Suggestion/Vials of Mana and Skilling

[Zedd]

I don't know, I guess I've always thought of cultural armor as just that.....cultural. Some races I see no problem needing items infused with a magical essence that can only be provided by an enchanter. However some races that makes no sense for, at least to me. I mean what part of the Ogre's culture and lore has anything to with the arcane abilities. I don't see how something that is supposedly a product of their own culture can require components that is beyond their race as a whole.

Did that make sense at all?,
Zedd-Wizard of the 63rd fizzle

[Labios]

Hehe I have never been twitched on my bard, but mod rods only take HP, they don't give bards mana. :?

[Marteeny]

Not quite that easy - busting out a ranger so that I could forage and do a bit of silk/pelt farming was fairly easy - just park the sucker in EC or EK (depending on what I'm looking for) and let it run around and kill stuff while foraging - doen't make it feel like as much of a time sink with the character that way.

You know, that is what I thought at first. I created a wood-elf ranger so I even started with a skill of 50 in forage. It was discouraging to say the least. By the time I had finished level 9, I had 2 Morning Dew. 50 foraging just does not cut it when you need rare forages.

Banging out a chanter just to do mana is something entirely different though - you need to get some real levels on that sucker to do some of the higher end mana so unless you've got a good way to PL it nice and fast, then the time and expense of leveling and equipping that toon are going to override the mana savings and ease you get by having it - I've only got a chanter because I want to play an enchanter.

What about those Dragon/Drake eggs? Yew leaves? Branches of planar oak? How are you going to get a lvl 6 ranger to forage these? What if you need something foraged from the PoP? There are a lot of forages that are unobtainable until certain levels. At level 12 an Enchanter can make vials of viscous mana. This is what 90% of the mana market is for.

My Enchanter is only level 41. There were numerous times when I needed Vials of distilled mana (before I was 39), and purified mana(lvl 49 spell). Did I complain that I should be able to make them through an alternative route? No, I sucked it up and payed a higher lvl Enchanter for their time. I am currently making High Elf cutural armor which requires enchanted Mithril(lvl 49 spell). How do I get it enchanted? I pay an Enchanter for their time.

Why is it so difficult for people to accept the fact that different classes have abilities that others don't?

[Garulf]

Why is it so difficult for people to accept the fact that different classes have abilities that others don't?

No one is complaining that classes are different, they are complaining that you *NEED* an enchanter for all high end tradeskill items. And tradeskills are supposed to be available equally to everyone.

Look at it this way, suppose you had to track down a dwarven player to have them use a racial skill to mine ore, every time you wanted to do ANY blacksmithing? Even the Ogres and Dark Elves would have to find a willing (or unwilling) dwarf to mine their adamantite so they can make their cultural armor?

Right now, for high end tradeskills it's exactly this situation, but with mana vials, if you want to do any of them, you have to own or hire a player class (enchanter) to make your tradeskill component for you. There is *NO* alternative. Yes, you CAN skillup all (or most) tradeskills without having to use mana vials, even to 250 skill, but you can't make anything useful with almost all of them without an enchanter being involved. The only exceptions I can think of are baking (for most of the high end stuff), and the tradeskills that aren't part of the big 7 (Alchemy, Tinkering, Research, Make poison, fishing).

VI needs to set this up like they did poison vials, you can buy them off the vendors, or you can save yourself some money at the expense of time, and potter up the vials yourself. You should be able to buy these vials off a vendor, or save yourself some substantial money and get a player (or your own character) to make your own mana vials.

I've seen vials of viscous mana for sale on merchants (that another player sold to them), for 21ish plat eash, they cost less than 6 plat to make (plus mana for casting the spell). At similar markups, clear mana would cost 49 plat each, distilled would cost 738 plat each, and purified would cost about 1920 plat each. Considering what you can make with each of these, those are not unreasonable costs (except on the low end, 21 pp per Wu's attempt is a bit steep). This would have the added advantage that players would now have a firm mark to beat when making/selling their own vials. SO except when making a massive number of combines, it would be cheaper to go to the bazaar and shop up your vials. Or cheaper yet to make them yourself.

Basically, people are complaining that the bottleneck for upper end tradeskills is not the supply of mob drops/forages/plat, it's getting a chanter willing to do the things needed for you to make your combines. It's not equitable, it's not fair, and it's not realistic, it needs to change.[/quote]

[Marteeny]

No one is complaining that classes are different, they are complaining that you *NEED* an enchanter for all high end tradeskill items. And tradeskills are supposed to be available equally to everyone.

First: You do not *NEED* mana vials for *ALL* high end recipes. Exaggeration is not a valid argument.

Second: How is this different from the fact that you *NEED* a Druid/Ranger? There are many more recipes that require foraged things compared to mana vials.

VI needs to set this up like they did poison vials, you can buy them off the vendors, or you can save yourself some money at the expense of time, and potter up the vials yourself. You should be able to buy these vials off a vendor, or save yourself some substantial money and get a player (or your own character) to make your own mana vials.

I've seen vials of viscous mana for sale on merchants (that another player sold to them), for 21ish plat eash, they cost less than 6 plat to make (plus mana for casting the spell). At similar markups, clear mana would cost 49 plat each, distilled would cost 738 plat each, and purified would cost about 1920 plat each. Considering what you can make with each of these, those are not unreasonable costs (except on the low end, 21 pp per Wu's attempt is a bit steep). This would have the added advantage that players would now have a firm mark to beat when making/selling their own vials. SO except when making a massive number of combines, it would be cheaper to go to the bazaar and shop up your vials. Or cheaper yet to make them yourself.

So should they open up a merchant that sells foraged goods as well? It would only be fair to those of us who cannot forage. Why should we have to rely on foraging classes to make our items that

are supposed to be available equally to everyone

Btw, at the prices you listed above, you would have Enchanters fighting over who gets to make the mana vials for you. You can find most vials in the bazaar for 1/3 to 1/2 of the prices you listed. (Well on my server anyway. That very well could vary)

Basically, people are complaining that the bottleneck for upper end tradeskills is not the supply of mob drops/forages/plat, it's getting a chanter willing to do the things needed for you to make your combines. It's not equitable, it's not fair, and it's not realistic, it needs to change.

That is completely rediculous. If I needed something from a high level Enchanter, it has never taken more than an hour simply by auctioning for their service in PoK. There have been many times when I have been unable to do combines due to lack of foraged/dropped supplies. Auctioning for hours, and constantly monitoring the bazaar cannot guarantee you will find that rare forage. I guarantee it is easier to find a bored Enchanter who would like to make a little extra $$.

[Nolequen]

[quote="Marteeny"]

First: You do not *NEED* mana vials for *ALL* high end recipes. Exaggeration is not a valid argument.

True.

Second: How is this different from the fact that you *NEED* a Druid/Ranger? There are many more recipes that require foraged things compared to mana vials.

Well, this is the essence of the debate, right? You need one class (Enchanter) versus 3 classes (Druid, Ranger, Bard) or a WE Warrior or Rogue. The point isn't that it is somewhat restricted, but that it is completely restricted (heaps [a teaspoon is practically a tablespoon] isn't a valid argument either).

That is completely rediculous. If I needed something from a high level Enchanter, it has never taken more than an hour simply by auctioning for their service in PoK. There have been many times when I have been unable to do combines due to lack of foraged/dropped supplies. Auctioning for hours, and constantly monitoring the bazaar cannot guarantee you will find that rare forage. I guarantee it is easier to find a bored Enchanter who would like to make a little extra $$.

Well, I don't know if I would equate vials of mana with a "rare forage." I'm not familiar with all the tradeskill recipes seems to me that in the middle ranges, vials pop up more often in tailoring than rare forages. I also know that the forages for the MTP are not rare at all.

I don't know how I feel about this issue, but it seems clear to me that simply comparing foraging to enchanting is not workable. Too many classes/races get forage as compared to creating vials of mana. In addition, a level 1 WE can forage, a level 1 enchanter cannot create vials of mana. The difference may seem small to you if you are an enchanter, but they are differences nonetheless and so make the analogy less workable. To put it another way, the bottleneck issue seems to work in two ways: one is a time bottleneck and the other is a class bottleneck. Incidentally, I have never seen anyone WTB a rare forage in the bazaar or the nexus.

Nolequen

[Marteeny]

I don't know how I feel about this issue, but it seems clear to me that simply comparing foraging to enchanting is not workable. Too many classes/races get forage as compared to creating vials of mana.

You are correct that Bards, WE rogues and, WE warriors can forage. The problem is that with a skill of 50 or 55, sure you can scrounge up the occasional root or pod of water, but you will still be better off buying the rare forages from other players. (have you ever used a forager with a 50 skill?) You would have better luck making Mistletoe sickles with smithing skill at 100. So if you only count Druids and Rangers (since they can go to 200), there are 7 race/class combos that have this ability. Enchanters have 5 race/class combos. That is a minor difference.

In addition, a level 1 WE can forage, a level 1 enchanter cannot create vials of mana. The difference may seem small to you if you are an enchanter, but they are differences nonetheless and so make the analogy less workable.

Yes a lvl 1 WE can forage, but with what success? And in what zones? If you think that foraging is not level restricted, you are wrong. Let's see you forage some Justice fruit with that lvl 1 WE. Do you see a lot of lvl 1 characters in Western Wastes just running around foraging without a problem?

How long does it take to get an Enchanter to level 12? Not long at all. That is the level needed to make viscous mana which is used in Wu's. This is 90% of the mana market. Yes, the higher end mana requires you to be as high as level 49, but for some forages, you are required to be level 46. Difference of 3 levels is minimal.

Incidentally, I have never seen anyone WTB a rare forage in the bazaar or the nexus.

Are you serious? Do you not have any tailors/smiths/brewers/bakers on your server?

[Heimdall]

Saying that everyone should have same access to tradeskills is silly. Its is exactly as saying that every class/race should be able to forage, imbue, summon, farm, enchant. Some classes are good for some things, and other classes for others. It is how it should be.

Consider this: In real world, a car manufacturer does not make their own stereo that they use. They have to contract outside company to do it for them. Can you possibly buy a new car without stereo of any kind? No. Stereo MUST be present before the car goes to dealers. Countless products are made by using outside resources. It is exactly the same with high-end tradeskills. You "contract" another class for an item to help you finish your end product. Situation on mana vials, forages, imbues and enchants is how it should be. If you dont want to look for a contractor, then make one yourself or don't make that product. No one forces you to do high-end cultural

I find it hard to belive that there are so many people that feel that SoE *owes* them easy, cheap and simple skill-up paths in every tradeskill and easily attainable uber gear. There should be no such thing. If anything, tradeskills should be nerfed to stop proliferation of high-end items that is getting out of hand. Look at how many high-end trade skill items entering the market right now, compared to drop items of same quality. Tradeskills should augument the game and add something extra, rather than completely take over. How many drop bows are as easy to come by in game as Nightmarewood (about 3k now?), how about armor? Tradeskill drops and successes should be considered as bonus rather than something thats expected.

[Nolequen]

[quote="Marteeny"]

(have you ever used a forager with a 50 skill?) You would have better luck making Mistletoe sickles with smithing skill at 100. So if you only count Druids and Rangers (since they can go to 200), there are 7 race/class combos that have this ability. Enchanters have 5 race/class combos. That is a minor difference.

OF COURSE I HAVE FORAGED AT a skill of 50. Have you enchanted vials at lvl 12? To quote Thrakazog, "Now you are being silly." And heaps is still heaps. 5 and 7 are different numbers. The question is the overall size of the number pool. If there are thousands of possibilities, 5 and 7 are fairly close. If there are dozens of possibilities, 5 and 7 are not so close. If there are only 7 possibilities, 5 and 7 are quite different. As is 1 and 2 or 1 and 5. My point is that in a fairly small pool, you can't just say 5 and 7 are practically the same thing. Still a fallacy and not a valid argument. Of course we could do server population counts and get down to the absolute number of each group, but that is still ignoring the point that there are two bottlenecks not just one. At any rate, before we end up in the PSR, let me say that you can forage vegies and fruit (as well as cabbages and plains pebbles) at that skill. So there is your MTP.

Yes a lvl 1 WE can forage, but with what success? And in what zones? If you think that foraging is not level restricted, you are wrong. Let's see you forage some Justice fruit with that lvl 1 WE. Do you see a lot of lvl 1 characters in Western Wastes just running around foraging without a problem?

Well, I have seen them (and done it myself, frankly) in Kithicor. Got my first oak bark that way. Also got my epic forages from Gfay and Misty Thicket at about that level--I wasn't paying attention to the level of my forage, but I was too low to recognize what they were. Again, are you comparing Justice Fruit to viscous mana? And, again, of course a lvl one cannot get into the Planes of Justice to forage, so I haven't seen it. What is your point? How many lvl 12 enchanters walk into PoJ or the brownie camp to buy the spell for that matter? More or less than the number of lvl ones with forage?

Incidentally, I have never seen anyone WTB a rare forage in the bazaar or the nexus.

Are you serious? Do you not have any tailors/smiths/brewers/bakers on your server?

Yes. I am serious. Yes. I do have tailors/smiths/brewers/bakers on my server. I even spend quite a bit of time in the bazar (though I don't sit in the nexus much). I do sell foraged goods in the bazaar, but I have never seen anyone ask for them or ask for more of them when they buy from me.

AGAIN, let me repeat that I don't know how I feel about this issue (a luxury, perhaps given that I play a druid and my wife plays an enchanter), but I still believe that foraging and enchanting vials are not comparable.

Nolequen
[edited to clean up the discussion of uncompared numbers]

[Lilosh]

To quote Thrakazog, "Now you are being silly."

Tick: "Susan?"
Thrakazog: "Now you're doing it on purpose. How juvenille"


-Lilosh

[Nolequen]

Tick: "Susan?"
Thrakazog: "Now you're doing it on purpose. How juvenille"

Doh. Yes, that is right. Dagnabit, why won't they release the Tick (or Freakazoid! for that matter) on DVD?
Three yaks and a dog to the person who gets them to release the Tick on DVD.

ObThreadComment: Uh, we have to watch something while pounding out all those trivial combines, vials of mana, etc or while sitting in a zone and foraging, right?
Nolequen

[Marteeny]

My point is that in a fairly small pool, you can't just say 5 and 7 are practically the same thing.

With over 80 race/class combos, I believe it would be under a 3% difference.

Again, are you comparing Justice Fruit to viscous mana? And, again, of course a lvl one cannot get into the Planes of Justice to forage, so I haven't seen it. What is your point?

My only point here is that there are level restrictions on being able to get certain forages.

AGAIN, let me repeat that I don't know how I feel about this issue (a luxury, perhaps given that I play a druid and my wife plays an enchanter), but I still believe that foraging and enchanting vials are not comparable.

I (of course) disagree with them not being comparable. I feel they are very comparable in the following ways.
Both mana vials and forages are required for many tradeskill recipes.
Availability to both is very restricted by race/class. (With mana vials being a bit more restricted)
I think it would be a shame to see either item available by merchants.