What makes crafting fun?

[Tulouis]

Hey all

I am working on a project for a class I am taking right now. The project is designing a computer game, in my case an MMO. I am working on the crafting system for the game right now. I am an avid MMO player, and one thing I have universially found in MMO's is that the crafting system is generally dull and/or frustrating.

So, I have come here, knowing that this is the biggest haven for MMO crafting types out there, in need of advice from the experts.

What I need to know is what makes crafting fun? And what makes it not fun?

Any and all input I could get from yall on a made from scratch crafting system would be excellent.

If you would rather Email me than post, please feel free. My email address is j_r_cronin@yahoo.com.

Thanks in advance

[Doomspark Deathfire]

The following is COMPLETELY my opinion.

1) A crafting/tradeskill system needs to produce items that either have some demand among the player base, or have a REASONABLE sellback to NPC vendors.

2) Skill-up paths need to be well thought out so that they don't "bottleneck".

3) It's fine to make tradeskills interdependent. Actually, it's a GOOD thing to make them so.

4) You shouldn't be able to completely max out a tradeskill by sitting on your behind next to an NPC vendor.

5) If you have the concept of "cultural" tradeskills as in EQ, *all* race/class/deity combinations should have viable end-products.

6) Again drawing from EQ: if you have the concept of Enchanters, put NPCs in your game who will (for a fee) enchant metals, gems, or whatever.

7) Skill-up chances need to be based on something other than INT or WIS. EQ gives the INT/WIS casters a huge advantage in mastering tradeskills.

Those are my initial thoughts. Good luck.

[xaanru]

I should be hard enough that not everyone can GM it. If the skillup path is too easy, and tons of people GM it quickly, the value of the items plummets to below cost.

[xaanru]

I should be hard enough that not everyone can GM it. If the skillup path is too easy, and tons of people GM it quickly, the value of the items plummets to below cost.

[Calabar]

What makes crafting fun?

That is not an easy question to answer. Its not quite as hard as asking for the meaning of life, but its heading in that general direction. What makes football fun? What makes gardening fun? What makes auto mechanics fun? Personally I don’t care for any of the above. But I love working on trade skills in game. Why? Because its fun. *grins*

I feel there are two types of trade skills: those that are useful and those that are simply fun. The lines aren’t black and white, of course, but I feel there is a difference. Smithing and tailoring are good examples of useful skills. The main reason to make weapons and armor is for someone to use them. If you don’t plan to use them yourself you sell them, or give them away, for somebody else to use. Baking is a good example of a fun skill. Its fun to hand out milk and animal cookies to people even if the game doesn’t require the characters to eat. Baking racial meats and eating them in front of players of that same race can also be amusing. Thankfully food is also something that is useful as well in EQ, but even without that element I’d bake foods just for the fun of it. Batwing crunchies anyone?

Another element that makes trade skills fun is very basic. Its fun to take different items in the game and combine them to make something completely new. I’m not sure exactly why that’s so much fun, but it is. Though EQ’s crafting system is so much richer that what is in UO, UO does have a feature that I miss. Crafters in UO have a chance of making exceptional items, such as weapons and armor. When they do so they are given the option to add their name to it. For example, “a long sword of exceptional quality crafted by Calabar.” Such items give your character a little bit of immortality.

Something else that draws me to trade skills is my love of building up my characters. Trade skills give me another goal in the game. I may not be powerful enough to run in and slay a dragon, but I can work on my baking skill until I’m one of the best bakers of all Norrath. And I feel there’s a lot to be said for having goals you can achieve without having to group with others.

If your thinking of creating your own trade skills, try not to make them all exceptionally hard. Players should not be able to achieve all their goals within a moth of character creation or there is no further reason to play the character. But if everything is too difficult to do people can become frustrated and quit the game anyway. A good mix of difficulties would be best, in my opinion. Trade skill A is easy to GM, which would work best if trade skill A was one of the fun skills, so any low level character has a good chance to be able to work on it and gain a sense of accomplishment. Trade skill Z is extremely difficult to grand master. Only those who work very very hard and very very long will have any hope of reaching GM status. And of course there is a range of skill difficulties between the two. This allows everyone to pick a trade skill difficulty they can have fun with.

But when it comes right down to it, it just takes a certain personality to enjoy working on trade skills. Some people enjoy it and others don’t. Like one of my favorite quotes says, “Fun is whatever is fun.”

[Krazick]

crafting ... fun...

Hmmm...

The prior posts highlites a number of my thoughts. I will add some additional ones about what I would like to see added (maybe EQ2?).

Basically the ability to create an item that has player demand. But, as pointed out, if there creation is to easy there will be a flood of the product and the demand will be filled and then vanish. The products produced should be "as good as, if not better" than what can be found out in the field.

I believe if the ability to "improve" a product, it would be a lot more fun. What do I mean by "improve"... an example:

1. Player has a pair of Plate Greaves (leggings), that he desires to be "improved".
2. Provide the crafter the Plate Greaves who then uses his "scribing skill" to draw up a Sketch using parchment and ink.
3. The Sketch is taken to a Pottery Master, who uses the "pottery skill" to create a Mold using the sketch, clay and water.
4. The Mold is taken to a Blacksmith who uses the "smithing skill" to create the final "improved" Plate Greaves using the mold, ore and smithing tools.

Each of the Steps 2, 3 and 4 can have "magical" components (parchments, inks, clay, water, ores, tools) that will add magical effects or bonuses. But even if not the final Plate Greaves could have a slightly improved AC, lower weight, encumbrance factor, etc. Additional steps that could be added... brewing of the ink... tailoring the parchment or padding... and such.

The production process could be repeated with the new item as a starting point... but each cycle would show less and less basic improvements. (there is a limit to how good any item can be made, and the practical limitation of game implementation).

What I am getting at, is that a craft is "fun" if the player sees some value added... or benefit seen from their "hard work". The current EQ Tradeskill Grind that produces tons of utterly useless products to get the skill up is not fun, because the products are of no value to any player. These "time-sinks" are intended to forestall all but the most devote tradeskillers from working up the chain. But the fact that you can spend the time, you too can get all of the tradeskills maxed. Then you have no need of others to support you.

I believe in the idea of the Master Craftsman knowing ONE Skill Extremely well ... others fall by the wayside. And the skill needs to be practiced... or it is forgotten. The Skill should degrade if not used.

[kiztent]

I'd say if you want to know what makes crafting not fun, just look at smithing over the last year. Textbook example of how to make a skill suck.

I think the BIGGEST thing you need to do is allow growth. If skills go up to 250 - cap your first round of best items at 150 skill and cap the skill at 150. Make it so that people aren't penalized for starting a skill late - again to reference smithing people that skilled up on etherial rings before the nerf or plate before the changes are sitting pretty to take advantage of every new recipe that comes out. And with capped skills, they automatically prevent any new profitable skill up recipe from being introduced since they can trash the market with maximum possible sucess rates out of the box. I'm guessing every other skill is like that, but smithing as a solo skill (that is, not supported by a high level drop farming for you) is done. Once the BD market drops to oblivion, it will be impossible to every introduce decent salable items that don't require obscene amounts of farming (see also: PoP armour, drop of pure rain).

But the flexibility to allow growth is the most important thing you can put in a tradeskill system.

[Longfoot Wispwoods]

I think the comments above are very good insights for someone designing a game employing aspects of tradeskills. Bottomline, I think fun means different things to different people.

If there were one aspect that I think would be a dramatic, and beneficial, change on tradeskills, it would be this. Most items should wear out. Food rots, drinks sour, clothes tatter and metal rusts... but never in Everquest.

[Taushar]

To me, I rarely make stuff for myself so I do it for fun more than need. I do occasionally make stuff for friends and guildies but mostly I do to skill up.

Personally, I think some people do tradeskills to give thrills of gambling without money involved. I know for a fact that I tend to act like gambling when I am doing combines. I often say come on point, come to papa when I am doing combiens, hehe. Anything using RNG would be like gambling so I think some people are taking advantage of this aspect of the game, I know I am to a certain degree.

My 2 cents worth.

Taushar

[Lacries]

My source of tradeskill fun does not necessarily come from the fact I GM'd in JC...but that I am a gnome by race and I can tinker. Tinkering is unique and is fun! It is fun to make unique items. Some that are useful and some that are riduclous, but all the same they are fun.

I would think for crafting it would need to be a variety of possibilities. I know my ruts have occured from making the same item for 10 skill points, then looking on the list to see what is next above the current trivials...it really seems to me to be no variety of sorts just a succession of items that are blah! Perhaps devise a system of 3 to 4 different items to make within all skill ranges...brewing has a large variance, but pottery gets stuck at a point where all that is feasible to make is poison vials...yuk!!! Have other choices like vases (useless, but different)...or rabbit molds, or silly things...that make the crafting fun. Perhaps an NPC within the game can orchestrate a scavenger hunt using trade skill useless items...hmmm ....that sounds like an idea. Anyhow...uniquiness IMHO is what makes the trades and crafts fun. Another thought just occured to me, perhaps create an unique trade per race....like Wood Elfs get to do exclusive higher fletching...the really neat bows and such....and high elves get the chance to do jewelry and go beyond to make the nicer stuff. But allow everyone the opportunity to skill up to some number like 250, but for specific races they can skill up to 275 and make extra neat items not found, dropped, or not that just anyone can make.

Just let me tinker and I'm content

[Mutovim]

The fun for me is being able to make something that a friend would want to use (that and the sheer fun of tinkering, I have FIREWORKS beware :twisted: )

the one thing I'ld like to see (as was posted above) is a way to take items out of the game that way there's a demand for items made at all levels, either by items decaying over time (not sure I like) or by making the high end items requiring a lower level item as a subcombine (that way someone starting out doesn't have 200 odd levels to slog through before they can make something that people are interested in, would also help the game's economy...)

[Drubear]

I can't really add much other than this link

to Gumkak's site that has two great essays:

"I want to bake bread." http://www.valendor.org/gumkak/showa....asp?article=1

and

"I want to forge swords." http://www.valendor.org/gumkak/showa....asp?article=7

They're classics.

[Sanna]

mm, my two cents.
and this post comes in two parts.

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PART ONE

My boyfriend plays a mod for Neverwinter Nights that is a persistant server mod, thus making it a bit like a localized MMO, just more of a... not-massive multiplayer online. The particular mod contains the ability to 'tradeskill'. His charactor crafts jewelry; for him, a source of income. He has to go out and mine the gems and ore himself; at first glance, not a bad thing.

He sets up the game and shows me how it's done. I take an axe from his inventory, and start hacking away at the rock. The charactor gains Mining Skill points and finds gems. Eventually the rock exploads, signalling it is no longer minable (but it respawns about 5 minutes later with a different gem in it). I go to the next rock, and attempt to mine it.

I can't.
My skill isn't high enough.

THAT to me was creepy enough that I wanted to stop right then and there.
Now, I can understand that this sentiment might not be universal, but my personal opinion is that, Really High End Stuff aside, tradeskills should not be skill-restricted across the board.

I mean, imagine having a skill restriction on, say, Apricot Marmalade + Bread. "Your skill is insufficient to combine these materials." ??? That, to me, would be anti-fun. If I wanna do something, I wanna take a pot-shot at it, not have some 'nanny' tell me "I'm sorry, sweetheart, you're not intelligent enough to make your own sandwich."
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PART TWO

What [/i]is[/i] fun, for me, is making stuff. I'm a creation nut, I like to make stuff. I start real life projects all the time (unfortunately i don't always finish them, but that's my own fault). In a game, the more varied the stuff I can make, the better.

I agree with: "Don't have bottlenecks." They suck.

I agree with: "Make the finished item be USEFUL." Did anyone mention scalars? heh.

I'm not sure I agree with: "Create continued demand through decay of items." I see the game-logic behind that, but... take fishing poles, for example. They break. A lot. If my Sharkbone Warhammer or Centi Whateversword broke such that it disappeared out of my inventory and my hand and I was left weaponless in the middle of a fight... that would suck, too. A lot. IF an item like a weapon or piece of armor is going to break, at least make it fixable by a person of the appropriate skill and skill lvl. Like, have a Sharkbone Warhammer Patch item that can be combined with a Broken Sharkbone Warhammer to fix it. Or something.

end of me.

[Verdandi]

I started brewing because I wanted something else to do. It was safe, could be done in very small snippets of time, produced something that was good for laughs, and allowed me to explore new places in search of vendors and drops for my recipes. I also liked seeing those skill-up messages! I loved having a whole new way to advance my character. As I expanded into skills other than brewing, especially baking, I loved being able to put to a good use all those random things that dropped and had just been sold to vendors. I could bake those meats into treats for myself or my friends. There was a time when I had baked and brewed at least one of every single recipe. There were even a few quests I could do. I was extremely pleased with myself the day I brewed an easy drink for a paladin's epic quest! A brush with greatness!

So brewing and baking really hooked me to start. That's when I started wanting to get my skills up just for the sake of the skill. I was thrilled to see all those 0's in my skill list start climbing. A casual player, I loved having tradeskills to fill the small pockets of time I would get that couldn't be used to accomplish much hunting. Once I had several of them up to substantial levels I started getting more use out of them, yet another reason to stick with it. The self sufficiency was wonderful.

It is only relatively recently that I've been able to make money from my skills, primarily smithing. I can't say that I mind that at all, but I would definitely still be a tradeskiller if it were otherwise. I still value highest the ability to make use of small units of time, the excuse to go wandering around new places, and the ability to turn otherwise useless junk into valuable new things.

[Hibashira]

My 2 cps...

Playing a game is ultimately about seeking satisfaction. It can be many things, to be someone I cannot in RL, to do something I cannot in RL, etc. One of the main satisfaction came from achievement and in EQ, achievements can is often signify by a number. When you ding a level, ding an AA point, etc. Its a visible (and audible) reward.

To me, crafting has the same effect, getting that skill up is a reward, and getting another one and another. Sure the process is mindless, and half the people don't care how high your skills are. But the achievement is internalized. After planning for a, say, 200 combines run for days, collecting components, etc., and you sit down for a couple of hours with a goal in mind, and you see it happens, knowing full well that the RNG can turn against you any minute. And then in the end, reaching the goal and staring at the screen, smiling at the (250) or whatever your goal was.

Yes, its definitely achievement driven.