It's unofficially official...

[Knomercy]

One of my biggest reasons for not using poisons is because they are lacking on the high end.

For instance, my biggest frustration is the ornate leg stun poison. I use them alot when I am trying to gain agro on a mob, which works great. But lets face it, NOTHING in PoP is stunnable by this posion because of the level of the stun spell, yet its a PoP poison? Works great when I go solo PoHate as a rogue, but cmon now?

Suggestions :

Make another tier of poisons, give us some DD's that do 300dmg per proc at least, allowing 600dmg crits. Thats not unbalanced. Give us a 0 sec stun poison that works on mobs up to 65. (Add the GoD Scoundrel leggings to summon this new tiered stun poison). Make these new tiered poisons use common component drops in high end zones (kodtaz or qvic+).

*** BIGGEST reason I rarely EVER make poisons, is because it takes hours to farm components for a poison that lasts 10 minutes. Muramite bile sack? Yea I have 7 in my bank, and i've farmed/cleared GoD to Inktu'ta since release. Don't be requiring this component unless you plan on increasing the drop rate.

Lastly, give us a focus effect on the grandmaster assassin seal to enhance the effectiveness of poisons themselves, and/or extend the duration of the poison buff itself.

Knomercy <Crimson Tempest>
Maelin Starpyre

[Talisen]

I actually thought the weapons/items that proc/summon our poison wasnt a good idea. What's the point of having the ability to make poisons if all we have to do is click legs (???) to summon a batch.

[Wyloc Wormwood]

yep i agree with both Knomercy (said the same thing before) and Jinieren. the poison system is so outdated and underpowered as to serve very little value, sorry Absor mate if ya dont agree, we're the ones that have been using it from way back. we've had 2 expansions gone by with no new ones.

as you see it isnt just me that feels they badly need a boost. at higher end it just isnt worth it atm.

[Shadus]

I don't think you're going to see:
a. Permanently poisoned anything. This would wipe out the idea of rogues making poisons for themselves. It would basically mean that you'd make one dose of a poison and never make another until you changed weapons.
b. It seems to me that poisons should remain rogue only. Selling them for others to use isn't something that sounds good to me.

How about this-- Permenently poisoning THROWING ONLY weapons (ala shruken<sp>, throwing daggers, etc) normal things that are store buyable.

This would serve two functions, 1) Make throwing a bit more worthwhile, 2) Make poison a bit more worth while, as you could "prepare" ahead of a raid.

Perhaps something along this line:

Poison Application Kit:
- Poison of any type a rogue can make
- 20 Throwing Daggers
Result: 20 Throwing Daggers of Poison Type, NO DROP, Each has a proc chance just an effect on a bow.

The additional thought occurs-- add some extra rogue poisons to help address having throwing being a fairly worthless skill compared to archery... like for instance poisons aimed specifically at distance and damage. Againly only allow them to be applied to store bought ranged throwing weapons and make the weapons no drop.

Swift Flight (my naming skills are not extraordinary)
- Ounce of Mild Acid
- Simple Thickener
- Stack of 20 Thrown Weapons
Result: +50 range to a thrown weapon, NO DROP

Magical Strike
- Vial of Viscous Mana
- Stack of 20 Thrown Weapons
Result: MAGIC ITEM, NO DROP

Be nice if you could combine several, but even additional damage, range, and magic items to standard thrown weapons would make them somewhat more viable. Being able to add a poison to a stack of weapons stuff it in a pack and use it when you needed it would be nice.

Edit: This also nix's the problem of making a weapon poisoned and it lasting forever, sure you can poison a stack or five of throwing daggers or whatever... but when they run outta, they run out, and then you gotta remake them.

Edit2: Wouldn't even have to make them NO DROP at that point either if you wanted rogues to be able to trade with rogues, just make them ROG/ALL. Other classes are to careless and would kill themselves if they played with our poison dontchaknow?

Shrug.

[Volante]

Mage here, so I'm not sure if these would even seem reasonable from a rogue's point of view...but one thing that i liked about posions originally was their wide array of effects. you had the basic dd/dots, yes, but there was also str debuffs, resist debuffs, ac debuffs...

so what i was thinking is why not a more unique system than opposed to straight DD/DoT?

how bout some big AC or AC/AGI debuffs? that helps everyone's damage. or if the tank's paper, shoot in a big STR debuff (or whatever it'd be) to make the mob do less damage. WIS debuffer for clerics so they run out of mana faster (bit more evil than the usual mana drain).

or, but the coding behind this might be a bit complex if possible at all..., you know how GoD mobs have strengths and weaknesses to weapons? how bout a poison that cuts through those defenses. if a mob has a strong defense to piercing, the poison negates it (at differing rates) and if it's got a normal defense, well, it'll still help some.

my 2 copper before i pass out from lack of sleep...just wanted to get this in before i forgot about it.

[Wyloc Wormwood]

hi Volante, thanks for your imput.
would you as a spell caster say yes to Rogues having a better stackable debuff line?
just a question you understand.

atm we have one shots (take up space and time to apply) from kunark
the application of these is very outdated in their use, but the effects were good.

the best are
Suseptable Essence (great poison btw pitty its a oneshot) lowers all resists except poison by 30 for 180sec

Visceral Rot (personaly dont like DoTs but some do, even tho they mean you cant use Escape skill) DoT 232hp 58ticks Dex debuff 63 for348sec

Disorientation (never realy used it but its there) debuff Agi 35 and AC 21 for 180sec

im not going to include the britle haste & berserker madness effects for reasons that people who used them know lol.
.....................

ok then we have the *new* advanced poisons these are RNG buff proc effects and the buff lasts for only 15mins

Scratching Madness all resist debuff 10 for upto 60sec (umm great lol)

Rage of Incapacitation (this one i do use *shock* but it was a quested recipie) hate reduction 150 debuff Dex 60 for upto 72sec

Mangled Tendon (never used) hate reduction 150 debuff Str 60 for upto 72sec

now consider that a Rogue debuff poison would stack with Spell caster debuffs, would you like to see a GOOD procing poison for resists? would you like to see your spells land easyer due to the fact you had a Rogue that took time to use poisons in your group/raid? would that be out of line?

proc buff duration needs to be greatly increased, 15mins before you have to burn another (for cost/farming/downtime in use/fails as they are high trivs etc) is just way to short. sure buffs that length are fine from a rightclicky item, but these are made and that takes time.

anyway Volante nice to see you in the shady poison valts.

[Talisen]

Get a Jagged Time Forged Blade from time and you won't use rage anymore.. :\ I don't know if that was meant to help rogues or point out further that our poison abilities can be put down by weapon procs..

[Wyloc Wormwood]

Talisen with a comment like that i may well put my ciggy out in your eye.
having farmed Inny since begining of March and my guild has yet to see a Jagged Timeforged Blade drop, Bard songblades have got to the stage of any class randoming for them just for a laugh to destroy..... and not one JTB.
we're doing better on RSS..... guilds got ONE of those.
lol perhaps there is no problem with itemisation and there are so many Bards around to justify this drop rate *manic chuckle*

so not the best thing to point out mate and will still be using RoInc for the time being.

[Volante]

well, of course make them stack. why go through the hassle of making them if they don't?

however, i don't think rogues would need resist debuffs. there's too many classes with that as it is. 70 mpcf resist off malosinia, 50 mr off tash, 35 fr off immolation of ro, 15 mcf from bards, more if they use their chants, sks have one now i think...

basically after a mob's fully raid debuffed, if i can't land fire nukes for jack by then, a rogue poison dropping FR isn't gonna help me any.

but statistic debuffs would be a nice niche. make it easier for melees to do damage, or take less damage more than what spells can provide, and there's very few in the magic realm. sure, there's cripple...but that's really about it.

it seems more reasonable in my book that magic is used to cut through magical defenses (resists) and poisons (which affect the body directly) are used to cut through the body's strengths (stats)

[Wyloc Wormwood]

ok Volante,
atm our resist/debuff poisons do stack with spells so thats all good, but doing so means they take up a debuff slot on mobs. now with the changes hopfully to buff slots it will mean more things can be used. but consider this, mob X is debuffed/DoT stacked and mister rogue thinks its a good idea to lower its resists by 10 (chuckle) or maybe lower its Str (any noticable effect? never found it really) thats another buff slot gone. now because of that pointless effect Jo the spell caster is unable to place his uber DoT on mob X.

so effects have to be worth using not only in cost of production and time to make, but also to take up a buff slot.

thats why DD's are so handy for us.

ok back to debuffs. Stats? well lets look at what we can do already
AGI
STR
DEX
out of those Dex is the one of most value because it stacks with cripple and anything to help lower mob procs/effects is good. Str doesnt really seam to do much, yes i know it should but it doesnt really so doesnt get used. Agi? sounds good as it should lower AC as well, but again the return doesnt make it worth taking up a buff slot unlike Druid Ro.

so what other stats could we work on? well how about Int and Wis debuffs? could be nice, how about add in a effect to increase Fizzle rate? sounds good, something that makes it hard to think and focus on what your doing and doesnt sound to overpowering.
is that the type of thing your getting at?

*wanders of into dreamland thinking about poisons that tranquilize monsters disabling their ability to Enrage/Infuriate* haha now that would be worth a buff slot *wink*

[Volante]

so what other stats could we work on? well how about Int and Wis debuffs? could be nice, how about add in a effect to increase Fizzle rate? sounds good, something that makes it hard to think and focus on what your doing and doesnt sound to overpowering.
is that the type of thing your getting at?

yea, sort of. btw, npcs have 30 slots, and i think even under raid conditions not all of those are used...

i mean, there's malo/tash/slow/crip/ro...and after that it's pretty much dots or token debuffs.

but also, what about group situations? there you'll have no problem worrying about taking a debuff slot.

out of those Dex is the one of most value because it stacks with cripple and anything to help lower mob procs/effects is good. Str doesnt really seam to do much, yes i know it should but it doesnt really so doesnt get used. Agi? sounds good as it should lower AC as well, but again the return doesnt make it worth taking up a buff slot unlike Druid Ro.

well, this is more a mechanics issue, and perhaps the programmers should look into these and make sure they affect npcs more (-8 /poke

(and not to toot my own horn, i did mention wis debuffs (-8 same wavelength, np...anyway. fizzle one would be good, but is it even possible for npcs to fizzle? NEVER seen that...)

DDs just seem to be a cop out; you're rogues! sneaky! stealth! sly! nothing says HELLO MR MOB!!! more than a nice ka-BOOM in the butt (-8

(and now that i have that image, i'm going to be laughing for hours...)

[Wyloc Wormwood]

well it seams that mobs will be having 50 debuff/dot slots soon anyway. enough to make rogues use a Str debuff poison? haha nope not really, but its one obstical out the way.

it still boils down to is it worth useing poison?
poisons in EQ are not the deadly toxins you would of thought, poison "spells" do the poison damage haha thats mystical poison. not even Grandmaster Sealed Toxin maker can make something for a Ukun to cross its eyes. so much for the defence of Norath hahah.

Mordin Raspp says "wait up lads ill use poison to aid our Victory in this fight"
*sound of laughter from his team of brave adventurers*
"ok i see you point" says Mordin

[Volante]

just have to have poisons worth using, otherwise this whole thread is purely academic.

[Wyloc Wormwood]

*nods* sure if youd be happy as your spell caster with only your kunark spells.
but then i guess we did get PoP proc poisons which are iffy and then the only tradeskill to get nothing new in LDoN and GoD *shrug* but you think its fine so thats ok.

[Volante]

hey! i'm on your side here!

it still boils down to is it worth useing poison?
poisons in EQ are not the deadly toxins you would of thought, poison "spells" do the poison damage haha thats mystical poison. not even Grandmaster Sealed Toxin maker can make something for a Ukun to cross its eyes. so much for the defence of Norath hahah.

i think one of the key reasons the dd/dot poisons rogues get are so terrible is that, possibly, soe feels they do enough damage as it is. so while they're the easiest poison to conceptualize, it can't be overpowering and as a result turns into a toy.

i'm just going on how i see poisons in a role playing aspect. i don't see them as this ability to magically damage a mob, it's a liquid that penetrates the blood stream, so while dots are acceptable, dds are not. it should weaken the mob from the inside out, instead of outside in, and in eq there aren't many effects like that.

of course how things should be and how they are in game are two different behemoths. i've got plenty of beefs with other systems, and how they don't seem realistic even in a fantasy world, and what poison making needs really, is an anchor. something that *defines* what it does. for example, alchemy is the brewing of potions to benefit the player. that's it's anchor. from that you can go and create potions of differing effects that benefit PCs.

kunark seemed to start an anchor for poison making: you've got blind poison, brittle haste, dizzy...nothing really outstanding, though (even for then); nothing you'd see rogues clamoring to make. without interest, it just petered out and became a parlor trick.

currently, poison making's anchor loosely seems to be "additional DPS." i'm sure soe means well, but without any real focus, what can they do? toss the dedicated a bone here and there, give them some recipes and trivials to find, and then shuffle it back in the corner. couple that with balance issues, and you've got a pretty anemic skill.

obviously, if you compare my ideas against the kunark poisons, they seem pretty yuck, but what if you had a wis debuffer of 125? or an AC debuffer of 500? neg 300 ATK? make the numbers large enough, and they make excellent raid tools. how bout a neg 100 AC? or if the mechanics allow, maybe a neg 10% to dodge? make the parts common enough, you have a nice grouping tool.

i just think effects like this would give poison making a bit more interest and more usefulness than just straight damage.