Can you get better within a few levels? Sure ... but by then, your smithing skill will also be a bit higher, and maybe you could try the second level armor.

As to the comparison to Crusty or Validus Custodus, it was just an idea for reference. The specific stats could be adjusted to suit the armor level and the class wearing it. Maybe Crusty armor would be better suited for the second-level armor; I don't know. The point it, you'd have three levels, each an improvement over the last.

2 - It could turn into another epic quest.

Actually, I was thinking of having it be almost completely storebought, but with one ultra-common farmed component. (Think Bricks of Crude Iron Ore or Bricks of Crude Bronze for newbie armors.) This allows the easy-but-costly skillup path (easily accessible components at a high price, since they're vendor sold) and doesn't require large raids or long camps (which reduces the annoyance factor). If the drops needed are tradable, you could even buy / sell them in the bazaar, which creates another market -- but if they're common enough drops, there's little point.

[Cavel]

Looking over this topic I would only like to add one thing... The original poster stated that they would like to see some other paths for skill ups. I personally agree with that, the items could be complete crap in my opinion and still be a viable skill up path.

Don't believe me? Any smith out there with a skill above 200 that does not know Hollowshade Moore like the back of his/her hand? I would be supprized. I am also sure that there are more non-Vah Shir running around with Vah Shir smithing items than Vah Shir.

To restate I would not care if the items we could make sold or not, I just want something that will allow me to skill up without having to spend hours foraging , killing greens or doing some epic level quest.

Sorry that turned into a rant at the end

[kiztent]

The idea of sliding trivial no drop armour seems good, but I'd have several concerns:
1 - it would need to be mudflated or become outdated. 75 trivial armour with crustacian stats? *cough* I wore crustacian legs at 52 and liked them

Yes and no ... consider the newbie armors, which are similar in philosophy. Sure, the stats aren't spectacular compared to cheap items from the bazaar, but they're still quite nice items, they're free (unless you buy the components), and they're something you've earned for yourself. Can you get better within a few levels? Sure ... but by then, your smithing skill will also be a bit higher, and maybe you could try the second level armor.

As to the comparison to Crusty or Validus Custodus, it was just an idea for reference. The specific stats could be adjusted to suit the armor level and the class wearing it. Maybe Crusty armor would be better suited for the second-level armor; I don't know. The point it, you'd have three levels, each an improvement over the last.

Smithing to that level would have to be VERY cheap to skill up. I could probably get a full suit of Validus or visible of crustacian for under a K. Newbie armour is no drop too - imagine if it wasn't (honestly, not that anyone on SH would buy it). I'd buy passable no drop smithed armour, except all the dress wearers would whine, and if it was decent tradable armour, it would be a bad idea too.

2 - It could turn into another epic quest.

Actually, I was thinking of having it be almost completely storebought, but with one ultra-common farmed component. (Think Bricks of Crude Iron Ore or Bricks of Crude Bronze for newbie armors.) This allows the easy-but-costly skillup path (easily accessible components at a high price, since they're vendor sold) and doesn't require large raids or long camps (which reduces the annoyance factor). If the drops needed are tradable, you could even buy / sell them in the bazaar, which creates another market -- but if they're common enough drops, there's little point.

Nope, nope, bad idea. You've essentially trashed the market for ANY item with lower stats. I mean, did you not pay attention during the solstice earring craze? Did you not watch what happened to the price of the earring's components once people discovered they could skill up on it? Skill up items are useless to try to profit on unless they require mad farming or are no drop. If they are not useless, they will be once people get done skilling up on them. Consider fishing poles (rare forage in PITA zone, market holding well) versus sickles (20 on sale for 750, 19 more for 900 last I checked).

I mean it's nice and all to put decent items in the hands of deserving noobs and twinks, but I believe that any item that has a market that will hold (and will thereby be worth making) will require difficult farming and 250ish trivial (or make it no drop). Doing anything else will just start another spiral of gear upgrades.

And it's nice to try and make skilling up less painful, but it's a bad idea for several reasons. First, if it's easier to skill up, more people will and that will increase supply and lower prices. Second, unless you do a skill restriction on the check to make the stuff (max skill), the hordes of 250 smiths from Aid Grimel will hammer the market down to just above storebought costs (if it's worht selling, if it isn't it doesn't meet your criteria). Third you assume that people won't abuse the market (since the market not being abused is the only way to profit) - which is a nice thought filled with positive impressions of other people, but wildly incorrect in practice.

This has been tried before in other tradeskills. It has yet to work in the way people want it to. If they make the gravy train, everyone will ride it into the ground.

The problem is the number if items you get skilling up versus the number you need to outfit people.

[KyrosKrane]

Kiztent, my proposed three-tier armors are all no-drop. You can't even vendor them back for some cash, let alone bazaar them. That's the whole point.

Care to try your post again? :twisted:

Edit:

From my original proposal:

Now, where I could see some interesting developments would be if they make a series of NO DROP armors, at multiple skill levels. (So, one suit around 75 skill, another around 150 skill, and a third around 225 skill.) You could use this as a skillup path, but it will cost you plenty -- you can't resell the armor, even to a vendor. It creates a useful product, but only for you. It provides a reward for skilling up in smithing without flooding the market. And if the stats on the armor are balanced correctly, it would compete with the easy drops.

Additionally, this doesn't have to be confined to smithing. Maybe the armors should be tailored, and you could make weapons via smithing. Or maybe it's pottered stat items, or food and drink from brewing and baking. (Think Bristlebane's platter with one-tenth the stats, but still no drop.)

I'm just using smithing as an example because that's where the idea originated.

[kiztent]

Kiztent, my proposed three-tier armors are all no-drop. You can't even vendor them back for some cash, let alone bazaar them. That's the whole point.

Care to try your post again? :twisted:

Good thing I said this would have to be no drop to work :P