What makes crafting fun?

[Flea]

my thought on it would be this ... don't limit the items that can be combined ... setup some sort of randomizer that would allow the possibility of unlikely items combining to make a new item ... so that there wont be a set recipie for one item and no other use for that item ...

i agree tho that if tradeskills are going to be somewhat dependant on a class there should be some sort of NPC that the needed items can be purchased or quested for ... kinda like the ore quests for quality ore in EQ .. have something similar to that for enchanted metals or imbued stones ...

[Arbrelax]

Use it up, wear it out!

I think it was touched on in one or more of the preceding posts but I would include a breakage/wear/tear/rot factor for items. This would make the player world a bit more "realistic" (I know, I know, it IS a fantasy world) provide another avenue for trade skillers to ply their skills (repairing broken/damaged items) and the added bonus of the amusing look of mortified chagrin on the warrior's face when that uber sword breaks in his/her hands as they were about to land the killing blow to a mob that immediately thereafter critical heals itself :shock:

My version would (as some games I've played have done and others have commented in other forums) have the items suffer wear and tear over time from use. When they finally reached their limit of damage they would break (but not disappear). The user would have the choice of paying a sliding repair charge for worn items to upgrade back to full "utility' or risking breakage - which would require a larger cost (to reflect the much greater effort required to reforge, etc.) Magic items (most useful items seem to have some magic feature) would in addition to requiring the basic skill for its general class (e.g. smithing for swords) require the attention of some magic wielder, either a simple enchantment to make it "magic" (such as combine weapons which are "magic enough" without a spell proc to hit magic only creatures) or the expenditure of either a scroll of the spell which the weapon originally proc'd or some other magical element.

Another feature could be the addition of some kind of quality - which would depend on the skill level and perhaps time/effort/quality of raw materials used. This would add another dimension to the Skill up path. Sure, when my skill in smithing is 100 and I attempt to make an Uber Sword of Singing Death which is trivial at 250 I MIGHT get really luck and cobble one together, but would it really be as good as the one made by the Grand Master Smith whose skill is 250 and who makes them in her sleep? This coupled with the ability to mark your goods (which mark might or might not carry an indication of your skill level instead of relying only on word of mouth reputation) would serve to "immortalize" the work of the truly skilled and also make for interesting dynamics in pricing of goods.

If I'm a poor warrior I might settle for the Uber Smacker of Doom made through a stroke of fantastic luck by Sir Shoddy (or which had no mark of its maker - an option I would permit) who would be lucky to make a pair of lead knitting needles on a good day, knowing full well it might break or wear out very quickly. If I was a member of a very well financed guild that used 1000 plat pieces as skipping stones while sailing the Ocean of Tears I might insist on one made (and labeled as such) by Mistress Qualitysmith because i could expect it to last through the next few raids without any worries.

I grant that the foregoing would not all be popular with the USERS of items (especially the most unfortunate situation for the warrior described in my first paragraph ). I think they would make the game more fun for trades people and the trick would be to find a proper balance that didn't leave the fighter classes in a lurch.

[Tulouis]

Thank you all for the replies so far. I had an idea of where I wanted to go with this, and while that idea is still recognizable in what I have now, it has been largely shaped by your responses. These replies have opened my eyes to a lot of issues with crafting systems, both those out there right now, and the one I had planned before I posted here.

Keep it coming! I will come back and post my finished system when I get it done, if yall care to read it =)

[Reflan]

I have to agree with Kiztent that I see smithing coming to an end shortly. The BD armors are nice, but they will be killed off as more and more people get ornate armor and more PoP armor and armor from so many places. I suppose the same thing will happen with tailoring. This will be a terrible blow to people(like me) who have spent an enormous number of hours maxing the skill only to see it only make items that will eventually only be suitable for twinks -- and will sell at roughly that kind of price.

Tae ew was nice too, but the bloods are so incredibly common that the armor has dropped to a trivial cost. The chain BP, for instance, is a reasonably close equivalent to CoV dragon quest armor, which some people spend many dozens or even hundreds of hours camping before getting -- and they have to work on faction for it, to boot! It's a no-brainer to buy Tae Ew, which helps smiths, but it is flooding the market so fast and now so cheaply that its lifetime will be very short, I feel.

The problem with games like this is item escalation. I feel it has been far too rapid. The game is playable as it is; you need rewards, but they don't need to be gigantic upgrades. With dropped items that have 130 and more HP and mana on them, and STA and wisdom/int further boosting those stats, where do you go? Nowhere really, unless you are willing to keep putting out a huge number of well-designed(!) expansions. Certainly not to tradeskills, where you can make a BD armor that has 51 AC on it -- whoop de doo, these days. Nice, sure...but no comparison to dropped stuff.

You need to keep dropped stuff and tradeskill made things in some kind of parity. If I can only make inferior things, who will buy? If I can only make them for my own use, why would I, if there is so much out there that is better? Sure, if you could skill up rapidly and for little cost...but take a trade like smithing. You will not be skilling up quickly. If you can spend so much less time and effort, and have far more social interaction, fighting beasts for drops(the reason most people buy a game like this is not for tradeskills, but to get together socially with others and have adventures) compared to skilling, why tradeskill at all?

It's a problem EQ has not figured out satisfactorily. I think it's going to be a big surprise and disappointment to some when the BD armor no longer sells for much over cost, making it not worth the time to make or worth the time to master the skill, for many people.

I'm one of those. I skill to enjoy the things I make, and to make them for friends and guildies sometimes, too. If I can't make anything I or my friends want -- why bother? There's nothing fun about camping green mobs for hundreds of hours(think: shadowscream), or about clicking over and over again like a robot on an assembly line. The destination is what counts. The utility of having high skills, the self-satisfaction, for some the bragging rights, the ability(and DESIRE) to wear and use what you make yourself.

I'm afraid that unless they raise the cap on skills and give us a bunch of new, super high level recipes that make raising skills necessary, tradeskills will very soon be stuck at the equivalent of an expansion or two behind the rest of the game in terms of what you can make and how good it is.

Any idea how many people are selling Tae Ew in the marketplace in my server? Or fierce heraldic? Don't ask! But at least they had incentive. Once everyone gets in the lower level planes and is able to do no-fail combines on vastly superior armor, smithed goods will become junk.

Another thing -- it strikes me as poorly adjusted that human clerics should be able to make the best armor that ogre warriors can wear. Where's the incentive to warriors to spend the gigantic number of hours necessary to do smithing(or spend the enormous sums, if he even has them, which very few do) to high level if, when it comes to wearing his own handcrafted pride as the reward for his prodigious effort, he has to acknowledge, as does everyone else who sees it, that it is notably inferior to what a human cleric can make for him? When he can't say to his fellow ogres, I've put in huge effort to be the best, and now all my fellow ogres can come visit me -- for gifts for friends, and to stand in line like everybody else at my Oggok Walmart franchise?

Might make some humans mad to hear it, but it would be nice if they could make the best human armor, too, and elves could make the best elf armor, etc. Everyone should have a cultural path that is equally valid. If not, it creates a bizzarely unbalanced market with only one preferred item. And it destroys a lot of both the pride and roleplaying aspects of tradeskills when putting in all the work necessary to completely master a skill makes you still a distant second, third, or fourth anyway when it comes to the fruits of your labors. Nothing wrong with halfling bags -- bags are not essential. But if games like this are largely about developing your character's potential, then that development shouldn't see in any way like a dead end or an inferior reward for your effort. Nor should you just have to suck it up and say you like it, and are in it just for the sheer joy of clicking. Most people want a reward that is not inferior to the next guy's reward, if he puts in the same amount of effort. That's a natural and fair thing.

[Gargazon]

The thing about tradeskills for me is that you have the ability to create useful items.

The problems I have with them, from an EQ perspective, is that the end products aren't even as close to as good as products you get from slaughtering mobs.

I understand that some people want to kill stuff (I love it myself), and some want to make stuff etc, but if you are going to have tradeskills at least make them viable.

My suggestions for tradeskills would be either don't have them, or FORCE people to do them to get/maintain high end gear. I realize that many people would say, hey, if I knock down a wizard mob, I have every logical reason to strip his robe off of him and use it. I would counter ok, but you've just hacked, beaten, burned/frozen, sliced and diced this poor guy into non-existence...I'm betting his robe wouldn't make it through all that in one piece. Artifacts and god drops? Well ok, I can sorta buy those since they would be nearly indestructible because they would be powerful enough to have been used to protect a god...but then again you just hacked, beaten, burned/frozen, sliced and diced the poor god into non-existence as well, so did his armor make it through in one piece? If you say yes, I suppose I could also say yes to dragon loot, I mean they have treasure hordes right? Day to day stuff though, the stuff you need to have to have a hope and prayer of tackling these kinds of creatures should all be player made IF you are going to have tradeskills

My logic behind this is that if you want tradeskills, you have to give people a reason to do them, and in doing this, give people a reason to go out and get the stuff to make things that they absolutely have to have if they have any hope of venturing outside the newbie yard. This is the reason I have loved playing on Stromm thus far, tradeskills are still useful...but they are quickly becoming useless as there are already people doing high end tradeskills. Mudflation is already taking over, the banded armor you can make isn't all that good anymore, and most people don't have the money to skill past it. As a result, the better item drops now appearing have insane price tags, so the uber guilds (well, the top two guilds we should call them, no one on this server is remotely close to what could be called uber yet) are quickly draining the rest of the people of their hard earned plat by selling them items they no longer need at inflated prices.

The other side of it is the tradeskiller who got on top fast and is using that level of skill to monopolize the market, and the farmer who can now charge more for componets than the average person can afford. IMOHO basic recipe ingredients should drop like rain. Crag spiders dropping up to 8 silks is a good example, but frankly ALL spiders/spiderlings should. This would make it flat out impossible for people to monopolize all the bottleneck ingredients and shut out competition. There is something seriously wrong if you skill system has drop tables which allow people to make more money from the low end items componets than the guy who actually makes them into the finished product.

Another thing, and I hate to say it, because I like persistent equippment, is you must implement item decay. The problem is it must be logical and balanced...I don't have much faith in SoE to do that properly. The hack n slash crowd (most of the player base) would howl over this of course, because it means they either have to do it themselves, of pay someone else to. Paying someone else to do it would be the reason you needed tradeskill people in the first place. (They could still have their top end gear, they would just have to have crafters to make it.) These crafters should be able to make a profit if you are too lazy to do it yourself, and as items improved they should wear longer. I would expect RZs sword for example to last darn near forever. In fact, in certain cases, I think items should should be flat out indestructible. A wooden shield though? Those should be cheap to make, cheap to repair, and fast to disintegrate. A metal banded wooden shield should last longer, a plate shield even longer, enchanted shield even longer, and enchanted and imbued longer still since it has not only been enchanted, but blessed by a gods favor. If it's made from the scale of a dragon, it should last and last, and last.

There are problems with this though. If stuff has decay, then high end stuff must get easier to get, and must drop in larger amounts, thus increasing the acceleration curve to reach the top levels, and causing people to quit the game sooner, which is why I believe SoE doesn't do it. If the loot drops are pathetically rare, and the exp curve is tedious and horrid, it takes longer for people to gear up, and level up to the end game, and that keeps the dollars flowing into the coffers. The investors like this. My argument though is, if your game is that bankrupt in the playability/entertainment department that it won't hold peoples attention, then that is a design issue, not a level curve issue.

Also an issue for me is the skill up paths. In EQ there are a few skill up paths that everyone uses in each skill, and that in and of itself isn't bad, but when these paths cover 60+ points in some cases and make an items, which would otherwise be useful, and valuable as a sellable product, worthless as power skillers dump it on the market at, or below cost to get rid of it...huge problem here. Skillup paths are fine, but they need to make it so that doing an item more than 5-8 points from its "trivial" level becomes a really really risky (read: likely to fail miserably) proposition. This forces people skilling up to move into different items every few points to continue skilling up.

This would not only make sense, it would prevent the market from becoming flooded because 1 person decides to skill up this week, and ruins the market for everyone. In order to enforce this on skillers you should never get a skill up on a failure. This might not make logical sense, because we often learn more from our failures than from our successes, but it makes perfect sense from a gameplay perspective, because it prevents the market from being flooded.

Items must also have a reasonable merchant sellback value, right now the only people who have it are the jewelcrafters. This shouldn't be the case. It should be 5% loss whether buying or selling. In other words, you pay 105% to and merchant for it (or it's componets) and sell it back at 95% of it's value.

Lastly, as I have touched on before, but want to restate since it is supremely important, crafted items MUST be as equally desirable as their looted counterparts.

So basically I think it boils down to this

1) Ability to make useful items

2) Componets for these items to be common enough for day to day items that they are cheap and easy to get.

3) Reasonable item decay built in so that there is a continuous need for these items, and the people who make/repair them

4) Certain high end drops/crafted items using high end componets that are completely indestructible, or so near so that it would take a dragon/god to do it, and even then with some effort. This to allow people to actually use the items instead of banking it for fear it might get destroyed.

5) The ability to repair all items using easily attainable repair componets. This includes high end items. If you have already busted your hump to rip a scale from a dragon to be made into a shield, you shouldn't have to go collect blood from 5 more to make the temper to have it repaired. It shouldn't be a quest in and of itself to maintain your gear.

6) Skillup paths that require small steps because failures are assured, are uneconomical, and most importantly will net you NO SKILL UPS WHAT-SO-EVER.

7) Items must be equally desirable as looted drops and have reasonable merchant sell back value.

8) I'll toss this one in since it's a personal preference, but not imoho necessary. The best items in the game should be player crafted. I think it's great you killed uber_mob_01 for that l337 sw0r|> of g0|> sl4yi/\/g, but if you rip out its bones/teeth, wrap the hilt in it's skin, bind it with its ligaments, temper it in it's blood, and magically enchant it...I think that would probably be a bit more powerful than whatever sword it happened to be using when you gave it the beat down.

[pennyrose]

Hmmm...coming in late on this discussion, which I guess really asks "why do you like tradeskillin?" I think it is because of a sense of accomplishment (which I guess could be defined as fun).

My favorite tradeskill memories are of the very first time I succeeded on a particular combine, whether it was as simple as a poison vial or as involved as an Earring of Nature or as gratifying as my sole tradeskill trophy (in baking).

Where EQ succeeds regarding tradeskilling is in the wide variety of items it is possible to combine and the wide variety of components used, which may be dropped, foraged, purchased or subcombined. What it needs, of course, is even more storage. I hate selling an item that I suspect might be useful, but don't have room for.

Where it fails is, as people have noted, in the bottlenecks or "glass ceilings." I know that one of the few tradeskill items I refuse to make for folks is Wu's armor. I was so sick to death of making it (and of making heady kiola), I swore I would never make it again when it went trivial for me. Likewise, if I had not happened upon a generous guildmate who likes to make celestial essence for me, I might have given up tradeskills before now.

One other thing that bothers me, though I can see arguments both ways, is that many items I can make at my skill levels require no drop items or at least looted/foraged items from zones I cannot access yet. I am pretty much of a loner and not at all interested in hooking up with an uber guild so I can do the PoP zones or in leveling my L20 tinker up to L46 so she can maybe, with help, make it to the NPC merchant in PoI who is the only source of components she needs to advance further in tinkering.

And I don't know how it could be implemented, but I would LOVE to see a system where only someone who actually made an item could sell it. I hate it when I try to sell something at a reasonable price in Bazaar and the usual capitalists come along and buy it all, then put it on their trader at twice the price because they know they can get it. Sigh.

Anyhow, I'd be interested in seeing what system you wind up devising for your project.

Pennyrose

[Kcalehc]

On the subject of wear and tear I have had a few thoughts.
That everytime you swing your sword or your armour is hit by an opponent it stands a chance of being damaged (chip out of sword, chink in armour etc.) and this very slightly reduces its effectiveness.

So for example in EQ it would gain a delay point or lose a damage point, or have a loss of AC or minor stat degredation - but still remain useable.
Each item would also have a 'Break Point' a point after which the item is rendered essentially useless, and/or may even be destroyed.

This would allow the crafter the opportunity to be able to repair items continuously, as degredation occurs all the time. The higher their skill the better their repair for the cost of the raw materials needed to effect said repair.

[Longfoot Wispwoods]

I'm enjoying this thread!

One thing barely touched upon is the Bazaar. When I started Eq, there was no Bazaar. The system of buying and selling pretty much inhibited me from leveling up my toon, and forced me to sit around and watch long amounts of scroll for items to buy and to sell. In those days, I was more likely to get a nice item from an online friend, rather than actually buy something from a PC.

The Bazaar has been god-send for my play style.

I would suggest an improvement tho to the Bazaar. I think if there was a way that my trader could buy certain items in addition to selling, the quality of my play time would improve.

I don't want a trader that buys everything, of course. And, you'd have to protect the trader from being bankrupted by an 'eager' seller. How nice it would be tho, to return to my keyboard and see I have the 300-some components I need ready to make my next run of 20 Solstice Robe attempts.

This feature would also allow those who can't leave a trader online an opportunity to get market rates for the drops that they'd like to sell. In other words, they'd go into the Bazaar and be able to call up a screen to see if any trader is buying what they have to sell and at what price.

[Reflan]

I like the idea of being able to buy in the bazaar too. I've wanted that one for quite a while, but I bet it would put a lot more overhead on the servers.

And I've always liked the idea of item decay IF and only if you can repair your items for reasonable prices, and to their full. If you can only repair things to a certain percentage of their wholeness, as it worked in Diablo, I think, then you definitely will be playing strangely all the time -- bagging your best stuff whenever possible instead of being thrilled you got it and putting it to use. Also, on long long raids and camps -- anyone remember staying all weekend in Sky plane? -- your weapon could degrade a lot of the decay worked rapidly on items and armor, so you would want plenty of leeway, so that even a ferociously bad run of the random number generator wouldn't mean that your item got destroyed or seriously damaged too quickly.

I also think it would be nice if there were some sort of "secure" crafting area where NPC's provided security, kinda. Roleplay it up, but essentially make it so that if you give precious items to a tradeskiller to combine for you, he can't just log and steal your items. It could be a secure are, a secure zone, or even a secure kiln or forge or whatever. Obviously, there would be issues to work out, but they could be worked out.

Making it so that you get messages for failures and successes is a gigantic and long overdue improvement SOE made, but of course things aren't really secure yet. It would be very nice if when you handed over something precious, you weren't essentially flipping a coin over whether you'd ever get it back or not.

[Shandael]

My logic behind this is that if you want tradeskills, you have to give people a reason to do them, and in doing this, give people a reason to go out and get the stuff to make things that they absolutely have to have if they have any hope of venturing outside the newbie yard.

That's one of the reasons that I like to play Vah Shir characters. I really liked the idea that most classes, from the very start, all have tradeskill-oriented "rites of passages". And how each class, if they followed thier tradeskill branch needed each of the other classes talents in creating their own ultimate weapon.

It was a very welcome addition to EQ for me; using tradeskills to define the seperate classes in a society.