Always agree on a price first

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Sanna
http://www.sannask.com/eq/guide_for_...ng_traders.txt

Just a short little thing I whipped up, feel free to edit if desired, Krazick. Or ditch entirely. ^_^

You advocate being polite, then use PST in your sample auctions.

/sigh

[Sanna]

Heh! Good point. Totally escaped my notice.


I guess there's some line of distinction in my head between ... how to say... abbreviations done due to laziness (plz, thx), and the 'socially acceptable' space conservation ones. I guess that in my mind, 'WTB', 'WTS', 'PST', and related ones fall into the same category that 'Inc' (incorporated, not incoming ^_^), '&', ' 'n ' (Jones 'n Sons), 'etc', 'ASAP', 'RSVP' do in real life.


However, now that you point that out, I realize that was a bit of an assumption on my part. Perhaps I should figure out how to look into how many consider those EQ abbreviations as impolite speech, and how many just accept them as socially acceptable time- and space-savers.



And yes, the "Conducting Custom Transaction" is rather short 'n choppy... I realized that I hadn't looked into this thread in a couple days. I should go back and rework that. Will note when new version is posted.


-- Sanna
who, the first time she wrote an invitation as a child, wrote it 'Aress Veepee', much to the amusement of her mother.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Sanna
I guess there's some line of distinction in my head between ... how to say... abbreviations done due to laziness (plz, thx), and the 'socially acceptable' space conservation ones. I guess that in my mind, 'WTB', 'WTS', 'PST', and related ones fall into the same category that 'Inc' (incorporated, not incoming ^_^), '&', ' 'n ' (Jones 'n Sons), 'etc', 'ASAP', 'RSVP' do in real life.

I find PST moronic - it adds nothing to the statement. WTB, WTS, useful. PST, not useful. I mean (1) has anyone ever refused KEI when they were answered in OOC instead of a tell? (2) how do you expect me to communicate? smoke signals?

I'm not alone in this.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by kiztent
I find PST moronic - it adds nothing to the statement. WTB, WTS, useful. PST, not useful. I mean (1) has anyone ever refused KEI when they were answered in OOC instead of a tell? (2) how do you expect me to communicate? smoke signals?

I'm not alone in this.

I agree.

This is not directed at Sanna, this is just a side rant that I go off on sometimes, to the people who I rant to in game.

PST , to me, is presumptious, and un-neccessary.

Tells are the normal, assumed method of communication between individuals. When I shout "I am looking for Tufts of Dire Wolf Fur, and I'm paying 3 copper each", is it expected that I should include my email address? Are people sitting there, concentrating on their screen, hoping I can telepathically pick up their message?


Now assume someone desperately wants something, and says "Buying Water Flask, 100000000p, PST", and I don't want to send them a tell. If I have my tells filtered, or I have something against sending another tell. Do they want the item any less if I respond in Shout or OOC? If you want something badly enough to shout to the zone, I think limiting the way that an interested party should contact you is presumptious and annoying.

And don't even get me started on people who tack on an lol or two to every statement.


[/derailment]
Noishpa "lol wtb kei pst lol" Taltos

[Sir CromBattleAxe]

Personally I play it short and sweet.

" Keep in mind on EMarr I have a reputation as a cranky bastard and heres why "

Not a guildie of mine heres the rules.

5k a sheet per item.

I dont do combines

I dont do sub combines

I dont discuss my priceing

Dont like it? Work on your smithing and do it your self.

All too often people try to drag you into a pointless argument about how they should get a special exception to the basic rules as I see them.

1. I should not have to tell you the stats of the item you want to buy.
2. I should never be asked to tell them what ingrediants they need to gather for sub combines.
3. I should not have to chat with you for 30 minutes to agree on a time place price items or how many of what I have in stock.
4. This is a game I play for fun tradeskills are part of what make the game fun for me. If you make dealing with customers for my tradeskill items unfun then you can type all you want /ignore works fine on my end.

Of course for guildies I go out of my way to make sure they have every tradeskill upgrade I can afford to make them. No charge no discussion want to pay me back I always need blocks of vellium and leather padding and drops of mercury.

Useing these basic rules the game is much more enjoyable and far less stressful.

[Kahmon]

Originally posted by kiztent
I find PST moronic - it adds nothing to the statement. WTB, WTS, useful. PST, not useful. I mean (1) has anyone ever refused KEI when they were answered in OOC instead of a tell? (2) how do you expect me to communicate? smoke signals?

I'm not alone in this.

The reason for PST is that there are too many jack @$$es making stupid comments in any zone worth advertising in. If you want someones attention then send them a tell. Most of the time I ignore OOC and AUC other then the links. If someone doesn't like your price and wants to haggle a little, do you want to haggle in OOC or /tell ?

Try it. Go into Nexus or the Bazaar or PoK and /AUC something cool without saying a price. Then watch how many people ask "how much" in ooc. It always happens & I usually Ignore them.

[Aanna]

Has anyone ever been asked to equip their GM hammer as proof of mastery?

[JMorgana]

Do you think this is a fair request? I'm of two minds about it. While it definitely heads off situations like Monodon's, I'd feel awkward expecting them to trust me with both the materials and the fee up front. Seems like a tough choice.

I think this is a perfectly fair compromise, providing you invite them to your group so that they can SEE the success/fail message that shows when you're grouped with someone attempting a combine. The biggest variable I can see to this is whether or not the tradeskiller REALLY has the skill level they claim. However, since a lot of the marketable tradeskill stuff is 250-ish, I would think allowing them to inspect you with GM trophy equipped would answer this one.

[Monodon]

PST

~SIGH~

I DO use PST, and let me tell you why. I keep a different chat window for tells. When I'm in the bazaar or PoK and someone shouts out that they want my item etc, I am far more likely to miss it as it scrolls by in a mass of /ooc /shout /auc. I actually turn off shout and ooc in these zones. When someone sends a tell I have it right there in my little tell window. A single line of text. No scrolling. No trying to find a message among the throng of spam.

I write PST because I am giveing specific instructions to those who are interested in purchasing my wares. My little window makes my life easier and reduces confussion and mix ups.

If you don't like my PST ~SHRUG~ don't send a tell.

[Zopharr]

Always Group

Sanna,

Good guide. I would advise, however, that the craftsperson ALWAYS group for combines. As you state, you have nothing to hide by grouping - and the person has no (honest) way that they can claim that a craftsperson made the item and is keeping it.

I always let people know not only my skill, but what the "odds" are - i.e., an *average* of three attempts per piece on cultural, but I also tell them about the two times it has taken me 8 tries to make an item. I.e., "odds" are exactly that - odds/percentages. Not a guarantee.

About the ethics of keeping the resulting product if I had an agreement with someone to combine items with a "per success" basis and that person then decides he wants to have the product without paying the (previously agreed upon) fee: I figure that I entered into a verbal contract. If that person then decides to breach the contract, I have no further obligations to them (to include giving them back materials).

I can't unmake the product, and I have already invested time in the transaction based on the verbal obligation which they freely entered into (and actively sought out, since I don't advertise). If they want to try and stiff me, fine - they can buy it off my bazaar mule. If they want to complain, fine - a GM can look at the logs. I'm confident of the result.

[Shere Khaan]

Re: PST

Originally posted by Monodon
When I'm in the bazaar or PoK and someone shouts out that they want my item etc, I am far more likely to miss it as it scrolls by in a mass of /ooc /shout /auc.

If they are shouting, ooc'ing or auctioning they want to buy something of yours then they are not serious about the transaction.

I can't imagine anyone who is really interested in buying something will actually not send you a tell when you don't respond in public channels.

Therefore PST is still redundant anyway you look at it (and somewhat insulting)

Shere Khaan

[Drukin]

I guess I have the dissenting view...

I tend to use my own components a fair bit. I had a person once say that they were trying to save for a Crimson Darkscale BP but it was slow going for them. I decided to make it using my own components and just give it to them, without charge. I ended up having a horrible run and had 6 failures. 21 sheets and 7 tempers gone to make a single BP, but I did make it and gave it to the person. It of course made their day and that in turn made mine.

I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I have enough platinum to buy most of the things that I want. I usually peak out around 200k tops, and hit lows of 5k or so occasionally. But it all evens out.

Without getting into the whole <insert website that sells platinum> thing, EQ platinum is worth nothing. A year, or two years, or five years from now, when we've all quit playing, how much platinum you have will be completely pointless. If I can make the trade of a few thousand platinum to make the game that much more enjoyable for someone else, I do it - as long as it's not imposing upon my own enjoyment of the game.

I'd guess that I've probably made about 200-300 sheets worth of combines using my own materials. My current selling price is 4k per sheet, premade. I could most likely have over a million platinum right now if I hadn't of done it, but ya know... I'd gladly trade that million platinum again for the enjoyment that I've received from making others happy. That's just me though, to each their own.

/shrug

[Monodon]

THis post has been Hijacked... PST

K, I think this thread has been hijacked with the PST debate (I'm guilty too). It really has nothing to do with the original post or intent of the thread. It's one of those issues that we basically need to agree to disagree on. I won't change my ways any time soon, nor do I suspect that you will. If you are insulted by my PST, ~SHRUG~ it's just a game.

Ayways, the original post was to gain opinions and information on how to conduct combine transactions at the time of the transaction.

There are a large numbr of different views on this.

1) If somone special orders something tobe made with my materials I charge full price. No deals for a full set. I may lose some customers to this, but I have also lost money because of a bad run with the RNG. I price my stuff according to market value for materials and expected failure rate.

2) If someone asks for a combine with their materials I charge 20% of the market value upon success. I make sure that an agreement is struck BEFORE receivign the materials and doing the combine.

3) I don't expect payment prior to the combine. I have the final item. If I put it in the trade window and they don't put up the agreed amount (some have tried to not pay at all) then I don't give them the item. Fair? I think so. If I have a store and somone wants something. THey don't like the price so they just take it. That is called STEALING. If I take my TV to be repaired and the the guy behind the counter... '"Hmmm, I'm just not going ot pay.. okay?" They would kick me out. I realize that I do have something of theirs since they paid for materials, but I will NOT renegotiate after the original bargain has been struck. I honor my agreements and I expect that others do the same. I will hold on to the item until the person comes up with the cash. As I stated I held on to a bracer as collateral for a deal gone sour. The guy threatedned to get a GM, but when I told him that I woudl be happy to show the GM the log of our deal he backed down. I would have been very interested in what a GM would have said or done. On a PVP server this might be tempting fate since they could just get some friends together and role you every time you stepped outside.

4) I make sure that they KNOW my smithing LVL and that they UNDERSTAND that the risk is theirs. I give the 50 pct or greater failure on heraldic items speach. And generally have no problems.
More often than not the customer walks away happy that they got their item fo a little less than if they had bought it premade and a littel better understanding as to why tradeskilled items cost the prices that they do. At times I will have a bad run in with the RNG and the customer will spend more money than if they had bought in the bazaar. THey are never happy about it, but they definitely walk away with a better understanding of prices. At times I take a loss on special order items that I am makeing with my own ingredients. I once took an order from someone for fierce vambs. I made the vambs and linked it only to find out that they mad a mistake and wanted paldrons. So I set the vambs in my bank and set about makeing the paldrons. I had waht was likely my worst run in with the RNG. It took me six attempts to make the **** things. On my server that is a material cost of about 12 k. The deal was for 8k, which is the going rate for 2 ring items on my server (CT). I did honor the agreement and took the 4k hit (hell I would never be able to sell them for 112 k). I did make sure that I let him know the cost of manufacture. Not to get more money, but to give him a better understanding of why we prce the way we do.

The bottome line is I feel no need to take payment ahead of time. I honor my agreements and expect the same of others. In the end I have the item that they want. If they choose to play games and try to avoid payment, I will keep the item until they honor their end of the bargain. This isn't extortion, it's business. Somone does not get something for nothing, nor are prices renegotiable AFTER the work is done.

~Takes a deep breath~

[Sanna]

Yes, I'm good at hijacking threads. /sad. /apology. But since it is already known that this is taking place here, I don't suppose I can warrent starting yet another thread?



The more i think about this response, the more i realize that, for some reason or another, i am falling into the Severe Minority (tm) cagetory. : \



PST --

My friend down the hall plays on the server next door, and is trying to organize an item/plat transfer so he can give me something for my birthday last week. ^_^. So sweet of him. So he has me monitoring my server's trade channel, and periodically dropping a line about the desired transaction. It's a lot shorter to be able to say '[message here] PST vallon.[charname]' than 'if interested, please sent a tell to vallon.[charname]'. Less on screen to have to process.

Personally, I never saw it as 'insulting', tho I do agree with the redundancy label. However, redundancy is generally good. ^_^. And yes, sometimes people will ask in /ooc how much, or what have you, because it's shorter. And, if you are in pok and advertising an item/service without a price, /ooc how much also prompts you to reply in /ooc, thus educating the whole zone. In a sense, you 'should' have said your price to the zone as a whole in the first place, and since you did not, you need a nudging to do so.

Also, 'PST' can be seen as that final reminder of 'who is in charge here'. IE, the Seller has the item/service, and it is the Customer's half of the bargan to come TO the Seller. "WTS smithing service, 250 skill, PST." I have what you want, so you come to me.



Grouping with Customer --

A very good idea, and wherever possible I do recommend it as common courtesy. But I play on Sullon, and since Gnomes can be Evil and Gnomes can be Neut and Gnomes CANNOT be Good (/sad /sad /sad!), if I want a Tinkering combine, I just have to hope that I have not just hired a Gnome who wants to fudge me over, just because I'm a Goodie and not on his team.

I'm pretty sure that on every other server, you can group with anyone (haven't been to Vallon/Tallon to test), so yes, Sullon is once again proved to be the Really Messed Up And Not To Be Played On By People Wishing To Retain Their Sanity Server. (And for the curious, no, I have not retained my sanity, as evidenced by... just about everything I've ever said here. ^_^!!!!)



End result: There are at least two sides to everything, and now that I know there is another side to the PST thing (I've just never come across people of this viewpoint before), I will insert a corresponding note. Also about the grouping thing, that can be edited around to fit. I have not actually looked at this since I first posted it (uni = teh debil), but it's good to be reminded I need to do so.



thanks all very kindly.
-- sanna

[Aanna]

I didn't realize that there was ever a problem grouping while doing combines!

Is this an issue on any servers other than Sullon? Will be a nice thing to add to the guide

-Aanna