Lvl 80 and 71-75 spells

[Eanelder]

Due to the systematic nature of the spell research system, is there any reason why we could not get a jump on the process and figure out the recipes for DoN-TBS spells should be right now? We all know that Dev time is one of the major limiting factors on how much tradeskill work can get implemented, and the time required to come up with the recipes for a couple hundred spells is not trivial. Doing the leg work ahead of time ourselves (that we will end up doing anyhow) might increase our chances of seeing more spells (and more time for other tradeskills to get recipes too).

I actually had the same thought but for the lvl 1 -60 spells. My only concern, if we did create a list, would it be something that Ngreth could easily use, or would he have to end up looking up item numbers anyways?

Maybe if Ngreth specificed a format this would be possible?

[Abazagaroth]

Rk3's are in line with ancients as a raid only type spell that is an enhancement to an existing type of spell as opposed to a completely new spell altogether. Ancient spells don't give you a function that you didn't have before, just an improvement to an already existing function. Of course, rank 2's do that too, but rank 2s are obtainable via group. So an ancient is generally a slightly better spell of an already existing function, which is obtained via raid, which matches what rank 3s are. Quantity is only a by-product of the system and even then, how many people actually have all rank 3 spells? Same question to how many people have all ancients from past expansions?

If Rank3's are researchable, make all ancients researchable. If ancients are not researchable, then leave Rank3's as they are. And for the record, no, I'm not a TSS raider.

Ancients >>>>> Rk. 3 spells.

Most ancients, when current, either had a very large efficiency boost if it was an existing spell (enough that, for example, the ancient shaman cleric heal from OoW is almost the same as the TSS upgrades), or gave an ability that the class didn't have in terms of unlocked spell recast timers. Paladin ancient stuns always gave an additional fast cast stun that could be chained, for example.

Rk. 3s are so uninspired that most have zero interest in trying for them, and explains why so few guilds in solteris are spending phosphenes on them.

I hope something becomes researchable with those papers, I hate having stuff without an ultimate use hanging around =P

[olhoss]

Here is why I am not worried about ancient spells or rank 3....

All of the Ancients that I am missing are nukes that I will never use because I have better. It's kind of neat that someone earned them, and it's a bit like a trophy to have one, but it isn't hurting me that I don't. If the Rank 3 are left unresearchable, it isn't going to hurt me at all if I am going to have something better at 78 anyway.

That said, if the rank 3 are not as "special" as ancients, why not let them be researchable?

[Ngreth Thergn]

I actually had the same thought but for the lvl 1 -60 spells. My only concern, if we did create a list, would it be something that Ngreth could easily use, or would he have to end up looking up item numbers anyways?

Maybe if Ngreth specificed a format this would be possible?

I always appreciate help
I would need a list in order like this:
Paper
Quill
Additive
Thickener
Ink
Ink
Ink
Ink
Ink
Ink

(of course only as many inks as are used)

and then even more ideal, in a code block... and not as easy for you guys.

Star Scream	97819	93515	93539	93548	93587	-1	-1	-1	-1	-1
Star Strike	97819	93515	93537	93545	93587	-1	-1	-1	-1	-1
Elemental Simulacrum	97819	93515	93542	93619	93587	93574	-1	-1	-1	-1
Circle of Alendar	97819	93514	93542	93554	93587	-1	-1	-1	-1	-1
Hastening of Salik	97819	93514	93542	93554	93567	93568	93578	93577	93578	-1
Voice of Clairvoyance	97819	93514	93542	93554	93574	93574	93570	93569	-1	-1
True Name	97819	93514	93539	93555	93581	-1	-1	-1	-1	-1
Sha's Legacy	97819	93521	93539	93555	93580	93563	-1	-1	-1	-1
Spirit of Rashara	97819	93521	93542	93557	93583	-1	-1	-1	-1	-1
Ferocity of Irionu	97819	93521	93542	93553	93566	93578	93564	-1	-1	-1
Festering Malady	97819	93521	93541	93547	93563	93587	-1	-1	-1	-1

Either way will save me time... with the second saving me the most... but I would still want to see a "named" list so I can more easily confirm that it looks OK.
that is a tab delimited list. I can do it with comma delimited and reasonably easily convert it to tab delimited

And now you have a closer idea of what a recipe looks like in data (though there is much more info that I cut out)

[KyrosKrane]

I set up a public shared spreadsheet here:

http://www.editgrid.com/user/kyroskr..._Spell_Recipes

Anyone can view or edit it. If you insert recipes into that, Ngreth can view them and easily export it in the format he needs.

I'm trying to find a way to make it auto-find an item ID if you type a name.

[Gaell Stormracer]

Could the papers, quill, thickeners and inks perhaps be set as an enumerated type? So that we just select from a drop-down list? It would then be easy to map to the item IDs.

EDIT: I guess I'm thinking of a web-based form -- still, that should be easier?

[KyrosKrane]

EditGrid does have a way to pull data from a remote source. I'm trying to map it to EQItems or something, so that when you type in an item name, it does a dynamic lookup to pull the item ID.

I don't know if it supports enumerated values, but I'll check on that later today.

[Gaell Stormracer]

Also, the "paper" part is already a systematic level-determinator, so that doesn't need to be done here.

[KyrosKrane]

It doesn't look like I can get a dynamic lookup of item ID's off the EQItems site, but I'm working on another trick.

It also looks like enumerated types won't work. Lots of typing inc. =(

[Eanelder]

Actually, once i made my suggestion, I started working on a web application that would allow anyone to "build" a spell recipe and add it to a database.

I've already got a listing of all the components and their Item Ids, and quite a few of the recipes. I aslo plan of having a few features in there.

Just give me untill tuesday, and hopefully Ill be able to put up a link.

[KyrosKrane]

There we go, an even better solution. =)

[gggrant]

Reference the whole Ancient not equivalent to Rank III spells:

I have a tendency to agree that Ancient spells are not the equivalent to Rank III spells. Having said that though, I do not believe they should be researchable for a couple of reasons.

First would be the sheer complexity involved. We have five grades of paper: Rough Paper, Paper, Fine Paper, Runic Paper and Fine Runic Paper. Ngreth could come up with somthing like adding paper coatings that would allow for researching different ranks of spells. An example would be clay coatings and infused clay coatings. That way we could have the ability to make Rank I, Rank II and Rank III spells. As an example Fine Runic Paper would be used to make Rank I level 75 spells, Clay Coated Fine Runic Paper would be used to make Rank II level 75 spells and Infused Clay Coated Fine Runic Paper the Rank III spells.

Second is while Rank III's may not be of the calibre of Ancients they are raid dropped. Arguing that they should be researchable would be like a smith or tailor arguing that Ashengate/Frostcrypt raid armor and weapons should be tradeskillable. So in order to maintain the integrety of raid drop items any Rank III spell scroll that is player created would have to be NO TRADE and involve a NO TRADE raid drop. This means some method would be required for non-researcher spell casters to make a final combine similar to an AAAA combine (although I would hope that it wouldn't be that complex).

Ngreth has enough on his plate as it is. We don't need to make his life more complex. If we are going to be able to research TSS spells, Rank II spells will be good enough.

[Eanelder]

First would be the sheer complexity involved. We have five grades of paper: Rough Paper, Paper, Fine Paper, Runic Paper and Fine Runic Paper. Ngreth could come up with somthing like adding paper coatings that would allow for researching different ranks of spells.

Or, as stated above, there is 1 addtionial item which differentiates between RK 2 and 3 spells. Sort of like how the Drying Powder works now for lvl 65 spells. That item can be super rare (like Discordant Scoriae is / was maybe?) Simpe enough solution.

So in order to maintain the integrety of raid drop items any Rank III spell scroll that is player created would have to be NO TRADE and involve a NO TRADE raid drop. This means some method would be required for non-researcher spell casters to make a final combine similar to an AAAA combine (although I would hope that it wouldn't be that complex).

Or the "antiqued" spells could lose their no drop tag, much like the level 69/70 spells in OoW lost theirs.

------------------------

The problem I see with research in the future if RK 3's arent made researchable is that it "Research" itself will lose any advantage it currently has. Lvl 71-75 RK1's are easily available off vendors, in the next expansion i think its safe to assume lvl 76-80 RK1s will also be available off vendors.

So someone buying a lvl 71-75 Rk1 spell has the choice, gain 5 levels and buy the next generation spell, or spend some plat on a rk2 spell (researched or one fo the many in the baz from mob drops). Personally ... i would hold out for the 5 levels, and i think most would do the same (the difference between rk1 and 2 are just not that great).

Now, if it was RK 3 spells ... and that included spells that werent available through even rune turn ins, then thats a different story... a market may exist. Perhaps it is to early in the next expansion.... but with the level increase I think its the most appropriate time, specially with expansions only coming out once a year now.

[Gaell Stormracer]

Or the "antiqued" spells could have their lose their no drop tag, much like the level 69/70 spells in OoW lost theirs.

Well, the regular 69/70 spells did, the Ancients and the quested spells didn't - and Rank 3 is the Ancient equivalent.

[Eanelder]

Well, the regular 69/70 spells did, the Ancients and the quested spells didn't - and Rank 3 is the Ancient equivalent.

I think thats also in question. In my eyes, RK3 is NOT Ancient equivalent.