New PoP Smithing

[wombat]

Ok, we know they are upping the drops on mini mobs and will be doing other things to make mellees less useless against the higher PoP mobs (eg Rogues against nasty DS mobs).

Smithing should have a role in this. If better weapons and armour are to be dropped more commonly, it will make BD pieces the new Fine Plate and do likewise to Tae Ew and Black Acrylia weapons. We don’t want a repeat of Rygor Chain wiping out Fine Plate while the Old cultural had huge temper bottlenecks.

Thus Smithing needs an upgrade beyond the current recipes (unless the drop rate of inferno+ ingrediants is greatly increased).

An idea I have forwarded to the Developers Corner is that existing armours/weapons etc get PoP tempers or special items allowing them to add stats in AC, resists, DPS etc. Should this work the same as Dyes or should fails be completely destroyed?

Any way what do you think? I think it is worth having a discussion on our place in the upgrading of the games equipment post 55/60lvl (probably), otherwise higher level Smithing will be relegated to, once a month, smithing a rare piece of Eci, Inferno etc

Remember the PoP AC soft cap is 1800ac.

The good news is that the game designers seem to be responding faster to changes in game mechanics than they did before?

[kiztent]

Re: New PoP Smithing

Remember the PoP AC soft cap is 1800ac.

No it isn't.

http://steelwarrior.xwarzone.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145

2100 AC starts to give less benefit, but there are still benefits.

Without going into why I think this, I don't think asking for more smithing fixes is worthwhile. I believe the high end smithing was a failed experiment, and we should just let it lie.

[Haphern]

As has probably been suggested before, why not make multi-tradeskill items ?
For example:-
Imbued Gem (diety specific) + bar of enchanted planar metal + planar blood + blank emblem = planar(nightmare etc.) emblem of diety. (jewelcraft, 350 triv)
This emblem can then be used in various tailoring/smithing/pottery recipes to make various weapons/armour/shields/charms with stats dependant on diety and planar metal used.
Req. 46 on tier one items used, 55 on tier 2, 62 on tier 3 and 65 on tier 4 to attempt to place these items on characters that should be using them.

The Devs should already know what level of items they want to be dropping from specific tiers and, by using the req. level, can be aiming the items at specific people rather than having them used as twink tools.

[Reflan]

I think that it would be nice, now that I've finally pushed smithing close to 250, if I could sell what I make a little more easily. As far as I know, I'm the only active ogre GM on my server -- being that I can make ogre and troll stuff and both make extremely popular warriors and shamans, and sometimes shadowknights, there would be quite a market if the stuff was just a bit better. BP's with AC 53, HP 60 mana 20 STR 10, some with INT 5 added in, is nice, and the Inny stuff is especially nice. But weirdly enough, ogre smiths can't even make the best ogre rallos zek armor, and there are so many alternatives out there.

There is a reason many smiths of even the most popular smithed cultural armor out there, the fierce heraldic, often only make to order. The market for smithed cultural is very small. And tae ew--that's getting more heavily dated by the minute and has already flooded most servers, and there are even guys making it at 200 skill occasionally.

[wombat]

hmm

Hmm good points all. Kiz thats some good info, the point I was trying to make that just because you may be at the old world AC soft cap (1250ac) didnt mean there was no point in increasing it. If the PoP AC soft cap is 2000+ it only reinforces the argument.

I wish to continue doing new things with my smithing, the current system isnt allowing for much of that and is in danger of trivialising the existing high end smithing with proposed changes/existing drops/quests.

That sounds like a great idea Haph, I would have no problems with that system Whether you need to involve other trades depends on whether they are adequately catered for already of course.

[Naedea]

The "soft cap" on AC varies depending on the attack capability of the mob you are fighting.

[wombat]

Cap?

It does? Thanks for that info, I thought there was a generic cap for PoP.

Anyway with quested PoP Plate BP’s being 100ac for the best one (albeit rare) and the drops for the uber smithable stuff vanishingly small, the making of 51ac BD Plate looks like our current cap.

If Sony are going to pump up mellee’s with new uber dropped stuff to make them relevant, then unless they are going to give an big increase to disciplines instead, we are facing a repeat of the Fine Plate – Rygor Chain debacle where a large chunk of smithed armour became useless.

Rangers at least may need better armour if the rumour of the “rebound” DS is true, imagine your arrow bouncing back at you for 400hp!

[kiztent]

Re: Cap?

If Sony are going to pump up mellee’s with new uber dropped stuff to make them relevant, then unless they are going to give an big increase to disciplines instead, we are facing a repeat of the Fine Plate – Rygor Chain debacle where a large chunk of smithed armour became useless.

This is the exact reason I don't recommend adding better smithed armours. One of three things will happen.

1 - it will suck and no one will care except people skilling up. Why bother adding it in the first place then?
2 - it will not suck and be attainable by any level (like BD cultural - 'anyone' can farm BDs and tempers) - this will result in 250 smiths (and with Aid Grimel there are a LOT of them) instantly trashing the market for the item and another round of mudflation. Since mudflation cuts down on replayability, Sony should not introduce anything like this.
3 - It will suck and be attainable by high levels/raids (like PoP armour) - this will result in the low levels whining how monstrously unfair this is to them (like PoP armour). If I were doing tradeskills, I'd be disinclined to change the game to increase the amount of whining I heard.

So the choices for new smithed armour are irrelevance, mudflation or whining.

Bad idea.

[wombat]

hmm

Well if smithing doesn’t stay relevant then you may as well not do it at all! It needs to change with the game or it will become useless.

The trick is balance. If parts are too hard to get or too easy to make etc then its no good. Provide the genuine upper level smiths with some opportunities that exist outside uber raiding please.

[kiztent]

Re: hmm

Well if smithing doesn’t stay relevant then you may as well not do it at all! It needs to change with the game or it will become useless.

Given the failure of smithing to provide useful upgrades since Ry'gorr armour came out, that's pretty much my opinion - it's useless. PoP is a good balance, but, as always, those that get the flags and play more benefit more, which is precisely your complaint.

The trick is balance. If parts are too hard to get or too easy to make etc then its no good. Provide the genuine upper level smiths with some opportunities that exist outside uber raiding please.

So how do you propose to distinguish the 'genuine' upper level smiths from the fake ones, is there a secret handshake or something? You want raid quality armour without raiding - right?

How do you introduce the drops into the game without trashing the market. Here's a free hint for you - a group of 65s will mow through ANY mob you can kill faster than you can. You're more patient than they are? Bull****. More devoted to your skill? Only because they don't see the benefits. So how do you propose to prevent the market for the raid armour without raiding to stay stable (that is, so you can reap profits)? Don't forget with Aid Grimel, most uber guilds can field a half dozen or more people with 250 smithing to do any combine you propose.

It's not like people in uberguilds started EQ and sent Furor a tell and after careful questioning he decided they could be uber and suddenly phat lewts rained from the sky. The people in uber guilds are in uber guilds because they are driven to see the content you never will, and they spend more time than you do playing Everquest. Anything in game you can do, they can do faster and easier. The only way to prevent them from moving in is to make it not worth their time to do it. You don't get something for nothing. That's why there's no way to benefit the casual smith - except for no drop armour, and you can't make money off that (but I'd like to see it in game).

[Mahlig]

Well, Kiz...it wouldn't be so bad if the market got trashed if I made my money BEFORE it was trashed.

[Lupoman]

this is turning into a primal scream topic.

I see what he was saying, as a lvl 63 (my case), it is tough if yer guild is not raiding those tier 3+ zones, Most grps are all from one guild and all have their own loot rules once they get to that zone. I think he is jus saying he would like an alt way for himself to get the drops and make the highend smithing stuff too. I dont blame him. I personally didnt like the opening up of the zones to non-flagged peeps.

Nuts i started ranting too! :roll:

[wombat]

hmm

KIz, don’t assume I don’t put in the hours or the effort. While I don’t play 24/7 I levelled my main up while smithing his own armour which I still wear. Equipping myself and my guild is my main objective, not phat lewt!

I do however play off peak and less than 6 hours a day. I did smithing because I “genuinely” wanted a Dwarf Smith as part of the RP aspect and to make something useful for my level. I didnt do it as a secondary objective on the way to something else. Vocational Smiths level slowly as a rule, I have been playing 2.5 years and am lvl56, but am master of all the trades I can do and have good faction in most cities I can smith in.

I don’t want freebies, I just don’t want the Rygorr/Fine Plate situation repeated. I also want a part in the mellee gear upgrade to give smiths a role beyond BD. I am currently not smithing much at all apart from Tae Ew, after Guild blud raids. I would like new goals to make items better than what I can now, the PoP armour could do this, but drops are too rare to reasonably fill the void. I have suggested options in order to upgrade existing armour but other solutions are possible.

If I live in the bazaar to buy components then I don’t hunt ingredients and level so I can hunt/raid more. I am not sure I could keep a group interested in the planes to camp rare drop items for smithing, thus I must buy them or rely on getting a drop every few weeks. This is hardly keeping busy smithing!

I do object to the assumption that only the uber guild smiths should be able to progress in smithing, by all means have some drops in PoT but provide other options elswhere, that, while not as uber, are still worthwhile.

[kiztent]

Re: hmm

I do object to the assumption that only the uber guild smiths should be able to progress in smithing, by all means have some drops in PoT but provide other options elswhere, that, while not as uber, are still worthwhile.

That's not the assumption I'm making. Go back and read my post again.

[wombat]

hmm

“Don't forget with Aid Grimel, most uber guilds can field a half dozen or more people with 250 smithing to do any combine you propose.

Anything in game you can do, they can do faster and easier. The only way to prevent them from moving in is to make it not worth their time to do it. You don't get something for nothing. That's why there's no way to benefit the casual smith - except for no drop armour, and you can't make money off that (but I'd like to see it in game).” - Kiz

I am not casual, simply not a peak time player in an uber guild. I am BECOMING very casual but that isnt my choice Basically you are saying anyone not in an uber guild should give up?

So the uber guilds mop any ingredient drops for better than BD, and they never make it to non uber guild smiths?

If they are getting adequate supplies of Eci + armour and the quested gear, then there is no need to bother with anything lower which still leaves room for others. The question of game economics is vext. Basically a 30% success rate and slow (but not rare), but not impossible drops, keeps the value of items longer and level restrictions avoids twinking. High success rates devalued Tae Ew gear, very fast.

If you upgraded BD armour using reasonably available PoP tempers (for instance) but more than one up grade would risk losing the lot that would slow things down while still keeping interest to a Smith. For example use a temper plus specific gem for the attribute, to upgrade AC by 10, 30% success at 250, temper lost on fail. Further upgrade by FR 10 with 60% success but on fail all is lost. Technically could have all Stats up by 10 but virtually no chance of cumulative success and huge numbers of fails doing it (money sink). Or upgrade AC by 10 = 30% chance further upgrade by 10ac = 30% success, lose the lot on a fail the second time.

Either that or drop the chance of success by 30% each time you add an attribute.

Anyway you get my drift. (I hope)