Always agree on a price first

[Aanna]

First and foremost, I am a trusting soul who would much rather work on a donation system than to set definite prices on things, but I'm finding that working like this creates more hard feelings than just being up front and working out exact prices and costs before hand.

Secondly, I would really welcome constructive feedback about how this type of situation should be handled.

My story --

A person wanted 2 pieces of Dark Prince armor made and asked how much I would charge. Having recently felt a bit jipped for being given 400pp for a successful Hurricane Plate BP combine, I said I would charge 500pp per successful just-click-combine. A few hours later she had all the subcombines ready, so I met her at the forge, and she handed me *precisely enough for a 7 piece set of DP armor -- enough for 1 try for each piece. She gave me an priority list for which pieces she wanted most, and I began. Well, 2 successes and then 3 failed breastplates ate up all the ingredients, but she wanted to press on. At this point I was rebuying necessary molds myself. She gave me some odds and ends, and I succeeded on the breastplate... but she had 4 more items she wanted yet. So we agreed that I would use items from my own bank.

This was my fatal error. We did *not discuss how I would count what I was using of my own. We did not discuss how much I would be reimbursed. She seemed nice and was a fellow smith (skill 188), so I figured she would know what things cost and reimburse me fairly.

Well, 8 blue diamonds (I failed one celestial temper), 7 folded velium sheets, 3 sapphires and 3 of my shadow tempers went into completing her set. This is not to mention about 10 molds I'd purchased, nor the time I put in on the subcombines. Here is how much I think I spent on her (extremely conservative prices for Druzzil):

8 blue diamonds @ 350pp = 2800pp
7 folded velium sheets @ 100pp = 700pp
3 sapphires @ 110pp = 330pp
3 shadow tempers @ 100pp = 300pp
10+molds @ 15pp = 150pp
Grand Total = 4280pp

This isn't counting purified water, celestial essences, coldain velium tempers, and all the little things that go into the subcombines. I'm guessing at a price for the tempers, but essence of shadows sell for 100pp each on Druzzil, so could charge up to 210pp each. Blue diamonds for 350pp are rare!

At any rate, I was just about to suggest 4k even to recompense my supplies when she pops 3500pp into my trade window and says, "500pp each for 7 combines, right?"

I reminded her that I was using my own components, and listed a few. She replied that she had given me 15 velium sheets at the beginning (I think she was confusing the original folded infused adamantite that she had given me). She was clearly annoyed by the whole thing. When she offered me 5k for everything I just numbly agreed.

The worst thing about all this is that both of us clearly felt "had."

Next time I will *not* use my own ingredients. If this ever happens again I will stop, complete the transaction, and if the person wants more they can contact me when they have the subcombines done again.

What do you all think?

-Aanna -- 250 brewer
-Kara -- 250 smith
Druzzil Ro

[Krazick]

Well from my reading of your story... is First... when done using the provided components... get PAID for them. PERIOD.

Get that cleared BEFORE using your own inventory supplies.

THEN discuss further combines, and come up with a new price. See if the person is willing to do the sub-combines... and such.

When you mix two different sources of supplies for a deal, you run into confusing sitatuations.

[Barli]

Concerning Blue Diamonds

I've noticed that Blue Diamonds are becoming more and more commonplace. On the Kane Bayle server - the market is flooded with them and you can usually find them selling as low as 275pp, sometimes lower, just above what vendors will pay you for them.

I find them all the time now on vendors in the PoK. At first I thought that I could make some money buying them off vendors and selling them in the bazaar. Well, no such luck. When the market bottoms out - it may be a good time to buy them all up and the prices will start going back up.

But - since Blue Diamonds seem to drop off so may mobs in the Planes now - they aren't worth as much.

[Aanna]

I wish this were the case on Druzzil! The gem market in general is really rather weird -- currently there is 1 blue diamond for 350pp, several for 375pp and most in the 400-500 range. With prices like this in the Bazaar, blue diamonds just don't appear on npc merchants (believe me, I've tried).

Heck, Jacinths have been selling for 600-900pp lately

Just different server economies I suppose.

[Sanna]

I agree with krazick. Take things slowly, and in steps. If she hands you precice amounts of materials, and you're being paid per successful combine... I would even get my payment PER succesful combine. IE, when you get the first success, turn to her and trade it for 500p. Second success, trade it for 500p.

Delineate (sp?) things, box them out, straighten them out, whatever it takes that there is no possible room for confusion anywhere.



And unless you are bored, or payment is worked out IN ADVANCE, do not do subcombines for someone else. Not CEs, not CVTs, and make her go buy her own molds.


/hug

bad experiences happen, and they suck large basilisk eggs. You seem like a nice person, but I have learned that even other nice people will try to take advantage of nice people like you.

Not that I'm advising being mean, just... be strict. Like a brick wall. All ordered a 90-degree-right-angles. No error.


/comfort

-- sanna

[Aanna]

Payment per combine is such a good idea! Like you said, not nasty -- just strict and orderly.

I'm really starting to think it's best for both parties.

Thank you

[Zacatac]

I keep all my own supplies in the bank. I'll grab the hammer and file I need, everything else must come from them if I'm doing some sort of "pay you for the combine, I have all the ingredients" type of sale.

Soon as they run out of anything, I politely hand them back whatever is left over and tell them we are done for now.

If they want to use my supplies, they can buy the item already made at full price from me anytime.

[Zopharr]

I still do virtually all armor made to order, doing combines (free) for guildies. [I'm lucky in that I GM'd smithing awhile ago, my three characters are pretty well outfitted, and cash isn't to big a n issue. ] Running about to make 500pp for a successful combine - no, I value my time too much for that. (I think I was charging 2k a sheet last time I did combines.)

And if the smith is providing the materials, it isn't combines - it's essentially the smith selling a piece of armor made to order. With the hassles of getting materials, in my opinion it's not worth selling someone materials at the plat cost it takes me to get them, and then charging only the combine cost when I make something out of them.

If they want **combines,** they bring the materials. They'll still save some money over custom ordered, and I'll save the time running to CC looking for velium on vendors and the like. If they don't want to bring the materials, they can pay made-to-order prices and re-imburse me for my running about getting tempers, etc..

[Monodon]

Aye,

I follow the same rules.
If they run out of supplies then we are done until they get more.
If we use my stuff then they pay full price. A lot of time goes into camping the bazaar for ingredients and I expect payment for my time.


I once had a situation in which somone gave me all the ingredients. We had agreed on a set price, though I don't recall exactly what the price was now. WHen I finished the combines and put the items in the trade window they hit trade without putting up the cash. When I didn't hit trade they got mad and told me to hit trade. I politely said that we had agreed on a price per successful combine and that they had to put the cashin the trade window. They proceeded to call me a number of colorful names. I simply hit cancel and told them that if they wished to get the items they needed to pay the agreed price. When they threatened to report me I told them "Go ahead, I have our full conversation with our agreement logged and would love to hand it over to the GM."

As it turns out they used the last of their pp to by the materials (including selling some of their gear). They owed me about 4k for the combines so I ended up giving them everything but a heraldic bracer. They were pretty pissed of saying that the bracer was worth more than the fee, but I told them that the bracer would be in trader at the market price. If they cam up witht he fee I would be more than willing to hand it over for the original price.

This is a case of somone trying to take advantage of me. Did it tick me off? You bet.
Would I work for that individual again? Of course not.

They never did return for the bracer. Nor did they get any of the smiths I know to make the remaining peices for them (yes, I did spread word throughout the smithing community). They may have paid full price at some point.

I do have to say that I have had more good experiences than bad though. I owe a great big thankyou to one of my early customers. We were doing a straight transaction of goods for cash. I believe it was a fierce heraldic BP, Greaves and Vambs. Being the trader novice that I was I hit trade before they put up the cash. They hit trade and promptly (and conveniently went LD). I cursed like I've never cursed before and went back into trader mode. A few minutes later I received a message from the same individual and a /poke. THe message read "See how easy it is to get ripped off. In the future DO NOT hit trade until the other party has their stuff up as well!" They then handed me the cash. This was almost a hard lesson and was definitely one that I will never forget.

There are decent people out there, but there are also those that want somethign for nothing. The trick is to figure out which is which before it's too late. Don't be a mark.

[Veril]

For what she supplied you do what you agreed, that was what, 4 successes total. Should have been 2K - the 5K per success you agreed on.

For the rest of it you used your components, if you were unhappy with the money offered then you should have kept the others and sold them at market price.

If she provided part components for the others then pay her a fair market price for those components that she provided.

[TheGiantOne]

Okay being a GM smith for quite a while I can give you some advice on whatnot to do and what to do to avoid anything like this in the future.

Rule 1. NEVER EVER GIVE BACK ANY FINAL COMBINES TO ANY CUSTOMER WITHOUT RECEIVING PAYMENT OF SOME TYPE AND BEFORE YOU START ANY JOB MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A SOLID AGREEMENT OF PLAT AND/OR ITEMS THEY ARE GIVING YOU AT THE END WHEN YOU MAKE THE EXCHANGE WITH THEM AFTER FINAL COMBINE. NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE.

Rule 2. If you are charging per EACH SUCCESSFUL combine I do the following and its worked out great for me.

Using Helanic Armor as an example.
1 ring combine - 1k (boots, bracer, bracer, collar, visor)
2 ring combine - 1.5k (gauntlets, girdle, helm, pauldrons, arms)
3 ring combine - 2k (breastplate, cloak, greaves)

I also state to the person that there is always a chance of failure so they should bring additional materials for the final combines. I recommend to the person they bring twice the materials needed on a safety margin to assure a complete set. If I don't use the additional materials I return them to the person I am making the armor for or I offer to buy the unused materials back from the person as I can make other pieces of armor for other customers so its not a loss either way.

Now some of you will say I overcharge for my combines but lets look at two things that keep the market in any tradeskill going.

Supply and Demand

Okay if I charge too little for combines in any skill I could hurt the value of the individual pieces of armor being sold by my fellow GM smiths.

Lets take an example of me making a piece and me combining same piece for someone. ( A BP)

Helanic Tundra Breastplate ***Ratio Success 50%***

I make one costs would be 475 per ring per attempt x 3 = 1425
Then take 1425 x 2 (ratio is 50%) = 2850pp

Okay now costs to do a combine I charge for same bp (only on a successful combine) 2k.

See I really haven't hurt the market for myself or other GM smiths and I have offered a fair charge for my services.

I do the same in Fletching, Brewing, Pottery it always depends on what the final item will be is how you base your cost.

You certainly don't want to go around charging only 1k for a combine for someone for a Ceramic Totem of Rathe that sells for over 50k. In no time at all it would literally upset the market for those other GM potters making those totems. So in that instance if totem was selling for 50k don't feel afraid to charge 5k for the successful combine.

But never ever supply your own materials for someone elses combines.

Sometimes I will do a special with what we call resellers for Tae ew Shields. Lets say the market price on them is 4500pp but a reseller wants to be able to compete in that market. He/She will come to me and say I need 10 Tew Ew Shields. I am willing to pay you 3500pp each. I'll make them for the person as its not hurting the market because I have seen those shields a few times as low as 3k also.

So its just plain common sense to spend a few minutes with anyone who wants something made for them.

Okay here is another little trick you can avoid getting drawn into as it concerns taking items in trade for something you have made as a GM in a tradeskill.

I take in trades all the time but I have one golden rule I stick to all the time.

Know the market prices on ANY item you take in trade. Then cut it in half if its in exchange for an item you have made as a GM. You ask whats the reason on this? Simple if you have a hard time selling the item at market price you can drop the price a little bit and sell the item faster and not worry about whether you got screwed on the trade you made earlier or not. The worst scenario is that you might have to sell the item for 30% off whatever market is but you still make a 20% profit .

Lets take a look at an example:
Item: You made as a GM worth 50k
Person offers you a 50k item (market value) in exchange.
Counter Offer: Accept the 50k item and 25k in plat.

Number 1 if they were willing to trade their item away they have no use for it anyway.
Number 2 you have at least covered the cost of your materials in plat to make that 50k item. (25k)
Number 3 you can put that 50k item up for sale in auction and sell it on a fast sale for 35k if you wish.

The ending result: You have actually sold your 50k crafted item for 60k. Not Bad. You are happy and so is the person who wanted your GM crafted item.

Anyway hope that helps,

[Aethn]

This is how I handle combine sales:

If the person has all the bits for the final combine and all I need to do is hit combine, then I require them to pass all the bits to me AND payment per combine, prior to my attempts. If they cant agree to this, they can find a new smith.

Too many times I have been ripped off by dishonest people, it will never happen again.

If they wish me to use my own components for some of the combines, we agree on a price per component and they pay FIRST the ammount we agree upon, then I make the attempts.

Rule Number 1 in Everquest Tradeskilling : Everyones a thief, if they turn out not to be a thief, its a pleasant suprise. If you always expect the worst then you will not allow yourself to be cheated.

Rule Number 2: Never , never, never, ever, make a combine or sell a piece until payment is securely stored in you inventory. There are too many people using Alts and shared bank space now to rip you off.

Rule Number 3: Never, never, never, ever make a transaction with a lvl 1 character. Level 1 chars are disposable. If the bits they hand you or hte money the pass you is somehow stole or duped, SOE can track it to you EVERY TIME. Then you get banned, not the lvl 1 character.

Follow those rules and you will never get cheated again, ever.

[Zeralenn]

Here is how I handle such things with my halfling tailor, specifically making leatherfoot haversacks:

1. Payment up front before I begin combining. (This varies; I don't charge guildies or members of allied guilds for combines -- just lost materials as listed below). I do charge for items used in the combines if they do not provide them themselves, such as acorn oil or platinum threads.

2. People can bring me all the materials for a combine. If they bring me only JUST enough for one combine, with all subcombines with no failures, I give them the standard speech: "I will group with you so you can see all subcombines I need to make prior to making the bag. I have items in stock to replace anything that I fail by accident, but you will be expected to pay for any replacement items if you wish me to continue trying to make the bag." Then I give them the price list for replacement items. If they bring me extra stuff, extras will be returned to them. I may offer to buy tufts of dire wolf fur off them for 10pp each, but I don't buy back other items generally.

In the case of a leatherfoot haversack, if the failure occurs in the combines of the dire wolf fur, I give them the option of getting a leatherfoot backpack instead.

3. If by some miracle I succeed all the subcombines (I have before) but fail the final product, my message is also clear: you bear all risk and responsibility for lost items. You are taking a RISK by bringing me these items to combine rather than simply buying a finished bag. They are getting a significant platinum discount by doing so, so there must be attendent risk. Anyone who hands me stuff for one combine and expects that I will make it with absolutely no failures is kidding themselves and asking ME to bear that responsibility is unreasonable.

So to review:

1. Get the money up front.

2. Charge a predetermined rate for replacement subcombine items, and don't give the finished product until those items are paid for.

3. Keep repeating that failures are their risk and not yours.

You are doing a favor by doing combines with provided items.

...Zera

[Gryfalia]

I charge X amount to just try the combine (which means they hand me the supplies and X amount). Then, if I make the item, they pay me the 'Y' amount (aka the rest of it) when I hand them the item.

Has worked well for me.

Who was this on DRo so I know who to avoid?

Gryfalia
65 Archon of Brell
Novus Invictus
Druzzil Ro
-----------------------------
225+15% Smith
244+5% Fletcher
244+5% Potter
240+5% Jeweler
221 Brewer
217 Baker
199 Tailor (grumble)

[Aanna]

If the person has all the bits for the final combine and all I need to do is hit combine, then I require them to pass all the bits to me AND payment per combine, prior to my attempts. If they cant agree to this, they can find a new smith.

Do you think this is a fair request? I'm of two minds about it. While it definitely heads off situations like Monodon's, I'd feel awkward expecting them to trust me with both the materials and the fee up front. Seems like a tough choice.

There are so many good ideas in this thread! Do you think it might be helpful to create a "Guide for Beginning Traders" that outlines some of the most important points?

For instance, Zeralenn's

You are taking a RISK by bringing me these items to combine rather than simply buying a finished bag. They are getting a significant platinum discount by doing so, so there must be attendent risk.

That's something that's often occurred to me, and I've felt should be obvious to the buyer. But it's not.

It might be nice for beginning traders to have something to guide them and help them know what to say to complete a combine-sale as safely as possible, and not learn the hard way like we have. What do you think?

-Aanna