Always agree on a price first

[Aanna]

Gryfalia, you answered my concern as I was asking it! Partial payment upfront for the combine seems very fair to me.

As for who it was... I'd really rather not say. I feel it was a misunderstanding and not something intentionally nasty.

[Krazick]

There are so many good ideas in this thread! Do you think it might be helpful to create a "Guide for Beginning Traders" that outlines some of the most important points?

That sounds like a good idea to me. Does anyone want to volunteer to write one up?

If so, I can post it, and get it linked up with little trouble.

[Hobbun]

Originally posted by TheGiantOne

Know the market prices on ANY item you take in trade. Then cut it in half if its in exchange for an item you have made as a GM. You ask whats the reason on this? Simple if you have a hard time selling the item at market price you can drop the price a little bit and sell the item faster and not worry about whether you got screwed on the trade you made earlier or not. The worst scenario is that you might have to sell the item for 30% off whatever market is but you still make a 20% profit .

Lets take a look at an example:
Item: You made as a GM worth 50k
Person offers you a 50k item (market value) in exchange.
Counter Offer: Accept the 50k item and 25k in plat.

Number 1 if they were willing to trade their item away they have no use for it anyway.
Number 2 you have at least covered the cost of your materials in plat to make that 50k item. (25k)
Number 3 you can put that 50k item up for sale in auction and sell it on a fast sale for 35k if you wish.

The ending result: You have actually sold your 50k crafted item for 60k. Not Bad. You are happy and so is the person who wanted your GM crafted item.

[/B]

GiantOne, I do see your point above, but I can see a lot of people not being too happy with it. If the person that is willing to trade the item and they are aware of market value as well, do you really find a lot of people that are willing to give more than a straight up trade? I can see someone going "That isn't a fair trade, why should I give you the item AND 25K?" You can explain the reason why, but I can't see the buyer being too sympathetic on you wanting to have a flexible selling price for the item, if you decide to sell it.

Again, I do see your point, and as a smith, I would prefer that trade as well, I just wonder if you get that many that are willing for that kind of a trade.

Hobbun

[Taraddar]

Originally posted by Hobbun
GiantOne, I do see your point above, but I can see a lot of people not being too happy with it. If the person that is willing to trade the item and they are aware of market value as well, do you really find a lot of people that are willing to give more than a straight up trade? I can see someone going "That isn't a fair trade, why should I give you the item AND 25K?" You can explain the reason why, but I can't see the buyer being too sympathetic on you wanting to have a flexible selling price for the item, if you decide to sell it.

Again, I do see your point, and as a smith, I would prefer that trade as well, I just wonder if you get that many that are willing for that kind of a trade.

Hobbun

My usual response to that is then sell it for that and buy x in cash. Obviously if they want to trade it's because they haven't yet found a buyer for it otherwise they would just be buying with cash.

I've also found that when ever they say it's worth x that usually the highest price they've seen it at and you MIGHT be able to sell it at that if your lucky. Using his numbers I'd figure the 50k item is probably really worth 40k and figure 35K for a quick sell so I'd ask item + 15k for the item.

As far as doing combines goes My rate does vary some. Base is I stick everything in the forge and just hit combine. If I have to do any precombines or run around buying molds etc then my price goes up. Also I will almost never provide components from my own stock. If they want combines they must provide absolutely everything that isn't vendor bought. That includes things like imbued gems too.

As far as payment upfront goes I don't usually ask for that especially in cases of multiple combines. I might if it was only a single combine. If i've got something of thiers and they don't wanna pay I just keep it and sell it.

[Aanna]

Taraddar regarding being paid upfront for combines:

If i've got something of thiers and they don't wanna pay I just keep it and sell it.

How often does this happen to folks? What have you done in this situation? If they've given you the subcombines and you've done the combine and now they refuse to pay... is one justified in keeping the finished product?

Just to play devil's advocate, if they gave you everything and you just hit combine, then you haven't invested any money directly. Does this give you a right to the total value of the finished product?

Has anyone had GM interaction in a situation like this that's been petitioned? I'm curious just in case it would actually help to keep logs of all combine negotiations.

Since I've got this topic in my head anyway, I'd like to take a stab at writing up the guide. I'd like to focus specifically on guidelines for doing combines for strangers. How to do trades in the Bazaar, how to set prices and such is really an entirely different kettle of fish.


-Aanna

[Krazick]

Aanna,

I agree the guide should not include pricing schemes...

As for:

Does this give you a right to the total value of the finished product?

The point is... once the combine is done successfully, the only thing you, as the tradeskiller, has of value to the buyer is the item itself. You can't UNDO the combine. And you certainly are not obligated to pay for the "product" or the "raw materials".

You could... maybe... out of your own stock return the materials... but that is not a good idea.

The reason some folks here have insisted on payment BEFORE doing the combine... is to get around those bothersome folks that don't want to pay for it when you succeed. They simply want the finished product.

Three basic ways it is usually done:

1. Receive Raw Materials, do Combine, upon Success return the product and recieve payment in one transaction.
2. Receive Raw Materials, and base Price (to be paid regardless of success of combine), do Combine, and upon Success return the product and recieve success payment in one transaction.
3. Receive Raw Materials, and Full Payment, do Combine and upon Success return the product recieving no further payment.

Anyway it goes, the Buyer is taking a risk that you won't run off with the materials or the product. The amount of risk the Buyer accepts is based upon how much payment is made prior to the combine.

Note though... "Tools" which are returned regardless of a successful combine should not be considered "Raw Materials". The Tradeskiller should provide them as necessary. They are generally cheap and easily obtained or made if the tradeskiller knows the job.

[drael]

Oh please, a guide would be wonderful. I had pulled quotes from the previous posts and was trying to assemble them in some coherent order form notebook, lol.

Another angle on the situation....
"selling" combines when you aren't a GM

Do you charge anything? Yes, I do get customers so desperate they are willing to risk failures from a non GM.

So far, I have explained my current skill level, grouped with the customer so they see all failures and charged nothing. I offer to click for free (have even done sub combines) but expected them to donate all of the hardest (or most costly) ingredient(s).

Best example I can remember - customer had foraged 3 planar oak branches and wanted to try for a fishing rod. I asked he kick in the blessed dust but had the other supplies in my bank. Two combines later I had a skill up and he had a fishing rod. He let me keep the dust and I handed back the branch. I was happy to get the skill up but really wanted that branch, lol.

Is this area too gray? I'd love to hear what others do
Thanks.

[Gryfalia]

Just because I have the chance to gain a point of skill doesn't make them a charity case..;-) Of course I also make sure they know the item isn't trivial to me and that I can fail. I have often sent people to people I know an item will be trivial to so that they have the best chance to get it made..

Gryfalia

[Zacatac]

Well my pricing might be a bit unique, it goes like this (for cultural amors).

1. You bring me EVERYTHING needed to do the combines
2. I make the 1st item for you
3. I then make a bracer (using your supplies) as my fee (sells for 5k, but it didn't cost the customer that much).
4. If we still have supplies left, I will keep attempting combines for you to keep (limit 5), so the more supplies you bring the better.

I get a bracer for each time I show up. But the buyer gets his item 1st. If I fail his item a couple times, then succeed, then fail a couple bracers and run out of supplies, then I don't collect a fee. But that's only happend once (1 for 3 on BP then 0-2 on bracer).

Why do I have the "limit 5" you may ask? Well I'll tell you. I had a customer show up with enough supplies to make 40 sheets worth of metal and all the temper pieces. He did not do any of the pre-combines either, so I spent several hours doing all of this work. And he ended up with about 12 pieces of armor when we got done (had a good success rate that day), a couple of which he sold for profit later to cover his costs.

So after that little episode, I decided to put a limit on just how much work I'm willing to do. That 1 person took me the entire evening.

[Feleni]

Always Agree on a price first.. and dont be shy about it either.

I have several different trade skills which I often use for others when they have the components. I rarely charged for combining things that they took the time to gather. Then I started having people begging me to do "just one fast combine" whil eI was fighting etc. my final solution was to set prices and make a macro. I had a ready answer in detail for every "simple request". I was loosing time to play for myself. I havent leveled any aa point sin a month and ive been level 57 for almost a year now. Time for moi.

I wish it was eaiser to trust people and just say "yes come on ill help" cause I can. Unfortunately way way too many people feel it is thier god given right to my talents.

Feleni

[Celestya]

I know exactly what you mean Feleni. Too often I've had people act like my skills are there for their personal use. That it is something I worked hard at, and spent many hours and a LOT of plat perfecting, rarely seems to cross their minds. It is quite aggravating.

Now, off that note, I've never been comfortable asking friends for plat or donations for combines. A guildmate brought a new option to light for that situation....I request any friends/guildmates wanting a 'free' combine to provide 2 sets of materials. If I succeed on both, the second one goes to the guild.
I do usually do subcombines, but after reading all of these posts....perhaps I don't have to do this?! It's a nice new concept. hehe.
People have posted what they often charge for smithing and tailoring (which I'm currently working on GM'ing...just waiting for NTCM 2), any suggestions for pottery? (For non-guildmates of course). What about brewing? I Have had 2 people ask me to do the planar blood brew combine this week.
The last set of combines I did, I received 200p for each successful combine. It was planar pottery (250+ triv) combines, and I succeeded on 21/24, so it was a nice little payday in that respect, but was the 200p too low for such a high trivial?
Ironically... I succeed more often on the planar combines (44/51 so far) than I do on non planar (the star ruby encrusted steins for solstice earring for example which have at least a 50% fail rate).
I look forward to reading the quide you are compiling. *huggles* Thank you for all the information!

[Suva]

One thing I have even done is if a friend is nearby not busy and I have a request for an item with a high chance of failure, I have the friend group with us also just as an additional witness. I do this since I was doing a combine and just as I clicked combine, the guy I was doing it for went ld. In that case I did succeed in the combine and he got his item when he came back. That had me thinking though if I had failed, then what? They may not have believed me in the failure.

Anytime I do a combine when I think I might fail I have a little speach about how likly the chance of failure is and such. I've had to include a part now though since my modem has been somewhat unstable that if I happen to LD, I will be right back on since it bumps me to server select almost every time. Just to avoid them panicking I took thier pieces.

I won't charge for friends or guildmembers when I do combines. Some of them insist on some form of donation in any case. When I do combines for people I do not know, I usually go by donations. I also have started doing free combines for people who helped me farm items I needed while mastering all the tradeskills. They helped me gather the items for my tradeskills, and in return I kept a list and they can get a free combine if they bring all the pieces. I am a half elf and can't make any of the cultural armor or much of anything special. I guess mostly because I can't make any of the cultural items that using donations doesn't bother me much. I have also never had anyone but a friend or guildmember ask me to do elemental combines or other higher selling items from PoP.

I've guess I am also lucky in I do not remember anyone having me make them an item then not having any form of payment.

[Sanna]

http://www.sannask.com/eq/guide_for_...ng_traders.txt

Just a short little thing I whipped up, feel free to edit if desired, Krazick. Or ditch entirely. ^_^


Yes, it does the odd line-continuation thing, but save to desktop and open in notepad, it will work.


-- Sanna
comments/improvement suggestions appreciated as always.

[Krazick]

Sanna,

Looks good for a general type of Craftman Guide. The section 'CONDUCTING A CUSTOM TRANSACTION' just begins to touch on the issues brought up by this thread and the ideas presented here.

There could (and should) be a more detailed guide written that expands that section. I will get this posted up shortly.

(Look at Lear a Tradeskill Guide )

Thanks!

[Rhumba]

Had it been me....

I tend to be pretty direct with folks... To my detriment.

At the point you were offered below value, I would have just given them what they had provided parts for at the cost that was quoted to them.

It's not you're job to supply them with parts because of failures, and it's not your job to make them understand. Just back away from the deal at that point, and sell the items in bazzar. If you need to refund some items from your pesonal stock, so be it.

Anyway, thats just me. It's not your fault if they are dense. In many situation you have to understand that there are some folks out there who will intentionally act stupid in trying to get more from you that what was originally agreed to.

I've been in very similar situations, and have just gotten to the point that I realize some people do not understand what is involved in GM'ing a tradeskill. If they are upset they always have the option of raising their own skill.

Anyway, enough for my rant of the day...

Rhumba Kween
250 Ogre Smith on Tunare