When will RK. II spell be researchable?

[Eanelder]

In the end... RK2 and RK3 just are not worth much of anything. Mostly nothing more than a minimal upgrade that getting further encourages your feelings of wholeness than actually giving you a meaty upgrade.

/agree ... which is why I assumed the jump should just be made to Rk III reserachable. I dont really equate Rk III spells with ancients, thats for sure.

Not to mention the spells have been most desired through research in the past have been "raid" type spells GoD Runes, and Greater / Glowing. Personally I think not making Rk III spells researchable would be a shame.

(again I would suggest a new "Highland Sludge Drying Powder" type ingredient be introduced to distinguish the level, but this is years in the future so nothing to get worked up over)

[shoogie]

I'm assuming rk. III are going to be treated like Ancients and never be researchable.

probably.

That is not to say never, just probably not going to happen.

This makes me sad. Rank 2 spells are quite common for anyone grouping in TSS. However, even the guilds that have been farming TSS raid targets for months can't get enough Rank 3's for all their members. Even if we have to wait another year before the recipes open up, rank 3 spells will still be exceedingly rare and in high demand.

But all the papers I have been stockpiling won't be worth much if they only make rank 2 spells. (Especially if I have to wait another year before the recipes get put in.)

On a side note... as a wizard... I just have to laugh. I understand your point, Greblhad, but Tears of the Betrayed has to be the very worst example you could come up with. Not only is it specifically coded so that focus effects cannot increase its damage, but Tears rank 3 DOESN'T EXIST!

--Shoogie

[Liwsa]

IMO the correct way to make the spells better would have been the benefits goes up but the mana cost stays the same. This would have made the spells more desirable. More damage/hp/buffage for the same mana = I want compared to I don't care if I ever get any rank 2's or 3's.

[GoneFission]

IMO the correct way to make the spells better would have been the benefits goes up but the mana cost stays the same. This would have made the spells more desirable. More damage/hp/buffage for the same mana = I want compared to I don't care if I ever get any rank 2's or 3's.

Aside from the lack of efficiency of the higher rank spells, I do believe they get some benefit from the resist check. At least I'm certain some of the higher rank necro spells get better resist adjustment.

[Danedori]

I agree with you concerning most buffs, especially HP buffs. However, when you start dealing with heals and DD you have to take AA and foci into account. When you factor those things in, those small differences begin to multiply.

Looking at the level 71 Wizard spell Tears of the Betrayed as an example
rk1 = 1460
rk2 = 1519
rk3 = 1577
The difference between rk1 and rk2 is only 117, truely lack luster. However, if you factor in a 20% focus for non-raiders (rk1 and rk2) and a 30% focus for raiders (rk3) we get (pretty much random percentages, I don't know what the foci percentages really are since I don't have a Wizard)
rk1 = 1752
rk2 = 1822
rk3 = 2050
Now the difference has jumped to 298. Factoring in AA and crits and you see even bigger differences.

Your numbers are not right here. You used a 20% increase for rank I/II but a 30% increase for rank III. It's true that raiders will have a higher focus than non-raiders and that raiders would be the ones with rank III spells, but you still have to compare the quality of the spells using the same focus. When I person is deciding whether an upgrade is worth it, they are comparing how good the rank I is with the focus they have compared to how good the rank II or III is with the focus they have. Their focus % won't change just becuase they upgrade the rank of the spell. Redoing your numbers would give:
Focus................20%..........30%
rk1 = 1460.........1752..........1898
rk2 = 1519.........1822..........1974
rk3 = 1577.........1892..........2050

Which gives only a 140 increase from rk1 to rk3 at 20% and 152 increase at 30%.

Danedori

[olhoss]

It seems to me that people are missing the point on the design of TSS spell ranks. The beauty of the system IS that it makes so little difference. This way no one is screwed if they don't have higher rank spells. if you can get them, fine, but they are not make or break, so it isn't really an issue.

I have no rank III spells and do not expect to have any at any point in the near future, and this does not bother me in the least. I find it more fun to swap spells with people like I used to do with baseball cards instead of desperately camping them or paying silly amounts of plat for them to make sure I am not lacking something really important. I think that is why these spells were designed they way they are.

The only issue I have is of course the buff blocking, particularly for raids. I wish a pop up box would ask if you want to allow one to overwrite the other, instead of having the lower rank spell blocked, but this is a minor issue.

[Wyvernwill]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I see an extremely disgusting, ugly system for spells. Considering the amount of exping I have done trying to get Rank 2s for my groups, and the amount of time invested hunting in multiple areas... it's not even worth the effort put in for them.

As for the Rank 3 set up... don't even get me started. Here we have 8 spells for hybrids and 15? for casters... and the worst thing is that a majority of the spells are great for grouping and soloing, but the omitted spells in a lot of cases are the ones best suited for raiding (the only place you can get the spells).

The system was poorly implemented with little incentive to actually getting the spells. No increased power levels at all, it's the same spell with a minor boost to output and a minor boost to mana cost.

[olhoss]

Considering the amount of exping I have done trying to get Rank 2s for my groups, and the amount of time invested hunting in multiple areas... it's not even worth the effort put in for them.

Exactly my point. I do not believe the intent was to make them a necessary upgrade, so if you get one in the course of your travels...great. If you don't, you aren't missing much. We have gotten into this mindset that we absolutely HAVE to have them, so we go to great lengths to get them, and they aren't a big deal. Are they nice to have? Sure..but I don't think the designers intended to make us all suffer having them as a hard to attain necessity.

The system was poorly implemented with little incentive to actually getting the spells. No increased power levels at all, it's the same spell with a minor boost to output and a minor boost to mana cost.

This is why I think it was NOT poorly implemented. A poorly implemented system is like that of Omens...where (to use my own beloved chanter as an example) I had to get the third 69 rune to be able to mez in the only zone where I could reasonably expect to get any 69 runes to drop. The way the TSS system was implemented, anyone can get their spells, and if you are able to play in the tougher zones where the minor upgrades drop, good for you. The way this was implemented, there is no gigantic disparity between raid players, group players and casual players. Until the research rules of DoD...how many enchanters had the GoD AE Mez? How long did it take most to get the OoW AE Mez? Those spells are game changing for an enchanter, and just ask the group I was with in dreadspire last night how much they appreciate my having an AE mez.

My point is that making the spells readily available to anyone is a good thing, and that the drops not being a large upgrade is also a good design, and I believe my view of it was the INTENT of the designers in making it that way.

I believe the bigger problem is that people are willing to pay the obscene amounts of plat that they do for such minor upgrades. The fact is, there were no rank upgrades to previous expansion's spells, and the rank system is just a small tweak to make spell acquisition more interesting than simply buying from the merchant.

[Ndaara]

I love TSS spell system. I hope they continue to distribute spells in this way. Getting the rank 2 spells has been a nice bonus as we hunt in the zones, but as you say olhoss, if we don't get them we don't fuss.

Well, other than the summoned pet toys and trinkets spells that is. LOL nothing's perfect yes? =)

Just another voice in favor of everyone being able to do their job with their spells as they level, instead of only after their raiding friends level, and gimp them into the zone to loot their nodrop runes.

I play EQ2 also, and having different ranks of spells really makes a BIG difference. That's a nice system too. In that system, the nice drop upgrades are extremely common to get, it's getting the specific one you want that is hard, so they are fairly easy to buy on the brokers (EQ2's bazaar). I think that was the intent of Rank 2 spells in EQlive.

On a related but different theme, I still think we ought to be able to research melee tomes. not that it would be a huge deal, but it would be an extra thing to do.

[Wyvernwill]

You and I are bound to just have to disagree then. Quite simply put, it annoys me to no end that the upgrades are nearly worthless. You might like it, but quite frankly, when you start dealing with stacking issues and even stacking issues with things like agro spells... all because someone got a rank 2 while other's in raid/group haven't. In the end, the upgrades aren't worth the frustration they cause when it comes to buffing.

Given that there is absolutely no way to change between using a rank 1 to avoid stacking issues and a rank 2 when it's not a problem, the issue just grows further and further out of hand.

While it's nice that casters, myself included, were spoon fed their spells this expansion... there has to be some incentive to actually WORK for the upgrades. This game gets more and more to the point where I find less and less reasons to bother with grouping because there is absolutely nothing of value worth wasting my time on. I "was" looking forward to the rank 2 spells as a nice diversion to make me "want" to exp for once. What a sad disappointment I received finding the spells were worthless. In the end, just means more work on PL'ing more boxes.

[olhoss]

I agree with you whole heartedly on the stacking issue though. This isn't really related to the issue of the upgrades being minor, other than that they should simply allow a lower rank to overwrite a higher rank, since the difference is minimal. The problem you run into because of this issue is that for raids it requires everyone to have all or none of their rank II spells. An example of this is a certain fight in Demi where we chain cast PBAE Mez. We use CoD there because not all of us have the rk II TSS mez and we need to be able to overwrite.

In group settings this isn't really an issue.

If this were corrected I believe my assertions would still stand, but I completely understand why this would drive someone nuts in general and in a raid environment in particular.

[gggrant]

Ok, it has been pretty much stated that Rk. III spells will not be researchable, at least not in a timeframe that will be meaningful. If and when the Rk. III's become researchable, it will be in a period of time similar to when the level 65 PoP spells did (i.e., lvl 65 PoP spell = raid spell, Rk. III spell = raid spell). In other words, I am expecting TSS Rk. III's to become researchable no sooner than when SOE increases the maximum level to 85.


On to the Rk. II spells. We can expect to see them become researchable long before the Rk. III spells are (if they ever are). Which will be marketable will be dependent on how each class views their spell books and what spells are released in the interim. DD spells have been given as an example of something that MAY be marketable by then. This can be somewhat missleading though. An example would be with the hybrid spells. Current dropped hybrid Rk. II DD spells are usually sold to those trying to complete their spellbooks.

With hybrids the only real market for researched Rk. II spells with be their "specialty" spells. Any researcher that creates 100 Volcanic Ash Rk. II spell scrolls (41 points of damage increase over the base spell) will have these things on their trader for a very, very long time. Even today most rangers will not buy the Rk. II DD's. For rangers the agro, cure and lull spells MAY be marketable.

What I am trying to say is that once the Rk. II spells become researchable, it will be like now in that only a very small subset of the spells will actually sell in the marketplace. Which ones those are will be highly dependent on what spells are released by SOE between now and then. Right now I am stockpiling paper before it has a use (and a subseqent price hike).

[Qaladar Bragollach]

Also depends greatly on how long it is before they become researchable. Since all rk 2's are already tradeable there may not be a whole lot of market by then because everyone might already have them.

Same way when PoP and GoD spells went live. Was some market for PoP spells but not nearly as much as there was for GoD spells because PoP 65's had already been tradeable for a long time.

Also, PoP 65 spells were not solely restricted to raids. They drop off tactics single group nameds occasionally. Probably a few other 1 group places as well.

[Eanelder]

It occured to me yesterday, another perk for making RK III researchable is that those few spells that never got a rk III version (through raid runes) could be attainable exclusively through research.

Just a thought, even though it would be a few years before this becomes an issue.

[Fulminate]

Your numbers are not right here. You used a 20% increase for rank I/II but a 30% increase for rank III. It's true that raiders will have a higher focus than non-raiders and that raiders would be the ones with rank III spells, but you still have to compare the quality of the spells using the same focus. When I person is deciding whether an upgrade is worth it, they are comparing how good the rank I is with the focus they have compared to how good the rank II or III is with the focus they have. Their focus % won't change just becuase they upgrade the rank of the spell. Redoing your numbers would give:
Focus................20%..........30%
rk1 = 1460.........1752..........1898
rk2 = 1519.........1822..........1974
rk3 = 1577.........1892..........2050

Which gives only a 140 increase from rk1 to rk3 at 20% and 152 increase at 30%.

Danedori

The damage spells dont get any more efficient as one goes up in rank, no. But they do allow the wizard to do damage a tad faster. I dont know about other classes, but one wizard spell does get a lot better with rank, mainly due to the shorter recast delay :

Patient Harvest
Rk I : +5400 mana, 480 recast (~67 mana/tick equivalent)
Rk II : +5625 mana, 420 recast (~80 mana/tick equivalent)
Rk III : +5850 mana, 360 recast (~97 mana/tick equivalent)