It's unofficially official...

[Jaasper]

I never used old world posions so I can't comment on them. I got into posions when Pop went live. I originally started using posions to reduce agro cuz them warrors just were not good enough to do it. Time passed and warrors have got much beter at agro control and I have not used posions in a year. The following is my own thoughts on posions, and your welcome to disagree.

I don't use posions because the time to farm/make is not worth the extra damage a posion can provide. So what if my DPS is 5% less and the fight lasts 10 sec longer; in the big picture this means nothing. So posions are a luxury not a neccessity.

I am a trade skiller (thanks Grimell for making me do it) so farming/making stuff is not a big deal; however I want to get some return for my time invested. If the rate of posion consumption was about the same as food consumption (1 dose per hour of play) then I could see using posions. I am willing to spend AA points to extend the duration of posions (15 AA's to get me to 1hr would be acceptable).

I like having 2 levels of posions, the Jr level is tradable and even people that can't make posions can use it and a Sr level that you have to make yourself. There is never going to be a secondary market for posions because Rogues are to controlling and have to do everything themselves. Let the rogue twink/wanna be's use the Jr stuff. 2 and 5 dps boost for each level is not unreasonable (with the current line of AA's to pick your dps up).

Only rogues should ever be allowed to use posions, I don't want to be a mage style vending machine.. but that is just me.

[AbsorEQ]

BAH! Uncivil? The lines put in quote were interpreted to be uncivil? I don't see how that can be the case, and more importantly, that was not my intention. But it does not matter. Obviously, you felt offended and therefore I am truely sorry. If we were having a face to face conversation and the lines were spoken instead of typed, you would have noticed my voice did not raise, my body did not become animated. I failed to make it known that I respect the fact that a person with the ability to make a direct impact took their time to come here and read what we have to say, to directly solicite opinions of players. For that I apologize. I understand anytime you post in a forum such as these, you put yourself "in range", but it was not my intention to fire a shot.

The "That's just horrible" comment served no purpose other than to vent. It was out of direct frustration, but that is no excuse. And yes after two expansions with nothing new to something I percieve to be crucial to the character, and my experience of what I perceive to be a high resist rate on the very mobs a hate reduction poison would be useful, I am certainly frustrated. But this is Niami's and Ngreth's forums. My gaming experience has been greatly enhanced due to their efforts, so the last thing I want to do is embarrass or upset them. And you, A, took the time out of your day to listen/read. I should have had more restraint and I apologize.

I am passionate about my character, and I could debate/discuss anything rogue related endlessly. I am disappointed so many of our suggestions have already been dismissed. But the purpose of this post is to make it clear that I am truely sorry I turned you off so, and make it known offending you, upsetting you, or getting a rise out of you, was not my intention. Hopefully, the detail supporting my suggestions in my posts are evidence that they were not meant as simple flames.

"I'm sorry", to me, means if you had a chance to do it over again, you would. And I would. Although I stand by my suggestions as reasonable and appropriate, I should have approached the question better. My apologies to Niami, Ngreth and A.

I certainly appreciate your passion. I'm sorry that I was so touchy about what you said. It comes in part from a realization that we haven't been able to provide a good enough service to this particular community with the last expansions.

A

[Wyloc Wormwood]

*peeks over the wall of Absors booth*

I agree that there isn't any wow factor in poisons. Part of the issue here is balance. Unlike most of the other tradeskills, poisons add directly to damage. If they make a major impact then they change the balance of the class. If they do that then things need to be balanced with that in mind, and then the ability to make poison becomes a "requirement" to be the optimal rogue (something that I hear players worry about sometimes). I'm not sure that we want to try to make any tradeskill that integral to the DPS of a class.

ok fair enough thats down to the crux of the matter. poisons were something for the melee dps class to do extra damage if they put some time in. the limmit to this was that it was so restictive that it couldnt be used all the time chaining poisons. the reasons were space/making/farming/expence as far as Kunark poisons went. then we got "upgraded" with PoP procing poisons ok i still think they are very weak to the point that i hardly ever use them now.

so what do you want poisons to be? a dps boost to a pure melee dps class? sounds like you dont want that, cant understand it myself as thats what rogues do.
poisons for utility? being able to do another classes jobs via our tradeskill? well that is a whole can of worms that would cause more problems.
the reason i say stick with damage is because that what rogues do, however we are totaly dependant on equipment drops on rare tables from raid mobs to do it. poisons would be another way to help damage. top end equipment is held by such a small number of rogues that the selective use of a tradeskill while not demanded could really help other rogues and make it worth their time.
as for the demand that rogues will have to use poison? well i think thats just not true, it will always be something that you either choose to use or not with bag space, agro, time and money it will never be a have to use thing.

it is our Class trade, but for now there does appear to be little in the way of level progression to 65 and above.

thanks for keeping in touch mate.

[AbsorEQ]

It's not that I don't want added DPS, it's just that it has to remain within a certain range.

I'm probably going to be busy for a few days and won't get back here, so if you want to send me ideas please email them to me (or wait until I manage to read this thread again). avancouvering@soe.sony.com

A

[Wyloc Wormwood]

okies Absor, thanks again for stopping by.

[Akishka]

I don't think you're going to see:
a. Permanently poisoned anything. This would wipe out the idea of rogues making poisons for themselves. It would basically mean that you'd make one dose of a poison and never make another until you changed weapons.
b. It seems to me that poisons should remain rogue only. Selling them for others to use isn't something that sounds good to me.

Well, my idea is certainly nothing urgent so I'll post as opposed to emailing

The poison tipped arrows really appeal to me so I'd like to follow that up. A permanently poisoned arrow / throwing dagger is not really a permanent item because the item itself has such a short shelf life. Its not like a rogue would be carrying around a poisoned arrow for the next 6 months (or if he was, it would be useless to him that entire time). Also, you wouldn't just be making one dose of a poison because one dose would poison say, 5 arrows. Five arrows are gone in a heartbeat so you would have to have several doses of the poison for one evening of playing. I think what you are opposing is the idea of one poison getting potentially infinate uses but that wouldn't be the case if it only worked on 'disposable' items.

Second, my little seller heart says everything should be available for a price Just wondering if you would explain the reasoning behind saying that selling poisoned items (such as the arrows) would not be a good thing?

[Raddan]

NO! Raddan, stop posting! You are NOT helping!

I MUST, I MUST post! These ideas seem so good when they are bouncing around in my head!!!

I'll just let it our easy this time...

Ok so no flooding the bazzar with poisoned weapons, but what about a new (summoned) tradeskill container to combine stacks of arrows or throwing daggers with an old world poison, with the end result a stack of "no rent" poisoned ranged weapons? No way we could turn a profit on a "no rent" item, so it would be simply something to add spice to a raid or LDoN, poisoned stars (snare) for monks to pull with, posioned arrows (resis debuffs) to give to your friendly neighborhood ranger...

What about a bazaar catagory "poisons", so looking up poisons for sale could be made a little easier? If the resists on the PoP poisons are NOT out of whack, then there should be a minor market for such an item between rogues that choose to tradeskill and those that don't, correct? Give us a catagory in the bazaar search window so we can peruse the list without having the name memorized...as potions have their own catagory.

I have read the highest percentage of players or playtime is between 20 and 50. So how about questable poisons for that level range, with an emphasis on something that helps improve the Apply skill? I know about the spider venom one, but doesn't that costs 2pp per skill up attempt, plus the venom sack? Not viable IHMO.

Something to help my (level 65's) apply poison skill along? Just get the AA's you say? Bah, then why have the skill in the game? What about the pre-65 folk? I am still working on throwing, lol, because you put it there (begging will remain at zero, however, I am not a warrior!). My make poison is more than double my apply poison skill because I had to sell back what poisons I made during skill ups to reduce the financial burden.

I understand the concept that a rogue without poison should not be less of a rogue, as a shammy without alchemy should not be a less of a shammy, but the shammy can sell his poitions to all classes, as a gnome tinkerer can sell his wares, but a rogue can not sell the fruits of his labors. Make Poison is unique, and an intergral part of the class, and therefore the same rules can not apply.

[Wyloc Wormwood]

ok lets take a step back and look at this as it looks to me that we've hit a brick wall and there wont be anything new and good for poison making until the tradeskill augs get worked on; thats going to be a long way off if at all.

poison arrows/thrown daggers? well as said they dont want us selling these to other classes (oh no we might be able to earn money from a tradeskill haha) so that means we Rogues would use them. if this was viable eg poison 5+ arrows/knives we would have to work them on the kunark system as procs and archery is .... well naff. so if they were using the same effects as the kunark oneshots then this could work out ok, hell we may even be able to kite an xp mob solo hahaha now wouldnt that be nice. we'll wait n see what they say.

now

a. Permanently poisoned anything. This would wipe out the idea of rogues making poisons for themselves. It would basically mean that you'd make one dose of a poison and never make another until you changed weapons.

Absor.

i see ways round that.
*the poison is high triv (thus very hard to make) and no rent. eg you have to keep making it. no one is gonna leave a corpse with a poison on it to save it hahaha come on.

or

*bring the buff in line with other buff timers. 15min buffs?? pfft im talking 1-3+ hours like Virtue or KEI. could you guys go with that?

i still think the advanced proc effects themselves are so weak as to not really be worth it, however if its all we're gonna get (excuse me while i throw a brick through the Alchemists window as they appear to be the luvies as far as new stuff goes atm) then those buffs should last a reasonable time.

[Talisen]

Dangit why didn't anyone tell me the poison forum had Absor's attention?:P

Absor: I agree with you that most of the rogues around want to be overpowered instead of tweaked a little to be better and more useful. Most ideas they come up with are off the wall and semi-rediculous. That doesn't mean there isn't a way to make poison more fun somewhere~

What there needs to be is a more firm line between novice poisoner and expert. Novice being someone who is still working up skill without any AA but still wants to use their class ability for -something-. Expert would be someone that has Poison Mastery 3/3, Master Sketch, Make Poison 250, etc that needs a higher damage or more useful effects from their poisons.

The idea of having a chance to proc the poison over a set amount of time is a much better idea than just a one shot deal, but as content gets added and everything gets more difficult.. poisons need to be upgraded. Just like spells from a caster.

Hang on..idea forcing it's way to the front..

How about this! : Turn poisons from click effects to spellbook type effects! Creating a poison will give you the a certain amount of components for "casting". In some way or another we need to put the recipe in the spellbook. Memorize the poison in a spell slot.. and when we want to use a poison we have memorized and the regeants for we click the icon for a..8 second cast based off of Apply Poison skill? (Using this would make the Poison Mastery faster apply worth something) Add fizzles/mis-applies for skill checks so not just anyone can use. Using poison like this would be a one shot deal, but if the combines of poisons were to give us more than one regeant for this type of usage it'd be more worth it.

Think of it like this..we have a bandoleer or belt of several kinds of holsters or vials full of poisons, each a different one. To use it we just dip our dagger in for an apply then stab something with it! Making the poisons just fills our vials/holsters and we can use it till it runs dry!

I'm going too far into this.. thoughts?:P

Oh I know, we can call it "Talisen's Belt of Poisons!" and if you use it with "Talisen, Bow of the Trailblazer" your poisons do x50 damage !!!! ...ok so I had to throw something rediculous in there just to satisfy the rogue in me >:\

[Talisen]

Oh yeah, expert would be someone who has had 250 make poison since Velious (200 all during Kunark) and has created every poison out there at least 5000 times..

Kill me now :\

I should be the one acting snobby and arrogant about poison, not those Dark Elves in Abysmal Sea who I've never heard of till now!

[Wyloc Wormwood]

I should be the one acting snobby and arrogant about poison, not those Dark Elves in Abysmal Sea who I've never heard of till now!

hahah i hear ya on that!

[Talisen]

The more you guys argue against what he says won't happen the less he'll probably feel like revisiting these boards:P

Come up with something new and useful that's within reason, not a way to do what other classes do or be something you aren't supposed to be.

Revise the poison system, come up with ways to make it more useful and easy to upgrade in expansions! Don't just add new poison types (mez? /laugh) or put it on other weapon slots.

Another idea that I broke off of the others was to have a base poison "spell". By spell I mean an actual spell icon and different types we can memorize for use. Any rogue who knows what he's doing can come up with some minor damaging stuff on the spot, right?
Couple of examples - Base poisons:
10 DD
4 DoT a tick for 5 ticks

Any rogue can use those at any time, but why should we bother with that? Here is why! If our poison combines were to make reagents that have focus effects for our poisons, we could do a lot more damage depending on what we have available to add on to the base in our inventory. Such as.. let's say the Bite of the Shissar combine were to give you 10 reagents, each has a +2000% focus on your DD poison. Each time you click the spell icon you apply the poison and use up a reagent, this one in particular would make your DD 200 damage which is injected in your first pierce. Using reagents from a DoT poison combine let's say is going to give you a +2000% focus, which will make your base DoT a 80 per tick for 5 ticks.

How would this not be over powering? Simple, add the 8 second apply/cast time! Poison Mastery 3/3 would make it a 0.5 second apply time, but even if you use it over and over you will be using up reagents and once you run out you're back to the base, which is a 10 DD or a 4 DoT.

OR*******************************

Have a universal poison that has 0% of all effects that we can apply as we wish, but having a reagent made from my other post of a customizable poison will make the outcome be what you worked towards.

Either way.. just come up with something new and stop trying to argue that we should be able to make a profit off of our trade, or should be able to do everything other classes do. That's thinking like a twink, not a rogue.

OH OH OH HOW BOUT AN UNPOISON POISON THAT WE CAN INJECT IN OURSELVES FOR A HEAL OVER TIME OMFG!@#!@#!

...

[Talisen]

That reminds me, what was the point of Purge Poison? Why was it thought to be worth adding onto our AA list? A 72 minute timer to purge ourselves of a poison that is likely to hit us again within seconds in a fight? Timer set to 5 minutes, please! :x

[Quichon]

Getting back to the discussion at hand...

The complaints I have been hearing, (and I may not have) is that poisons aren't worth the 'bang for the buck', it's too expensive and/or too much hassle to make poisons since most of them are kunark era and the game has gotten a bit beefier since then, and the GoD poisons are procs that aren't nearly as reliable. Problems I hear are 1) not enough damage/effect/whatever and 2) resists. Also, many people want poisons applied to throwing weapons and arrows, which I can certainly agree with so long as one makes sure the items are not tradable with the poison applied.

SO

1) allow poisons to be applied to throwing weapons, but make them nodrop as long as the poisons are applied (don't know if this is possible, but I know that nodrop aug + tradable item = nodrop item auged). If not this, then perhaps some other method of ensuring that the throwing item is not traded after the poison is applied. I think this would be a wonderful pull toy and increase the versitility of the rogue without breaking it.

2) perhaps make rogue-only range items that do small amounts of base damage but either has lots of +poison damage or has some effect. These are throwing items, not clickies. Perhaps make this a cross-tradeskill thing. For example, the base Rogue Dagger is a smithing combine, makes 5 throwing dagger things, triv around where the rest of the throwing weapons are. Combine this with some new poison (that has no effect other than to make these) to make the Poisoned Rogue Dagger which has like 2 dam/20 delay +10 poison damage. ALL/ROG NODROP. Alternatly, combine smithed throwing daggers (the ones already able to be made) with the new poison thing to make the poisoned throwing dagger that's nodrop and like +10 poison and ROG only.

3) As wizards have their lure spells, perhaps rogues should have access to a few poisons that are exceptionally difficult to resist. These should be less powerful than a standard poison, but will be more likely to affect the target. Should also contain obnoxious ingredients in hard to reach places (like the flagged GoD zones for instance) and really high triv (like over 252 so it will never be trivialized, emphasising how important it is)

4) Perhaps adding a couple of espically toxic poisons that do more damage than the ones currently out (like a 1k or mabye possibly even 2k, other effects similarily extended) but is easily resisted and again requires exceptionally difficult-to-find ingredients (perhaps named drops) in hard-to-reach places (upper end flagged GoD for example) and have obnoxiously high trivs (over 252). Good luck trying to get it to land unless you got a buddy with Malo though (was thinking of it going lure but the OTHER direction, so instead of like -100 resist, it was +100 resist).

4a) Another idea on that same topic. Take your already existing toxin. Combine it with upper end GoD item. Makes it a lure based (toxin it was combined with). Extremly obnoxious triv and hard to obtain. Same thing with the double strength but easy to resist toxins. This would give rogues versitility which was always a key factor in being a rogue, but make it uber-rare drops (like 1/1000) in high end zones like flagged GoD (or even hanging gardens level, you'd pretty much need to consistantly farm to get any, which makes it tedious in a zone that is not condusive to soloing). Make sure the triv for this combine is really high as well.

I can understand the poisons having become no longer useful, and I can understand Absor not wanting to go overboard and making it crack, so perhaps these suggestions will be taken... if not seriously then at least the basis for serious discussion to fix the problem everyone agrees exists.

Feel free to tell me to shut up if I'm way off base here.

[Jinieren]

I've been a rogue for over 5 years now. One of the things that caught me from the very beginning was that you could make poisons and apply them to do some extra damage. Few problems with it at the time - things like your poison could actually get interrupted, resists, availability, could only apply it to one blade for one shot (which still makes no sense aside from coding issues).

Surprisingly, poisons have had very little in the way of upgrades since those days. It takes an entire quest, requiring you to be at least level 46 (to zone into PoFear), to get the grandmaster seal to make 10-dose poisons. We also now have the 15-minute poisons that are considered imbued procs (and therefore have stacking issues with spells with innate procs - Night's Dark Terror, Call of Fire, etc.).

Since the beginning there have been 100 DD poisons, which were decent back in the Kunark era. There were the anti-undead and anti-summoned poisons as well which did slightly more damage. But now when we're facing mobs with 100k hp, and even with my poison proc buffs it adds a tiny bit of dps. Plus these new poisons don't even touch the apply poison skill.


Possible solution?
When a single poison takes 10-30 minutes to make because of porting around for parts, you're forced to do it in bulk. So camping for a couple hours for components equate to doing a couple hours of dps elsewhere.
Make a series of quests with rogue guildmasters perhaps. Make the rewards of the quests give you ranks in poison making and reward you with an item that is similar to the Bidilis' Chain Leggings (the pants that summon poison). Enhance the other poisons so that they become useful only in special fights... these 125 poison procs are useless against big mobs.

Procs in general have been rendered weak by mobs gaining hp. I remember the Blood Points from Charasis (Kunark era) were 80 point lifetaps. Why is it that the only weapons I've seen with any kind of significant procs since then are Ethereal Destroyers from PoTime with 750 DDs?


One other idea...
Maybe make certain poison fortes - skill trees similar to Abjuration, Evocation, Divination. Perhaps make it so that certain rogues can specialize in creating/using slow poisons, or DD/DoTs, or debuffs?
Specializing in slow poisons could make rogues a somewhat viable class as a slower in exp groups. We already have locustlures and a few other slow weapons. In raids slow-oriented rogues would be useful for getting in a slow earlier than a shaman. Lives could be saved.
Specializing in DD/DoTs would be the rogues who only go for the most damage and care nothing for the other trees. DoTs would be dangerous for raids because of their mez-breaking properties, but it's a risk they'd have to take.
Specializing in debuffs would be an option for rogues who try to save other people mana (by lowering resists) or reduce the dexterity, agility, strength, or AC of a mob.