A New thought on GoD weapons

[Lickity]

Lots have advocated lowering the drop rates on the GoD smithed weapons so that the market can readjust to the influx of far superior weapons. After looking at the drop rate vs. PoP EP drop rates, they aren't that far out of line, so perhaps a better solution is to raise the trivial on the final combine. As it sits, when I sit down to make weapons, I can expect to succeed probably 90% of the time with maxed smithing skill. Raising this trivial to the 300-335 range would help solve the problem of the market flood for two reasons.

1) it would put success almost out of reach of non-GM smiths.
2) the success rate would drop to about 75-50%, taking weapons not only off the market, but their ingredients out of game as well.

Perhaps raising the lower combines trivials as well, like the 2nd to last combine where you take the JC items and put them in the forge for a very low trivial (220ish iirc)
I caution, however, advocating raising the trivials for the JC combines. As it works now, the failure rate on the JC subcombines is low, if it were raised, this Smithing market would turn into a JCM market like PoP jewelry.

[Delores Mulva]

After looking at the drop rate vs. PoP EP drop rates

I disagree strongly. The rate at which GoD tradeskill items are coming into the world is much higher, both on an individual basis (1/hour with a standard XP group, compare that to any rare component for elemental tradeskills) and in terms of camp availability. You can camp the upper end GoD tradeskill items anywhere in Kod'Taz+. By comparison, the rare elemental items require specific camps with a limited number of spawns.

I might have agreed with you a little over one week ago. But seven days ago I was asked to make velium gemmed weapons for resale by my guild. I currently have nearly 100 of shimmering nihilite and bars of shimmering ore on my main, over 40 finished velium gemmed weapons on my trader (and 10 velium inlaid claws), and have been told that they have "a ton more of that available". We're ONE of the five (was six, two guilds merged) Kod'Taz+ guilds on the server, one of which is an open raiding organization. Last night I watched the drops on the raid - more dropped than I've sold to the market on my best (150 K pp in sales at prices ranging from 9 K to 14 K each) days. There's too much.

Delores Mulva
Lotus Cult
Quellious

[ironic]

/agree Delores- the drop rates on shimmering ore and nihilite are -much- higher than the rare EP drops needed to make anything worthwhile, and I know this because I've got two stacks each of shimmering ore and nihilite that I've vendored just in the short time since GoD has come out, whereas since the release of PoP, I've vendored, iirc, a total of two vegerog vines. one oil of a frog, two elemental stones, and, I think, three obsideanwood saps. And although I'd like to attribute this to "nobody on Saryrn knows what shimmering ore and nihilite are for, so it all gets sold to vendors", I can't- our market is saturated with velium gemmed weaps as well as the raw materials.

Now, I'm not saying that upping the trivial isn't called for here...in fact, I think that it is. But I also think that the drop rate needs to be throttled pretty significantly (like, to the point of suspending drops of shimmering ore and nihilite entirely for a couple months), or the market for any non-velium gemmed droppable weapon in the game is going to be pretty much destroyed.

-aye

[Aneya]

And why should cheap weapons for the casual player be a bad thing?

[Delores Mulva]

Because those cheap weapons destroy the value of everything else in the game? Pretty much any weapon you could get in a camp, as a casual player, is now worthless. Zones and zones of raid content that should be used by casual players that can now complete it with enhanced AA's/levels is likewise useless. By releasing these weapons in these numbers, instead of opening up areas for casual players it restricts the number of places you'll go.

When I'm looking for bargains in The Bazaar, I like doing things like searching for all +HP items in a given slot, then sorting by HPs. All else being equal, the prices on items from sorts like this usually go exactly as one would expect: highest +HP item costs the most, the second highest +HP item costs the second most, and so on. If an item doesn't follow this rule, it's usually from an extra focus effect that distorts price (+ATK, mana regen, etc.), factors that are related to the classes that can use the item (like a +50 HP item with no mana that is INT caster only), or commonality (like cheap LDoN items). These weapons are way below what they should be selling at based on this simple test. They don't have an extra focus, there's no special class factors, so the conclusion is the commonality is out of whack. And it is.

[Aethn]

Because those cheap weapons destroy the value of everything else in the game?

Incorrect.

Expansions devalue items. Two points here:

1) Each time a new expansion comes out, the previous expansions items are less desierable. Shimmering weapons are no different then when EP armors which are no different then Velious armors. With each new expansion, the former becomes obsolete.

2) EP armor component drop rates are broken. They are clearly not evan across the board, which as been comfirmed and being worked on by SOE. Earth Silks, especially Robes, sell for pennies on the dollar in Bazaar due to the extremely common nature of the components.

I've vendored, iirc, a total of two vegerog vines.

That has nothing to do with the drop rate of vines. In fact vines are super common drops. The reason Vines are so rare is everyone zone camps Earth for EXP. They are too affraid to actually move past the ramp. When I EXP in earth, I move into the zone. It is not uncommon for my group to leave a 4 hour EXP session with no less then 10-15 vines a night.

I might have agreed with you a little over one week ago. But seven days ago I was asked to make velium gemmed weapons for resale by my guild

So what your saying is that since you have 60-80 people farming drops for you and your trader is full of weapons to sell, the drop rates should be lowered for everyone else that is using EXP groups to farm 1-2 drops a night.

[Aneya]

Because those cheap weapons destroy the value of everything else in the game?

When I hear that a fellow BST from a family guild I left for a raiding guild is estatic about the VIC he just got from the bazaar, I know that cheap weapons hasn't destroyed the one most important thing in the game. The joy of the game. In fact for some it has rekindled a fading flame.

I like your idea of comparing item HPs though. I usualy compare by AC or stat but not HP.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

When I hear that a fellow BST from a family guild I left for a raiding guild is estatic about the VIC he just got from the bazaar, I know that cheap weapons hasn't destroyed the one most important thing in the game. The joy of the game. In fact for some it has rekindled a fading flame.

Well, "joy" is a touchy thing. Sure, s/he's happier now, but what about in a month? If that VIC is the last weapon s/he'll get for another year, whereas if not for the VIC s/he'd be working on various weapon upgrade camps/quests/buys every few months, each with their own sense of both joy and accomplishment, has the VIC really helped overall happiness, or decreased it?

I know that was one of the things that started pushing me out of the game - I was starting to top-out on gear. With a mix of Underfoot, Skyshrine (HoT), ornate, and WToV&NToV drops, there were very few realistic upgrades for me (given my playstyle). Without any gear or quest goals to pursue, and only grinding levels&AA as the main "things to do", I really lost interest. What got me to come back was finally doing the shawl & coldain rings - gear that I'll probably never use, but they at least grant that sense of accomplishment and achievement.

[Delores Mulva]

Incorrect.

Expansions devalue items. Two points here:

1) Each time a new expansion comes out, the previous expansions items are less desierable. Shimmering weapons are no different then when EP armors which are no different then Velious armors. With each new expansion, the former becomes obsolete.

Yes, but only when there's gross commonality issues are values destroyed like we're seeing here. The best droppable items in game have fairly high values because they're the most desired, then the next best, and so on. Right now, the best droppable H2H in game is selling for 9 K when, just before Kod'Taz was breached on my server, the best droppable H2H in game (Golden Wraps of the Compact) was selling for close to 100 K. Compare this to, say, plate boots, where the old "best in class" (the boots off Tormax) are now selling for 70-80 K and the new "best in class" (LDoN Hard level 65 boots) are now selling for what the Tormax boots used to sell for, close to 100 K. Things get devalued, but the selling price of a "best in class" item doesn't change much even if the actual best in class item does.

So what your saying is that since you have 60-80 people farming drops for you and your trader is full of weapons to sell, the drop rates should be lowered for everyone else that is using EXP groups to farm 1-2 drops a night.

Players in the guild don't farm on behalf of the guild during non-raid time. I'm selling weapons from drops obtained from random trash mobs we clear as we go from point A to point B. In experience groups, my experience has been one each of raw shimmering nihilite and shimmering aligned ore will drop per hour clearing standard mobs in Kod'Taz with a group of six. This drop rate seems to be reflected in the inventory of the person on my server that four-boxes Kod'Taz. That drop rate, combined with the guarantee of two refined products by using the turn-in NPCs in Abysmal and the roughly 90% overall success rate creating a weapon (my success rate so far is almost exactly 7 for 8, 87.5%), means that every XP group in Kod'Taz+ is bringing weapons into the game at an alarming rate, much higher than if they'd been farming weapons off named mobs in standard dungeons.

What I'm saying is reduce the drop rate so someone doing XP in Kod'Taz, or Yxtta, or any of the other zones where this stuff drops at least takes as long to gather components for one weapon as it would for Bobby Joe's full group to get a Ykesha in Lower Guk, or a Crystalline Spider Fang in Velk's, or a Lammy in Sebilis, or... get the picture? The fact that you can farm components for these in dozens of locations throughout GoD means they'll still be coming into the game at a higher rate than other named-drop weapons, but no one person (or guild) could churn out a ton of weapons at once and destroy value. LDoN Hard adventure items hold their value nicely, even though many people could do the adventures at once, because of their low drop rate. Do the same for GoD weapons. The best weapons in game shouldn't be so much cheaper than the best-in-slot items in other slots.

[Aethn]

Let me first point out that I am in a Qvic+ guild, and do see these drops and how often they drop. With that said:

The common player is NOT getting these drops. They are going to the upper 5-8% of the server only. Its very safe to assume each server has 9500 active accounts. That means about 500-600 accounts per sever MIGHT be able to access these drop locations. That still leaves 8900-9000 other paying customers that sure would love these items.

You cant have it both ways. You cant complain that tradeskills are worthless. Then when SOE finally creates items that have some real value to them, you cant complain that the common player is actually getting some value out of an expansion they wont see more then 25% of.

This arguement is rooted on one of the oldest fears in Everquest, competiton. Most high end guilds dont want to see a trickle effect on loot. They certainly do not want to see the casual player gain even half the power they have as individuals. High end guilds do not want to lose the stranglehold they have over small guilds and casuals on the progression in Everquest.

The only reason most ppl dont like GOD weapons being sold is now Joe Blow Casual might, I point out again MIGHT, have the DPS to actually move forward in POP or heaven forbid GOD, an expansion they paid real money for.

Look at what sector of Everquest is most vocal against new Armor sets being added to LDON merchants or GOD weapons and the associated drop rates. These are usually he top 5-8% of the sever. Guilds that actually let more loot drop rot in a single night then most casual guilds will see drop in a month.

I for one am glad Joe Blow Casual is getting more powerfula and actually enjoying the game now. They are the future of my guild, they are the replacements for members that quit, they are the future of Everquest.

Final thought. Lets look at who is buying these weapons. Its mostly the casual players. Do you think now that the casuals have GOD weapons they will suddenly band together and steamroll the ubers to Tacvi?? No, what is really going to happen is the casual that logs on 2 nights a week for 2 hours each has a decent blade now, a few more HPs and 2 more aug slots. They will still be doing the same thing they did last week, likely farming greens for tradeskills or meeting with a few buddies in BOT for EXP, or the occasional quest mob camp.

Just exactly how is that "Alarming" and harmful to the game?

Drop rates are fine, please dont change them just to satisfy a few peoples knee jerk reactions. The real people paying the bills to keep the lights on at SOE are the Casual and under lvl 50 players in EQ. Dont let the minority dictate the fun for the majority.

[Aneya]

Has it ever occured to you that perhaps making only top line weapons is not the way to approache the problem? There is a wide range of GoD weapons that can be made from those that have no level requirments up to the top line weapons. At each step, the ratio gets slightly better. By selling the full range you can sell a weapon to the same person at every level of their progression. If you are crafty enougth, you can even offer a trade in policy that discounts the next weapon if they turn in their old one.

Consider

Velium Inlaid Cestus 16/22 require lvl 50
vs
Waning Light Katar 16/22 require lvl 55

I bet you can sell Velium Inlaid Cestus for as much as Waning Light Katar simply because it has a lower require lvl.

[ragnarz]

/shrug

I make MASSIVE amounts of weapons and sell em CHEAP

in the world where there is no droppable gear to sell and we dont get spell rune drops that can be MQed sold, it is how we make money for the DOT fund.

I think its great that anyone can spend 10k and get what is ostensibly one of the best droppable weapons in game. 2 aug slots and decent hp/resists. I have even been accused of flooding the market. I think its great for the server and people who want to curtail supply to inflate the price are just being selfish.

[tindiyen]

What happens in a month when the best weapon in the game cost 3k? or in 2 months when its 1k? Then the market for every other item below that simply doesnt exsist. Im the guildbanker for an EP/ GoD guild and I assure the influx of the shimmering ore/nihilite is WAY higher than the rare EP armor drops and is consumed at a much lower rate. PoAir armor which probably has the best component drop rate produces about 1 peice of armor per raid where as GoD smithing produces 3-4 weapons in that same raid time. Add to that there is at best 2 weapon slots and about 7 armor slots you can easily see the drop rate is entirely too high.

Tindiyen Darkwood
Empyreal

[Twistagain]

you can easily see the drop rate is entirely too high.

Actually, I disagree. All you can easily see is that the drop rate is higher than the elemental drop rate. This could VERY easily be used to show that the elemental drop rate is "entirely too low."

[Aneya]

What happens in a month when the best weapon in the game cost 3k? or in 2 months when its 1k? Then the market for every other item below that simply doesnt exsist.

Um you seem to fail to realize that these weapons have a required level of 60. Therefore anyone bellow 60 can't use em. So there will still be a market for inferior items that DON'T have a required level. Besides, these aren't the best weapons in the game, far from it.

edit: removed snippy comment. Don't take this to the level of personal attacks, even mildly. ~Lothay