It's unofficially official...

[AbsorEQ]

ok going back to look at Strike Poison.

lesser strike poison = 75dd

strike poison = 125dd

strike poison 2 = 125dd

strike poison 3 = 125dd

what it should be is

lesser =75

strike =125

strike2 =150 (would like 225)

strike3 = 175 (would like 325)

Right now those are set to give the same increase, as a percent, as most other things will be increasing in power. I can take your suggestions to the team, but I wouldn't hope for your poisons to improve at a greater scale than anything else.

Do me a favor, compile what you think these should look like and the reasons why. "I want more" isn't a reason... If one of you could email me such a list, I can take it to someone to look over. Right now, those values were set based on balance with all the other gains rogues will be getting (new items, levels, etc.) and you'll need a good argument to get them changed.

A (avancouring@soe.sony.com)

[Wyloc Wormwood]

Hi Absor welcome back.

no dont cringe like that!!

Right now those are set to give the same increase, as a percent, as most other things will be increasing in power.

now hang on lets look at that. we have strike poison = 125dd atm so strike 2 and 3 also doing 125dd is a 0% increase isnt it?

Right now, those values were set based on balance with all the other gains rogues will be getting (new items, levels, etc.)

i must say that a 0% really makes me want to continue poisoning in OoW and if thats in line with the "gains" via weapons, levels and AA then why bother?

[Wyloc Wormwood]

well we got an update on the SoE forums.

remember the request as forwarded by our class rep.

9. Poisons

Integrate all old world poisons into the PoP poison system (including the ability to make 10 dose vials with the 10-15 min durations)

Make poisons more viable by modifying the resist checks so they aren't so easily resisted.

Add new, interesting, and more powerful poison recipes. Extremely powerful, but extremely rare poisons would be a nice addition.

Add an upgrade to the poison mastery AA that would allow increased durations, effectiveness, and the ability to poison others weapons.

Reduce the time investment required to collect components for lesser or more common poisons. Possibly through a better yield in combines or more components being made purchasable.

Add the ability to poison thrown weapons.

well Kytherea posted back from the devs

(no change planned at this time) - perhaps a revision for the future on this

which means you aint getting naff all.
that with our 0% upgrade as posted by Absor *waves* (stop frowning) means theres very little point in my continuing with poisons.
good luck to you mid level guys have fun with them while you can.

bye guys.

[Leiany]

Bane Poison

When I played a rogue I also dreamt about poisoned arrows but thats never going to be supported I guess.

But how about bane poison (usable by rogues only)?

Bane dmg wps are quite rare and a rogue who can prepare his weapon for the mob to be encountered would be both in group demand and regarding skilling up it could make for a whole new path!

Bane poison does damage to a certain race/mob only and so has to be combined with body parts or other drops from the appropriate creatures

low lvl mobs = low triv = low dmg
higher lvl mobs = higher triv =more dmg

So introducing this kind of poison it could
+bring lots of otherwise worthless mobs drops to some use
+provide a skilling path where drops become more important than vendor bought stuff
+give rogues some poison that they will be eager to craft and matches their combat lvl
(its not going to be unbalanced, a 30th rogue who can craft bane poison against 40 lv mobs still has only use for it if he can face that mob at all)
+provide rogues with more group or even raid value
(just imagine 6 rogues with the appropriate bane poison hitting the same mob)
+(my favourite)gives back that spirit that underrating rogues is a costly mistake
(Now what you think this dagger can do to me, human? )

So what you rogues think about it?

[KyStromm]

I understand that recoding how poisons work may be a daunting task, but if it had been done realistically in the first place, we wouldn't need this discussion now.
It makes no sense that I would apply poison to my right hand, then have it be effective on my first non-BS strike, or at least the chance of the proc. I would apply to a blade, be it weilded or thrown or sent via a bow. Many guerilla warfare tactics involve coating with noxious substances. Rogues should be able to take a weapon from a friend, 'treat' it, and have it proc according to the abilities of the weilder.
It does make sense to have it become ineffective after a time, either the poison dries, and is useless, or it's wiped off by applications. Cleric's * of Vie is a damage absorbing shield that works in a reverse manner to what we're talking about. If parts of the code already understand how to deal with
if(30 min elapsed since cast;OR;1500hp absorbed;cancel spell)else spell remains in effect.
then it cannot be too much of a stretch to deploy
if(15 min; OR; successful strike {or X successes}; cancel poison) else poison remains. As applied to a weapon, not a slot.
Making the effect no rent is fine, but why would the blade disappear because it's poison became inert? That doesn't make sense.
I haven't had too much trouble with resisted poisons, and it only seems to happen when I'm over my head. I don't aggree with a MEZ poison line, but the stun is sensible. This is what spiders, jellyfish and some snakes do to their prey, and but this is the muscle lock line, isn't it? I would have assumed it would stop all movement for a few seconds, or more depending on the tier of the poison, then the mob would be sluggish for a while.
Regarding farming, I'm lucky, my guildmates know my obsession with becoming an accomplished poisoner, and save the drops for me, and permit me the few seconds needed to apply it. My only complaint in that is TLC killing the possibility of geting a decent drop rate on farming, but that's a cross-tradeskill argument. Why a level 5 'needs' a snake egg, spiderling silk or poison sack more than a 65 still /boggles me.

[Ironoak]

Then don't call it a "Trade"skill.

If you don't want rogues to be able to sell poisons or poisoned weapons then don't call it a tradeskill and allow rogues to skill up Poison Making to 250 and and one other tradeskill to 250 without using up AA points.

I am a 65 Rogue with a 250 poison skill that doesn't use poisons for all of the same reasons mentioned in this thread. I wish Absor the best of luck finding a rogue that uses poisons on a regular basis.

I don't think Rogues need to mez mobs either but a root poison might be nice.

Would it be possible to make the old one shot poisons either stack or combine? They would not necessarily have to proc like the PoP poisons. They could have the same affect when combined, they would just be good for more applications before disappearing. It would be nice to not have to carry individual little jars or 4 to 6 stacks of the materials required for 1 poison. The old shaman potions combine. Seems like whatever code does it for the shaman should work for the rogue.

Not that I ever expect it to happen but I would like to have poisons make my rogue powerful enough to survive a solo fight with a dark blue mob. As it stands now, I usually have to run from light blue and even green mobs if I am alone.

[Raddan]

These ideas have been mentioned before, but Absorb hasn't been around in a while, and I am convinced the ideas should be considered, so I post again...

1. Allow us to combine a single-dose poison with a stack of summoned (bloody ancille's pouch) arrows, throwing daggers or shrukens, with the result being a stack of no-rent, poisoned ammo items we can use or pass out on raids or LDoN's. No one is asking to get rich. Go ahead and make them no-rent, but please do implement this practical application of the tradeskill.

2. Get rid of the apply poison skill altogether. It serves no purpose but to frustrate. If you want to have a second skill check, like pottery, fine, but like pottery, make it the one skill.

3. Allow the old world poisons to be combined into the the PoP proc version. Actually, for me, this wouldn't really do much to bring the skill back to life, but after two expansion of nothing, throw us this bone.

4. Increase drop rates. I spent an hour in FoB, killed 50 ish heartstring scorpions, and yielded 9 heartstring venom sacks...enough for 4 doses. Come on! Let me buy the components, or increase the drop rates (go ahead and put the components for useful stuff like "slow" poisons on tougher mobs if you must balance it somehow, it's lame killing those scorpions anyway.....a tier three poison ingredient on a level ten mob???

5. Make a tier 4 and 5 slow poison. It's the only poison effect I'd use no matter what the cost, given the hate-reduction poisons are only worth the cost on raids and I can get the free scorpion bile from my ornate pants for added damage in XP groups.

6. I watched Kill Bill vol 2 yesterday. A guy was paralyzed with the poison of a black mamba. Paralyzed as in can't move, not reduced movement (snare) or attack rate (slow). A 30-90 sec stun (not calling it mez anymore) poison is something that is parallel to what exists in the real world (LOL assuming what was in the movie is true, which is probably not a wise practice!) D&D rogues can stun/knockout their prey via a sneak attack with a blackjack/cudgel. WoW rogues also have that power. The ability of the class to provide a minor degree of CC is part of existing fantasy RPG, and well as MMORPG's. Please open up your minds. NO ONE is asking to replace the role of a chanter or bard. We are talking once-in-awhile use to help complete a quest or bail a group out in an emergency. The tradeskill is badly in need of some new wrinkles.

7. Please do provide some feedback for resists. I think it is of the upmost importance for the pre-level 65 raider. That's the toon that REALLY needs that hate-reduction poison to land, in order to survive and continue to contribute to the kill.

edited for grammer. Spelling, you'll have to help me out

[Syuni D'zpecyzczn]

Perhaps this has been mentioned, if so, my apologies. This idea is a bit hard to explain, so just let me make an imaginary item if I may:

Viscous Vial of (poison name)
Augment Type (melee weapon)
NO RENT NO DROP
ROG/ALL

Manufacturing poisons that you could apply at the beginning of an XP run, and then apply to your weapon once for the duration. Making it an augment would allow you to have different items with different poisons in storage.

Recipe:
Poison (whichever) x4
Viscous Substance x2
Combine in a heat source of some sorts.

Creates a Melee Augment (Type ?) that lasts until you log out, cannot be traded, and can be applied to whichever weapon. Care in coding would have to be taken to ensure that the Augment doesn't make the weapon itself NO RENT. I don't know if that can be done.

Further thought on this arc, take one or more of the new Augments, a stack of arrows (new fletch recipe, perhaps, or specify a certain arrow class that can use them) or throwing knives, create a stack of no-rent proccing ranged weapons.

[Raddan]

What I posted yesterday, applying a single dose poison to a stack of arrows or daggers or whatever, obviuosly violates the no-stacked-items in a tradeskill container rule.

I would imagine the augment "birdbath" is also considered a tradeskill container with regards to programming code.

The only thing I can think of is utilizing the spell icons. Once we learn a recipie, make it accesible via the spell icon, and the poison we made would be the reagant. We'd put our weapon, or a stack of arrows or whatever on our cursor and "cast", and whatever is on our cursor would then receive the poison.

LOL still sounds like too much to ask for! As much as I think poisoning range items should be done, I can't imagine doing it one arrow at a time. And I can't think of a way around it, other than the use of the spell icons, which was someone else's idea.

Finally, I do like the idea of mix-and-match recipies. If you increase the dose with more reagants, it makes sense the damage should be greater or the duration should be longer.

RFRAPS

(Rogue's For Removing the Apply Poison Skill)

[Syuni D'zpecyzczn]

While you can't combine a stack of goods, why not a TSable 'Bundle of' or 'Bandoleer of'? Give smiths and fletchers something to do to support Poisonmaking.

[Aina5]

Im not sure if someone mentioned this, or if it'd be possible at all, with balancing issues etc, but would it be possible to make poisons stack with a lot more things? So far as I see I dont see them stacking with buff spells that add procs, and a lot of weapons don't proc both the poison and the proc on your weapon.

Sorry if someone said this already, its hard to go into a long written out thread and read everything written into it.

A few other things to make poison better imo might be to add some buff type effects to poisons, maybe poisons that increase haste over cap by just a bit, add atk to you, or other things that are useful but not unbalancing to rogues. I mean sure adding something like this would be more like adding alchemy potion recipes into the Make Poison database, but these are ideas, or at least a way to broaden this tradeskill without making it way overpowered.

A way to draw people into using this tradeskill for more than just a cheap way to get a 100% wr bag for almost free, and a little more useful than just using it towards coldain ring quest.

The reason's I'd mention haste over cap / atk, is because I do not see any self buffable ways to do this, a few other ideas might be a non resistable stun proc.

I'd say this because just by increasing the dmg that poisons do, wouldnt really draw people into working this tradeskill more, as we'd still have to most likely rely on druids to forage us poison components...

Another idea might be to add poison to armor, you know, throw ur armor into the mortar and pestle with poison, and it adds a ds or makes your armor proc poison, and have to recharge it when a certain amount of procs go off, 20 - 50 type deal, could maybe throw 10 charge poisons in, like 5 at a time to get 50 procs etc... Or is that too unbalancing?

Unless of course they made ground spawns for really high end poison components in places you can only get to safely with SoS.

Anyway, my ideas are probably really unbalancing, I dont think you could really draw people into Make Poison tradeskill without unbalancing things a little bit. ><

[Ironoak]

Retraction

I take back everthing I said about not being able to sell poisons. I finally sold one the other day. It seems they are being used in quests. I will never be as wealthy as caster who can sell his spell casts but at least I can get back some of the money I sunk into this otherwise useless tradeskill.

I would, however, like to know why they put the little Gates quests in for Mauramite Blood Distallate and Mauramite Bile if they never had any intention of creating a poison or at least making these items useful to one of the other tradeskills. You know, the tradeskills they don't seem to have any trouble coming up with new recipes for without asking the users to do it for them.

I would also like to know where all of these weapons and equipment are located that are suppose to make a Rogue more balanced that Absor was talking about. I get the impression that the team that is in charge of Rogues knows nothing about rogues. There just seems to be a lot of untapped potential there with all of the rogue skills, not just poisoning.

One other thing, what is the SOE definition of balanced as it applies to Rogues?

[Wyloc Wormwood]

just a bump really as been asked about my opinon on poisons, theres plenty of information in here for ya.

the aug idea is a great boon, myself i thought it would of made sense to have poison making for weapon proc augs *shrug* but the devs didnt wanna go down that path.
make the most out of what we got. use your skills to construct augs, poison making as a useful skill for what it was ment to do.... well those of you who spent years with them know the score there. just aint worth it.

/wave

[Niami DenMother]

Folks, before this degenerates further into griping and complaining, let's remember a few things:

These are NOT the SOE forums, they are the EQTC forums. As such, SOE staff are not in any way, shape or form required to answer questions over here. Nor should they be expected to do so. When/if they respond over here, remember that it is a courtesy to the community, not something they're required to do. Mind your manners.

We've also wandered from questions on poisons, to questions of overall balance, weapons, gear questions, etc. ... and folks are toeing the line in some cases into getting this punted over to Primal Scream and/or locked.

I know the rogue community at large has a long-standing unhappiness about poisons, but please, let's remember where you are.

Now, don't make me steal the pestle from someone's mortar and chase the complainers until someone actually attempts to make some of the new OoW poisons that haven't been solved yet.

[Ngreth Thergn]

And though you got only a few new poisons... (and I cannot attest to their effectiveness) don't forget you got a half share in something that is making the no rogue shaman ts'ers green with envy.